Loose Lugs and aftermath

WantingaTDI

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There is a question for the forum at the end of the post.

I bought tires from Costco a few years ago and they have a free tire rotation service and fixing leaks etc. I brought my car in at the end of December to have a leak fixed in one tire and the tires rotated. A week later I was driving on the highway and the front driver side wheel started wobbling violently, the steering was off. I used all strength to pull the car to the side of the road. The front driver side wheel was tiled at a 15" angle downward and all by 1/2 a lug nut bolt holding the wheel on.

Quick thinking on my part, I looked up the nearest Costco and (2 miles away). I jacked the car up on the side of the road, removed the wheel inspected for damage and identified the following: 1. Two oblong lug nut holes in the alloy wheel and 2. the brake caliper had come free from the wheel. I removed one lug nut from the other three wheels and put them on the front driver side wheel and drove to Costco two miles away.

Upon getting there the manager of the tire shop as well as the assistant manager of Costoco were summoned to the tire stop to inspect the damage. The manager assured me Costco would pay for the damage. Because of unknown damage, they requested I have the car towed to a garage of my choosing. I found a VW dealership three miles from their location (I was 60 miles from my house) and had the car towed there.

The dealership found the following wrong with the car and a result of the the ordeal. The hub needed to be replaced because the "sleeves" for the lug bolts had been stripped, a new wheel was needed because of the oblong hols, the caliper bolt had stripped out and the brake pads and rotors had warped.

1.[FONT=&quot] LUG NUTS AND HUB REPLACEMENT $355.00[/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. NEW WHEEL $375.00[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. THREAD CALIPER BOLTS $360.00[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. FRONT BRAKE PADS AND ROTORS $525.00[/FONT]


The third party Costco claims adjuster (Gallagher Bassett) calls me and first is not willing to take any liability. After talking with the adjuster's supervisor, they admit limited liability for the first two items. They denied liability for # 3-4 and said this was not their responsibility


Please let me know your thoughts on whether the stripped brake caliper bolts and warping could be caused by driving with a wheel at a 15 degree angle.





Thanks for your help.
-Mark


Here is a photo of the wheel. The other parts were not retained by VW
https://mark.seltzer.org/photo/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Screenshot_20190120-082842.png
 
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WildChild80

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Unless you're willing to get a lawyer and pressure them in that manner, I'd say take the money and run, maybe see if they'll supplement some of the brake parts but nobody can prove what condition the lug threads were in when you took them the car...yes I know everything was fine when you dropped the car off but you have to expect them to dodge liability like Clinton dodged the draft...

Take the money and get a new wheel and hub assembly and source the rest of the parts from a pick a part yard and diesel on...that's what I'd do, but I usually take wheels to get tires put on and not let anyone install or remove them for this reason...

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Genesis

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A rotor and pads is cheap. The caliper is more money but I'd go to a pick-and-pull and source one, replace it that way.

I agree with the above -- take the money, get the new wheel and hub assembly, and replace the caliper and rotor yourself. They know it's not worth suing them over the rest but I wouldn't take the ram-job the stealer wants on those parts -- that's ridiculously overpriced.
 

Nero Morg

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The rotor is pinched between the hub and the wheel, that's what holds it straight. If the wheel came loose the rotor will be at an angle and fubar it and the pads. At this point it's like what other people said. Either lawyer up for small claims or take the money and run. Or go to the news.
 

WildChild80

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It's not their first time getting sued and they probably use trend analysis to know what they'll have to pay...

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eddieleephd

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The law suit is for the danger they put you in, not the parts and labor which are included because they failed to provide you with adequate service that you paid for. This is when Cosco, whom I would never let touch my car, gets to pay the stealership for repairs and parts.
Ultimate lesson is not to trust a retail chain touch your car. That's for automotive chains NTB with the 3 year alignment, Newbridge Tire my local tire store, and my trusted mechanic who is Daniel Grindstaff over at Appalachian Diesel Works.
No one else but me touches my car whatsoever!


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WildChild80

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The law suit is for the danger they put you in, not the parts and labor which are included because they failed to provide you with adequate service that you paid for. This is when Cosco, whom I would never let touch my car, gets to pay the stealership for repairs and parts.
Ultimate lesson is not to trust a retail chain touch your car. That's for automotive chains NTB with the 3 year alignment, Newbridge Tire my local tire store, and my trusted mechanic who is Daniel Grindstaff over at Appalachian Diesel Works.
No one else but me touches my car whatsoever!


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Small claims would to be to restore your car to the condition it was prior to taking it to them, danger would be on top of that.

