Ministry of Labour Ticket

vwmikey99 · Apr 24, 2013

Hey everyone..

I received a ticket for not having proper safety boots on in a home subdivision. I am an electrician on the site. (My coworker and I, had just come from picking up lunch to eat at the house... before gearing up (boots/hardhat/tools/etc), the MOL officer charged me with ""Worker failing to wear protective footwear as prescribed..etc.." basically during our lunch break while we were sitting around eating.

What I am wondering...

He wrote my birthdate wrong on the ticket. Two days off.. He put a 28, instead of a 26. The driver license number he typed in had my correct birthdate in the last six digits)...but my actual Birthdate was wrong. I'm not sure if it was some way of trying to do me a favour.

Does this entitle me to a free pass? Anyone have experience getting off on a ticket because of an improper date of birth?

If anyone is wondering.. the fine for not wearing boots on a construction site is 195+40 victim fine surcharge = $235. Yikes!! ... from what I understand, this is a good deal...because he was not going to charge my employer.

petea4 · Apr 24, 2013

I think the birthday stuff/bad spelling on tickets to get off are myths.

Just challenge the charge. Were you working or holding any tools? If your just holding your sausage having lunch offsite(in car, outside of house), tell him to take a hike.

vwmikey99 · Apr 24, 2013

Literally just sitting beside my lunch box inside of the main floor of the house that we were to going to be working in after lunch. My coworker and I did not have hard hats nearby. He let us off that, and just boned me with the safety boot fine.

imo000 · Apr 24, 2013

Its a crappy situation but since you know you were in the wrong, its time to man up and pay and be done with it.

LNXGUY · Apr 24, 2013

Take it to court, get it reduced.

amacd · Apr 24, 2013

petea4 said:
I think the birthday stuff/bad spelling on tickets to get off are myths.

+1 tried that with a BS traffic tickete in T.O. The JP said the birth date was insignificant. He did'nt reduce it and it ended up costing me more in the long run because I had to take the day off work,fuel,etc..

Andrew

Cogen Man · Apr 24, 2013

You were in the house. So you were in the construction site. Might as well just pay the fine. The inspector was being a bit of an a$$. He could have given you a warning. Maybe if you offered him some of your lunch ? Or let him drive your diesel around the block.

sidshock · Apr 24, 2013

def. go to court.
plead guilty, get it reduced to half that.
go to work for half a day after

Errors on tickets can't be just myths.
It's the way you argue it.
ie: the city employee looked so over worked to me he could not even read my licence correct or see right.
Or needs glasses or something. Does he have a prescription for eye wear?
Was he wearing any then? How long of a shift has he been working?
Did he not notice those were steel toe/plate running style shoes? ( yes they exist)

This is why lawyers get the big bucks.... because they can B/S well.

ng3 · Apr 25, 2013

I think the only time a spelling mistake can save you is if they manage to enter the wrong license plate number on a parking ticket.
Since he got your driver license number right I don't really see a way out.

mo_focus · Apr 25, 2013

that is weird, most times they ask to see your safety gear, so if you had your boots near by you should have told him.

As for wrong birthday on tickets, I got a ticket once, long long time ago and took it to the courts clerk staff, showed the ticket and they cancelled it.I think the DL was totally off, as if she wrote someone else's number down. (she might have done it on purpose just to scare me off) ticket was by Finch and Don Mills, unsafe lane change and OPP actually gave me the ticket.

imo000 · Apr 25, 2013

sidshock said:
def. go to court.
plead guilty, get it reduced to half that.
go to work for half a day after

Errors on tickets can't be just myths.
It's the way you argue it.
ie: the city employee looked so over worked to me he could not even read my licence correct or see right.
Or needs glasses or something. Does he have a prescription for eye wear?
Was he wearing any then? How long of a shift has he been working?
Did he not notice those were steel toe/plate running style shoes? ( yes they exist)

This is why lawyers get the big bucks.... because they can B/S well.

Been watching too much TV? This jailhouse lawyering tactic doesn't work in real life. Also, certain safety footwears are not allowed in construction sites. Not all steele towed shoes are the same. Construction sites like a house, requires the ankle to be covered too.

vwmikey99 · Apr 25, 2013

I will likely end up just paying the ticket, or going to a justice of the peace and get it reduced in half (assuming they offer after work hours meet ups)...otherwise financially..there is no point in missing a day of work to get a discount on my ticket.

