injector bodies which are best pd 1.9

Then just an injector upgrade to PD150s and retune I gained 23 hp. Granted different day different dyno and TDTuning tuning ECU was in the car, but only two things changed on the car.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0-8L1Mz1S8

Drivbiwire said:

Have you ever heard of a stock 90hp TDI getting 150hp with a chip alone? (Or even with the most extreme mods for that matter)

The PD does have the ability flow over a wider range than the older VE TDI,

Click to expand...

150 hp on stock PD injectors is routine.

Not on ALH though

3L3M3NT said:

I hate to burst your bubble, but I dynoed my car on my stock PD injectors and got to exactly 150 hp.

Click to expand...

Hate to burst YOUR bubble but the stock PUMP DUSE INJECTOR base nozzle flows a significant amount more fuel than the previous generation 90hp 706 nozzle.

The nozzle you are using to get 150HP is the
DSLA 150P 1362 NOT the DSLA 150P 706

Your engine is also rated at 15 more hp stock than the ALH engine.

If you take the Nozzle flow difference between those two, the ALH getting 135hp with a tune is exactly at the same output per unit of flow as your engine putting out 150hp.

At 150hp, what are your EGT's on a sustained full throttle run... Also look at your solenoid times, they are just about if not completely maxed out to get that level or power.

Its not magic or skill to get maximum output from the motor, just keep in mind that with that kind of output from a stock nozzle, you WILL melt something or crack a head with sustained operation at that power level... Its not a reflection of the tune or tuner, just the fundamentals of the engine that put you in that danger zone.

That stock nozzles relatively slow flow rate and duration for higher output exaggerates the peak combustion pressure due to excess advance, and the resulting duration of the injection event exposes the combustion bowl to far higher thermal stress where the spray pattern can burn the bowl ridge...Don't believe me?

If you think you can't melt a motor on a stock PD injector, think again...

3L3M3NT said:

Then just an injector upgrade to PD150s and retune I gained 23 hp.

Click to expand...

Thanks for supporting what I clearly stated, and that is the PD150 with a tune is a 175'ish HP mod with a conservative tune... Your dyno was what 173 at its best?

Where is the 235hp? See my point?

Those injectors (PD150) are designed to choke the flow at the higher rpm range, as you push them to deliver more fuel, the internal passages work against you.

Try getting 190hp from them, and watch your turbo temps and injector trigger times...Its not good.

Everything you posted is spot on in terms of how your car should be responding, its appears to be in good working order and the injectors are performing exactly to the flow predictions of the design.

KERMA said:

150 hp on stock PD injectors is routine.
Not on ALH though

Click to expand...

Drivbiwire said:

Hate to burst YOUR bubble but the stock PUMP DUSE INJECTOR base nozzle flows a significant amount more fuel than the previous generation 90hp 706 nozzle.

The nozzle you are using to get 150HP is the
DSLA 150P 1362 NOT the DSLA 150P 706

Your engine is also rated at 15 more hp stock than the ALH engine.

If you take the Nozzle flow difference between those two, the ALH getting 135hp with a tune is exactly at the same output per unit of flow as your engine putting out 150hp.

At 150hp, what are your EGT's on a sustained full throttle run... Also look at your solenoid times, they are just about if not completely maxed out to get that level or power.

Its not magic or skill to get maximum output from the motor, just keep in mind that with that kind of output from a stock nozzle, you WILL melt something or crack a head with sustained operation at that power level... Its not a reflection of the tune or tuner, just the fundamentals of the engine that put you in that danger zone.

That stock nozzles relatively slow flow rate and duration for higher output exaggerates the peak combustion pressure due to excess advance, and the resulting duration of the injection event exposes the combustion bowl to far higher thermal stress where the spray pattern can burn the bowl ridge...Don't believe me?

If you think you can't melt a motor on a stock PD injector, think again...

Click to expand...

Drivbiwire said:

Thanks for supporting what I clearly stated, and that is the PD150 with a tune is a 175'ish HP mod with a conservative tune... Your dyno was what 173 at its best?

Where is the 235hp? See my point?

Those injectors (PD150) are designed to choke the flow at the higher rpm range, as you push them to deliver more fuel, the internal passages work against you.

Try getting 190hp from them, and watch your turbo temps and injector trigger times...Its not good.

Everything you posted is spot on in terms of how your car should be responding, its appears to be in good working order and the injectors are performing exactly to the flow predictions of the design.

Click to expand...

Why are you guys talking about ALH nozzles in a PD injector thread to begin with.
That's the topic, so why are you even bothering to bring that up.