I totally agree, there are literally a handful of people in the world I would let drive my car much less work on it

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WantingaTDI

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Regarding the first few comments recommending I repair it myself, I was stuck between a rock and a hard place, the car was at Volkswagen for the assessment after the wheel came loose on the highway. I would have had to tow it home and replace the hub, brakes and wheel myself. It was not safe to drive 60 miles with the brake caliper, wheel and lug nut sleeves stripped. I also was planning a road trip to NH and needed the car.


So given that I have paid the dealership a kings ransom, I would like to recoup the costs based on the damage sustained. If I need to bring them to small claims court for the cost of the damage, I will. If I accept their offer for settlement I would be $486 in the red. I will need to find an expert who can attest to what @Nero Morg said regarding the rotor angle etc:

The rotor is pinched between the hub and the wheel, that's what holds it straight. If the wheel came loose the rotor will be at an angle and fubar it and the pads.
 
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mrfiat

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Just take the money. You can easily repair of all the damage for way less than what they are offering you. (If you do the work yourself)
 

Nero Morg

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What I find odd about this situation is I've seen several lube shops and tire shops that have policies in place to have another tech check the torque of the lug nuts after every job. I know for a fact the Firestone I always go to for tires and alignments does. I'd never go to a Costco, jiffy lube, or Wal mart service centers. Seen too many cars get ruined by quick lube shops.
 

mk3

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This is all their liability, I know if I were in this situation I would not settle.
member Nero Morg had it right.

Again,
The wheel holds the rotor to the hub (except for a tiny M5 screw that helps locate the rotor for maintenance - no match for these forces). I expect that when you stopped the brake caliper grabbed hold of the rotor and since it was not secured to the hub it had nothing to hold it square and the next most rigid thing is the caliper bolts which bore the load or at least tried to.

Instead of settling for less ask for more. Did they also pay for the use of a rental car while you were lacking yours? Did you pay out of pocket for one - they should also be paying that.

no such thing as "expert" imo but virtually of the members here are qualified to understand what happened here because it's really not all that mysterious.

Did the adjuster give any line of reasoning why they think they are not responsible?
 

Nero Morg

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Short list of what I would ask for
-tow reimbursement
-rental car fees for x amount of days without your car
-new caliper
-new hub
-new wheel
-new brake pads and both front rotors
-lugnuts
-maybe a settlement

I personally would push for the other rotor, just because if they slap one rotor on and only brake pads to the affected wheel, you could have uneven braking power, which you didn't have before.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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If you've still got your '03 the front calipers bolt directly to the steering knuckle. I'd wonder if the threads/bolt holes in the knuckle suffered damage. You may find you can't tighten down the new caliper and the knuckle needs replacement.
 

mk3

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Short list of what I would ask for
....

I personally would push for the other rotor, just because if they slap one rotor on and only brake pads to the affected wheel, you could have uneven braking power, which you didn't have before.
YES, with pads! (and the rest of that list as well)

forgot that mechanics like to recommend replacing calipers in pairs even though there isn't a great reason for it (caliper alone doesn't affect braking force significantly) but the braking response should be the same materials on both sides so pads and rotors should be replaced in pairs.
 
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WantingaTDI

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If you've still got your '03 the front calipers bolt directly to the steering knuckle. I'd wonder if the threads/bolt holes in the knuckle suffered damage. You may find you can't tighten down the new caliper and the knuckle needs replacement.
You are correct. The nuckel suffered damage and VW re-thread it as part of the repair. I haven't looked at the actual repair to see if they used a larger bolt. (Which would be my guess.)

Here is the message from the Costco thrid party claims adjuster with their initial justification. In subsequent conversations he agreed to revisit the amout they are willing to pay with justification on how the caliper etc is related. This is why I wanted feedback from the forum.

At this time, we would only consider the following;

“LUG NUTS AND HUB REPLACEMENT $355.00”

“NEW WHEEL $375.00”

-Total: $730 + Tax (.06%) = $773.80

Additionally, as discussed, we are willing to cover the full amount of your rental used during scheduled repairs for $135.27, which includes the additional repair time for the braking system, which is not owed.


At this time, we are willing to offer $909.07 for damages caused during service, however, we would be unable to offer additional compensation for the unrelated damages presented. Should you wish to accept this offer, or if you have any additional questions or concerns, please reach out to me at your earliest convenience.
 

Nero Morg

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"Unrelated damage."

I didn't realize this was comedy hour.
 

Caddy 16v

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Ummm, did you re torque the wheel bolts after about 60miles/ 100km? That's standard practice, either you do it or they do it for free, but maybe that's not a common thing in the US and A?

I'd blame myself before I'd blame anyone else.
 

mk3

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Ummm, did you re torque the wheel bolts after about 60miles/ 100km? That's standard practice, either you do it or they do it for free, but maybe that's not a common thing in the US and A?