Seriously though, I received this ticket in an almost finished townhouse while I was not even actually working. I went into the house to eat lunch with a coworker (because it was raining outside). People live in the townhouse next to the one I was having lunch in. They don't require safety shoes/hardhat when they walk from their car to the house (we both park in the same area).

I can understand all of the "police state" / legal reasons behind this...but from a safety perspective, I am not exactly convinced I am $235 in the wrong. When I am working, I have my gear.

When I am not working, eating lunch in an almost complete house... I feel my safety was not being compromised...

Blowing right through a stop sign, or doing a slow motion rolling stop.
Same ticket, two different levels of hazard.

No safety boots on during lunch in a finished house vs. working with heavy machinery / in a house being framed with an assortment of 2x4s on the floor with nails sticking out of them.

I feel that I am really not the safety hazard they were after...but it was just a slow day in ticket land, and the higher beings need to justify their paycheque.

My $235 rant is over

imo000 · Apr 26, 2013

You are starting to blame the inspector for doing its job. That's not right. If the ticket was only $20, you wouldn't be pi$$ed off, right? $hiit happens, learn from it. Wear the safety boots from the beginning of the work day till the end and you'll never get a ticket for it.

sidshock · Apr 26, 2013

imo000 said:
Been watching too much TV? This jailhouse lawyering tactic doesn't work in real life. Also, certain safety footwears are not allowed in construction sites. Not all steele towed shoes are the same. Construction sites like a house, requires the ankle to be covered too.

some do. Some don't.

The above tactics are to stall....
remand...
delay...
get it thrown out.

Done it for Hwy Traffic Act.
Worked like a charm.
No TV. Real life. You never try, you never know with that attitude.
Even faked not being able to speak English to stall even further....

sidshock · Apr 26, 2013

vwmikey99 said:
I will likely end up just paying the ticket, or going to a justice of the peace and get it reduced in half (assuming they offer after work hours meet ups)...otherwise financially..there is no point in missing a day of work to get a discount on my ticket.

Seriously though, I received this ticket in an almost finished townhouse while I was not even actually working. I went into the house to eat lunch with a coworker (because it was raining outside). People live in the townhouse next to the one I was having lunch in. They don't require safety shoes/hardhat when they walk from their car to the house (we both park in the same area).

I can understand all of the "police state" / legal reasons behind this...but from a safety perspective, I am not exactly convinced I am $235 in the wrong. When I am working, I have my gear.

When I am not working, eating lunch in an almost complete house... I feel my safety was not being compromised...

Blowing right through a stop sign, or doing a slow motion rolling stop.
Same ticket, two different levels of hazard.

No safety boots on during lunch in a finished house vs. working with heavy machinery / in a house being framed with an assortment of 2x4s on the floor with nails sticking out of them.

I feel that I am really not the safety hazard they were after...but it was just a slow day in ticket land, and the higher beings need to justify their paycheque.

My $235 rant is over

If you feel wronged. Fight it on principle alone. But that's up to you. Depends what kind of guy you are and if you feel bothered enough by it.

He didn't even give you the opportunity to present your safety boots since you were not working to show you have them for when you ARE working. So I would measure that up as a slow day myself.

You'd have a good case in stating you were NOT working. He'd have a good case in stating you were in a zone that required boots. (the town home you were eating in).
I don't think you'd win. But I'd think you can half that ticket.

imo000 · Apr 26, 2013

sidshock said:
some do. Some don't.

The above tactics are to stall....
remand...
delay...
get it thrown out.

Done it for Hwy Traffic Act.
Worked like a charm.
No TV. Real life. You never try, you never know with that attitude.
Even faked not being able to speak English to stall even further....

Lied in court?

sidshock · Apr 26, 2013

imo000 said:
Lied in court?

the truth?

Yes I lied over my speeding ticket. And my parking ticket. And my cell phone ticket.

With the way we get taxed, they want an influx from me for the above too?
I don't think so!

ik0n · Apr 26, 2013

sidshock said:
He didn't even give you the opportunity to present your safety boots since you were not working to show you have them for when you ARE working. So I would measure that up as a slow day myself.

It doesn't matter if you are working or not, if you're on the jobsite you have rules and regulations that need to be followed, it's the law.