Drivbiwire mentioned that not even modded TDIs could make 150 hp in a thread talking about PD injectors, so that's why I posted what I did.

So lets stick to PD injectors and the PD motor, since that's what the op is about.

The 235 hp they're talking about is BHP!

With more than a 17/22 you can get plenty more power out of PD150 injectors. With a GTB2260VK you can make 200 whp or 235 bhp.

Here is a dyno chart of what a GTB1756VK with PD150s can do in this thread.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=367841&highlight=Darkside
Another thread where the car made 200 whp/235 bhp
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=443494

I'm searching for another thread where the guy dynoed at 199 whp with a GTB2260VK turbo.

Can I ask this question again?
I could find any answers on the internet

The european version of the BEW body..is it really ATD/AXR ? Because I read somewhere that the AXR/ATD bodies are the old ones...

Can anyone confirm this?

Perhaps an OEM number for the same bodies which I can find here in Europe?

Get me the Bosch Part number

Drivbiwire said:

Get me the Bosch Part number

Click to expand...

All I could find is the part number of the BEW injectors:

038 130 073 AG

but is an old number I think..

I really dont know if BEW injectorbodies will fit in my ARL engine..

3L3M3NT said:

Why are you guys talking about ALH nozzles in a PD injector thread to begin with.
That's the topic, so why are you even bothering to bring that up.

Click to expand...

It's relevant because it allows people reading this to make the association of flow and power, as stated its a "REFERENCE".

Drivbiwire mentioned that not even modded TDIs could make 150 hp in a thread talking about PD injectors, so that's why I posted what I did.

Click to expand...

And your engine produced EXACTLY (okay, slightly less than) what is predicted based on the injector flow.

So lets stick to PD injectors and the PD motor, since that's what the op is about.

The 235 hp they're talking about is BHP!

Click to expand...

Notice that in the following links the engines NEVER made 235hp at the wheels... Any claims of power come purely based on what actually makes it to the road, anything else is mythical unicorns and fodder for speculation.

With more than a 17/22 you can get plenty more power out of PD150 injectors. With a GTB2260VK you can make 200 whp or 235 bhp.

Click to expand...

I'd love to hear the explanation of how any turbo is going to increase nozzle fuel flow to produce 50-85 more hp, really, I gotta hear this...

200hp at the wheels is exceeding the limits of the pistons and the crank angle using the PD150. The combustion is occurring too late in the crank window at that power level with a nozzle that flows in that range to safely operate without burning the piston bowl ridge. It will make that power on short bursts but its not something you want to do more than a few times. Its a lot like a Nitro Drag car, they can make 4000hp, but not for very long...

Fullhouse said:

All I could find is the part number of the BEW injectors:

038 130 073 AG

but is an old number I think..

I really dont know if BEW injectorbodies will fit in my ARL engine..

Click to expand...

Perfect, that's what I needed.

The Bosch Part number for that Unit Injector is: 0 414 720 215

It's a Version 1.1 PDE which has the large 8.0mm plunger without the restriction channel. It was intended for the lower emissions engines and lower output by virtue of being throttled by the nozzle.

Yes it is a direct replacement for the BEW and again it DOES NOT have the flow restriction channel. That will outflow the PD 150 by 15-18% depending on who you talk to and of course depending on the nozzle / flow range you select.

Drivbiwire said:

Perfect, that's what I needed.

The Bosch Part number for that Unit Injector is: 0 414 720 215

It's a Version 1.1 PDE which has the large 8.0mm plunger without the restriction channel. It was intended for the lower emissions engines and lower output by virtue of being throttled by the nozzle.

Yes it is a direct replacement for the BEW and again it DOES NOT have the flow restriction channel. That will outflow the PD 150 by 15-18% depending on who you talk to and of course depending on the nozzle / flow range you select.

Click to expand...

Many many thanks !!

I will search for AXR(european) (BEW US) bodies..
Then I will put r783 nozzles and will place them in my ARL engine..(I hope it will fit)

Drivbiwire said:

It's relevant because it allows people reading this to make the association of flow and power, as stated its a "REFERENCE".
And your engine produced EXACTLY (okay, slightly less than) what is predicted based on the injector flow.
Notice that in the following links the engines NEVER made 235hp at the wheels... Any claims of power come purely based on what actually makes it to the road, anything else is mythical unicorns and fodder for speculation.
I'd love to hear the explanation of how any turbo is going to increase nozzle fuel flow to produce 50-85 more hp, really, I gotta hear this...
200hp at the wheels is exceeding the limits of the pistons and the crank angle using the PD150. The combustion is occurring too late in the crank window at that power level with a nozzle that flows in that range to safely operate without burning the piston bowl ridge. It will make that power on short bursts but its not something you want to do more than a few times. Its a lot like a Nitro Drag car, they can make 4000hp, but not for very long...