I'd blame myself before I'd blame anyone else.
The owner is not to blame.

If you tighten the bolts properly one time that is all that is required. This isn't a leather belt with holes punched in it. I guess that 'tighten after xx' is put in place in some documents for the lawyers to use and I've seen it on my paperwork and always ignore it. There are hundreds of bolts in that car and many are critical to function. They are installed and tightened at the factory exactly one time.

The bolts are elastic and the wheel's material is elastic so when they are tightened the proper amount there is a surplus of elasticity causing pressure between the two parts. There may be a slight amount of embedding after the initial tightening and a little bit of unwinding of the bolt to release the torsion that was built up but the joint will still be tight.

Alloy wheels as compared to steel wheels *might* have a little bit less elasticity in them and this can be felt by how the torque builds up as you turn the bolt in. This is no reason, however, that the wheel should fall off. how many millions of wheels are running around the road every day.

Personally, I do all my own tire rotations, have taken my wheels off countless times and I use a torque wrench for installation. Using a torque wrench I have tightened the lug bolts much LESS than what a mechanic or tire shop would do (I use 80 ft lbf). In my experience (one very recently) mechanics have always over-tightened the bolts. From their perspective I am under-tightening my lug bolts yet they have never come loose and certainly have never fallen off.

At my work I wrote the torque specifications that many of our products go by and I so I know how these calculations are performed and how the joint works. I am NOT an expert but do have some knowledge.
 

Genesis

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Yep -- the "retorque" thing is a pure CYA for the dude that does it wrong in the first place. With an actual torque wrench used to properly tighten the lugs in a star pattern (NOT an air-driven impact) they won't come loose. I do my own rotations and have NEVER had a lug loose, say much less "come off", the next time I went to remove it.
 

WantingaTDI

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Following up--
I shared your comments with the company representing Costco and they are asking for credentials of the poster and giving me a hard time stating that they disagree with your assertions (mk3, and Nero Morg). I have asked for Costco's experts credentials and have not provided them.



I meanwhile have asked Fitzgerald Volkswagen's mechanic (where the car was taken) to write up a statement as VW agreethe damage to the brakes, rotors and caliper bolt was cause by the wheel falling off. They are taking a long time to get back to me.


I meanwhile wrote a letter to the president of Costco.


I will let you know the outcome.


Thanks,
 

Nero Morg

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I don't have any ASEs, but I do have my associates in Diesel science technology, with a minor in heavy duty and automotive.

Come on costco. It's not rocket science.
 

BobnOH

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Well send him your credentials (resume), though I believe CostCo is just giving the run around. Guessing in the end, they may reimburse for parts, but it'll be like pulling teeth.
 

WantingaTDI

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I'll let you know. I sent a letter to the president of Costco. If VW doesn't come through providing an "expert report" and the pres does not provide a positive response, I will ask for assistance from Nero Mog.
 

20IndigoBlue02

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People don't check the torque on the lug bolts after they drive about 20 miles?

When I put my 3-season wheels on or get service that requires removing the wheel(s), I always check the torque with a torque wrench. They usually require a slight tightening after an initial drive

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Nero Morg

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I never have, and never had an issue. I do make sure the hub and seat for the rim are clean so it sits flush, and use petrolium based anti sieze on the lugs. Not the silver stuff, looks like a pasty white stuff.
 

ratkc135

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People don't check the torque on the lug bolts after they drive about 20 miles?

When I put my 3-season wheels on or get service that requires removing the wheel(s), I always check the torque with a torque wrench. They usually require a slight tightening after an initial drive

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Ditto. Be it on my Jetta or trailers; I find in most cases 50-75% of the lugs need a little more tightening after the initial install.



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mk3

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Ditto. Be it on my Jetta or trailers; I find in most cases 50-75% of the lugs need a little more tightening after the initial install.



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The possibility that a second tightening event is possible doesn't mean that the joint "needed" it. It just means that it is possible to go tighter.

This is the case for nearly every joint I have ever tightened. if I wait one day and turn the wrench again there is a possibility it will turn a little more ( I studied this at work about 15 years ago). if I turn the wrench up it will go a little more (which of course seems obvious). if "more" means that something was too loose then we would never be satisfied until the bolts were twisted off.

It is not reasonable that a wheel will fall off after driving away from a service shop just because someone didn't re-tighten - wheels would be coming off all over the place.

The original torque specification will have headroom for tolerances, embedding and twist of the bolt.
 

20IndigoBlue02

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I never have, and never had an issue. I do make sure the hub and seat for the rim are clean so it sits flush, and use petrolium based anti sieze on the lugs. Not the silver stuff, looks like a pasty white stuff.
Since you are lubing the threads, are you torquing to 89 lb-ft? If so, you are over-torquing

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