Click to expand...

With a more modern turbo you're able to increase the volume of air going to the engine thus creating a more complete burn of the fuel that is getting injected. Thus increasing the efficiency of the engine and creating more power.

I'm not sure how you of all people has to have this explained to you...

I'm sure there are plenty of 200 whp/235 bhp PDs running around Europe and not batting an eye.

I'm having a Dyno Day September 12th, so put up or shut up time.

So, if you truly want to back up your claim that BEW injectors flow 15-18% more than PD150 injectors send me a set of both injectors set up with the exact same nozzles for either my 04 BEW Jetta, that already has PD150s in it or my RTDI that is pushing close to 300 whp and 450 ft/lbs on a 1.9 PD bored out to 2.0 with BEW injectors with +80% Firad Nozzles in it currently or a set of PD150 injectors with +120% Firad nozzles on them waiting to go in.

Both cars will be there and if you want to fly out and do the injector swap yourself you're more than welcome to attend to make sure they're setup to your liking, that way you can't cry foul.

I'll see if Mike at TD Tuning would be willing to help me out with tuning, since I have an ECU from each car with his tune.

Or if JFettig would like to attend and setup the 2nd ECU I have for the RTDI and I'd purchase another BEW ECU for the Jetta and get a Malone Tune for that too.

So if anyone else wants to put this whole debacle to bed and find out the truth behind Drivbiwire's claim that BEW injectors out flow PD150 injectors and would like to help me out would be great, since I'm physically unable to do the work
I'll be the one to provide the test vehicles

Encase anyone was wondering...here are my two PD vehicles that could be used to test this PD injector theory.

My RTDI Build thread.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=442969

The closest thing I have to a build thread for the Jetta.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=265112

With the right people/help this whole claim about BEW injectors out flowing PD150 injectors can be resolved finally.

Can we clarify if 18% increase in flow is giving 18% increase in injected quantity for the same rpm and soi and duration or more likely 5-8% due to the corresponding drop in injection pressure?

I would be surprised if there was any restriction within the injector that can have a similar restriction to that of the nozzle otherwise r783 , 80%,120% and 160% would not flow the sort of injected quantities they do, they would all perform to a similar level.

While we are at it with larger nozzles is there any engineering reason why we should not run to higher rpm with pd injectors. There will be more stress on injector mechanism but with larger nozzles a large contribution to the force is reduced. I personally have my rpm limit set to 5500 rpm on 120% nozzles and cam with enhanced injector lobe. Duration around 25 degrees with 2.5 bar boost and afr around 14.5.
Trying to create a rough calibrated duration map for combination but so far nothing on work done so far shows any evidence of restriction (up to around 70mg so far), will confirm once complete.

chapelhill said:

I personally have my rpm limit set to 5500 rpm on 120% nozzles and cam with enhanced injector lobe. Duration around 25 degrees with 2.5 bar boost and afr around 14.5.

Click to expand...

25degree and AFR 14.5... You have enough fueling for 400bhp if you want to. Focus on turbo and head/cam and you have one powerful PD motor.

3L3M3NT said:

With a more modern turbo you're able to increase the volume of air going to the engine thus creating a more complete burn of the fuel that is getting injected. Thus increasing the efficiency of the engine and creating more power.
I'm not sure how you of all people has to have this explained to you...
I'm sure there are plenty of 200 whp/235 bhp PDs running around Europe and not batting an eye.
I'm having a Dyno Day September 12th, so put up or shut up time.
So, if you truly want to back up your claim that BEW injectors flow 15-18% more than PD150 injectors send me a set of both injectors set up with the exact same nozzles for either my 04 BEW Jetta, that already has PD150s in it or my RTDI that is pushing close to 300 whp and 450 ft/lbs on a 1.9 PD bored out to 2.0 with BEW injectors with +80% Firad Nozzles in it currently or a set of PD150 injectors with +120% Firad nozzles on them waiting to go in.
Both cars will be there and if you want to fly out and do the injector swap yourself you're more than welcome to attend to make sure they're setup to your liking, that way you can't cry foul.
I'll see if Mike at TD Tuning would be willing to help me out with tuning, since I have an ECU from each car with his tune.
Or if JFettig would like to attend and setup the 2nd ECU I have for the RTDI and I'd purchase another BEW ECU for the Jetta and get a Malone Tune for that too.
So if anyone else wants to put this whole debacle to bed and find out the truth behind Drivbiwire's claim that BEW injectors out flow PD150 injectors and would like to help me out would be great, since I'm physically unable to do the work
I'll be the one to provide the test vehicles
Encase anyone was wondering...here are my two PD vehicles that could be used to test this PD injector theory.
My RTDI Build thread.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=442969
The closest thing I have to a build thread for the Jetta.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=265112
With the right people/help this whole claim about BEW injectors out flowing PD150 injectors can be resolved finally.

Click to expand...

We don't need to test this, we already know what they do!

Do you think YOU are the first one to modify a PD?

We have all the PD injector data, flow data for nozzles and already have cars pushing beyond 240HP with little to no smoke.

We'd be happy to build up any combination you like, pay for the injectors and we will overnight them to you.

We get a lot of feedback from several tuners here and they all support the easier power gains of the BEW using an R783 vs a PD150 pump set.

It's kind of like debating a 10mm flows more than an 11mm pump... You lose credibility trying to argue that case, just like trying to argue a PD150 outflows a BEW pump... It's impossible.

Drivbiwire said:

We don't need to test this, we already know what they do!

Of course you don't want me to test this because my guess is that you're standing behind your claim to drum up business...otherwise why have people send you their BEW injectors if they can just source a set of PD150/PD130 injectors for half what you charge

Do you think YOU are the first one to modify a PD?

When did I ever claim to be a pioneer in the PD engine world...

We have all the PD injector data, flow data for nozzles and already have cars pushing beyond 240HP with little to no smoke.

Show me the real world (Dyno) results that prove that because the BEW injectors flow 15-18% more correlates to an increase in higher dyno numbers, otherwise I'm calling BS

We'd be happy to build up any combination you like, pay for the injectors and we will overnight them to you.

If you're willing to let me borrow a set of BEW injectors setup with PD150 nozzles, that works for me, but I don't want to buy a set of PD injectors. I'm more than happy to pay for shipping/new hardware/seal kits/etc to have dyno results to prove/disprove your claim.

We get a lot of feedback from several tuners here and they all support the easier power gains of the BEW using an R783 vs a PD150 pump set.

Now you want to compare apples to oranges when you compare BEW injectors with R783 nozzles on them to stock PD150 injectors

I want to see that just by going from an ARL/ASZ injectors setup the exact same as BEW injectors will show any kind of increase on the dyno on the same day/same conditions/same car/same tune

It's kind of like debating a 10mm flows more than an 11mm pump... You lose credibility trying to argue that case, just like trying to argue a PD150 outflows a BEW pump... It's impossible.

How can it be impossible to see if BEW injectors produce higher hp numbers than ARL/ASZ injectors...

Click to expand...

If anyone is wiling to let me borrow a set of BEW injectors and plan on putting bigger nozzles on and would be willing to put PD150 nozzles on would be AWESOME!
I'm more than happy to pay for shipping/new hardware/seal kits/etc to have dyno results to prove/disprove Drivbiwire's claim.

Otherwise if I've got the money at the time of the dyno, I might get a set of BEW injectors and have a set of PD150 nozzles fitted to swap in and see if there's any difference on the dyno.

Like I said in my last post put up or shut up!

No more of this well...the BEW injector flows more than a ARL injector...but does that mean an increase in performance?

I just wanted to know:

Which european injector body has a direct flow to the nozzle?

DBW helped me find out that 038 130 073 AG has a direct flow with a 8 mm plunger..

According to this site:

http://stock-available-automotive.blogspot.com.tr/search/label/AUDI - INJECTION

the 038 130 073 AQ and AM injector should have the same body.

Are there other injectors with different bosch numbers which has a direct flow and 8 mm plunger??

Could someone please tell me so that I can narrow my search for these bodies?

Based on United Diesel in the UK comparing the US BEW injector to the PD 150...

United Diesel UK said:

Right guys the results are as follows, we used the same DSSR 130+ nozzles, set the NOP 1 pressure to 300 Bar on the 3 bodies and the deliveries are different.
The injectors used were,
038 130 073 AL - 0414 720 039 - PDE-P1.3/80/550S39 – ARL - 150 Bhp
038 130 073 AG – 0414 720 215 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S215 – BXE – 105Bhp
038 130 073 BF – 0414 720 223 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S223 – BWE – 100 Bhp
The fuelling results are,
038 130 073 AL Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 32.0 ccs
038 130 073 AG Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 34.0 ccs
038 130 073 BF Low delivery 14.0 ccs / Full load 35.6 ccs

Click to expand...

The BF beats the AL (PD150) by over 11% with everything else being equal.

That 11% is equivalent to running a different higher flowing nozzle opening up potential not possible with a lower flowing unit injector combination.

What about injectors from an ATD motor?

leon10tagg said:

What about injectors from an ATD motor?

Click to expand...

I appreciate a bit of input on my query as i can buy a good set for 60 out of a 100hp ATD motor.
Thanks
Len

To the best of my knowledge, the ATD and BEW are almost identical, so I believe the injectors would be the same and have that higher flow.

IMO , I don't think the injector body.makes huge difference in performance. The only way to know for sure would be to dyno a car on the same day with ideally changing the injectors on the dyno and compare charts.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it happen when I had the dyno day. Hopefully I can find the time to try and compare PD injector bodies on the dyno in the future.

devonutopia said:

Here are the results from United Diesel. Hope the part numbers bare some reference to the injectors available stateside.


QUOTED
Right guys the results are as follows, we used the same DSSR 130+ nozzles, set the NOP 1 pressure to 300 Bar on the 3 bodies and the deliveries are different.
The injectors used were,
038 130 073 AL - 0414 720 039 - PDE-P1.3/80/550S39 – ARL - 150 Bhp
038 130 073 AG – 0414 720 215 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S215 – BXE – 105Bhp
038 130 073 BF – 0414 720 223 - PDE-P1.1/80/425S223 – BWE – 100 Bhp
The fuelling results are,
038 130 073 AL Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 32.0 ccs
038 130 073 AG Low delivery 13.0 ccs / Full load 34.0 ccs
038 130 073 BF Low delivery 14.0 ccs / Full load 35.6 ccs
So the conclusion is that PD bodies do flow differently, but personally I do not believe that for “normal” tuning it will make that much of a difference to the performance of the vehicle. It might be more relevant if you were performing a “super tune” and needed every ccs of fuel.

Click to expand...

I stumbled upon this thread just in time, as I nearly sent (4) 038 130 073 BF and (6) 038 130 073 AG injectors off for upgraded nozzles for my V10. Would have been puzzling, 4 cylinders flowing 4.7% more fuel with the same nozzles. Thanks, Devon, for putting this out there. Going to swap the "BF" injectors into my BEW engine and add the BEW injectors (AG) to the pile, then send off a matching set of 10 injectors to have rebuilt. Thanks again!

PD100 - ATD - EU3 - 038 130 073 AJ - PDE-P1.3/80/425S37

injection window: 30,9°


PD100 - AXR - EU4 - 038 130 073 AG - PDE PDE-P1.1/80/425S215

injection window: 33°


So the same hp + the same nozzle size, BUT different PD body ... P1.3 vs. P1.1

So why needs the AXR more injection time? Any informations?

Different version injector, 1.1 vs 1.3

The solenoid settings have to be modified to the version, this results in control variations. Don't mix and match different injectors withou version correcting them.

3L3M3NT said:

To the best of my knowledge, the ATD and BEW are almost identical, so I believe the injectors would be the same and have that higher flow.

IMO , I don't think the injector body.makes huge difference in performance. The only way to know for sure would be to dyno a car on the same day with ideally changing the injectors on the dyno and compare charts.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it happen when I had the dyno day. Hopefully I can find the time to try and compare PD injector bodies on the dyno in the future.

Click to expand...

I spoke to United Diesel and they stated that the normal injectors I have will be fine for fitting +50 nozzles.

To wrap things up, 1.3 body versions will also mean restricted bodies? or this is only a solenoid matter?
Thank you dbw for the information.
Then, are pd100 atd and axr (1.3-1.1/073AJ-073AG) bodies similar ?

Sorry guys, long thread, so any US/Can market BEW injectors are the best to own? Just starting to research PD stuff as a friend has one and I might switch to one.

intaketommy said:

PD100 - ATD - EU3 - 038 130 073 AJ - PDE-P1.3/80/425S37

injection window: 30,9°


PD100 - AXR - EU4 - 038 130 073 AG - PDE PDE-P1.1/80/425S215

injection window: 33°


So the same hp + the same nozzle size, BUT different PD body ... P1.3 vs. P1.1

So why needs the AXR more injection time? Any informations?

Click to expand...

My understanding is that the ATD injectors have more potential as they require less injection duration.

The ATD does not have the restriction channel.

Because of this, the pressure that builds behind the nozzle plate results in uniform pressure and volume delivery during the entire injection event.

Its a good body to upgrade.

i thought atd were said to be pde p1.3 here, and 1.3 are restricted channel, nop?