I work in the construction industry as well.
I don't know too many of my tradesmen that bring a separate pair of boots to work. Most wear the same footwear all day long unless it is in the deep of winter and they're wearing their heavy insulated boots or the site is a complete mud hole and they are wearing their rubbers.

I'm guessing that the inspector was likely assuming that the OP didn't take his boots off to eat lunch (because there are not many people who do this) and he likely assumed he had zero intention of putting his boots on had the inspector not walked onto site. The inspector also likely concluded that the OP wasn't wearing them earlier either. Couple that with his hardhat not being nearby and he has to look for an excuse NOT to write him up.

The inspector has likely heard every excuse in the book and he would have to be a very naieve individual to believe each and everyone.

I've seen very few trades in the finishing stage of a project, get a ticket for not wearing their hat. The last one I saw ticketed was ticketed because he started talking back to the inspector.

My point is people can argue all day, but the law is the law and the OP was TECHNICALLY in the wrong.

Was the inspector a bit of an @$$, maybe?

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

sidshock · Apr 26, 2013

ik0n said:
It doesn't matter if you are working or not, if you're on the jobsite you have rules and regulations that need to be followed, it's the law.

I work in the construction industry as well.
I don't know too many of my tradesmen that bring a separate pair of boots to work. Most wear the same footwear all day long unless it is in the deep of winter and they're wearing their heavy insulated boots or the site is a complete mud hole and they are wearing their rubbers.

I'm guessing that the inspector was likely assuming that the OP didn't take his boots off to eat lunch (because there are not many people who do this) and he likely assumed he had zero intention of putting his boots on had the inspector not walked onto site. The inspector also likely concluded that the OP wasn't wearing them earlier either. Couple that with his hardhat not being nearby and he has to look for an excuse NOT to write him up.

The inspector has likely heard every excuse in the book and he would have to be a very naieve individual to believe each and everyone.

I've seen very few trades in the finishing stage of a project, get a ticket for not wearing their hat. The last one I saw ticketed was ticketed because he started talking back to the inspector.

My point is people can argue all day, but the law is the law and the OP was TECHNICALLY in the wrong.

Was the inspector a bit of an @$$, maybe?

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

I agree. That's why I said I don't think he would win his case.
But he can get it reduced.

imo000 · Apr 26, 2013

sidshock said:
the truth?

Yes I lied over my speeding ticket. And my parking ticket. And my cell phone ticket.

With the way we get taxed, they want an influx from me for the above too?
I don't think so!

It has nothing to do with taxes, that's just an excuse you've cooked up to jutify it. It paints a.nice picture of your integrity. So much for owning up when you did something wrong.

sidshock · Apr 26, 2013

double post.
sorry

sidshock · Apr 26, 2013

imo000 said:
It has nothing to do with taxes, that's just an excuse you've cooked up to jutify it. It paints a.nice picture of your integrity. So much for owning up when you did something wrong.

okay. Thank you for your insight. Highway Traffic Act.
I lied. Then you must be that 1 percentile. Nice to meet you.

Back on topic.
If he chooses to accept guilt, appear in court he will get a reduction.
If it's not worth it to him, then he can pay the full.
Can we agree on that obvious topic, and not judge my character over the internet?

btw: tickets/fines have everything to do with taxes for your info. It's a form of influx to the city.
Oh, and by the way. It's abused to death. Guess who pays?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/are-police-handing-out-traffic-tickets-to-meet-quotas-1.1129762

Wingnut · Apr 27, 2013

imo000 said:
... So much for owning up when you did something wrong.

If someone is hurt, or there is property damage, then yes, everyone should own up to doing something wrong. But 99.9% of traffic tickets are a victimless offense.

If I happen to roll slowly through a stop sign at 2am, or make a right on a red when there isn't another car or pedestrian anywhere in sight and there is a cop hiding behind a billboard to catch me, then yes, everyone should fight those tickets. Have you ever driven 1km over the speed limit? That is just as high a ticket as driving 15km over. Technically, its breaking the law. Would you happily pay that fine???

Everyone does something wrong at some point in their daily lives, no matter how small. It is the severity of those infractions that requires a certain amount of discretion. And if the person who happens to pull you over on that day is in a bad mood, his discretion threshold goes way down. That is why there is a court system.

DumpInfo · Apr 27, 2013

ik0n said:
It doesn't matter if you are working or not, if you're on the jobsite you have rules and regulations that need to be followed, it's the law.

I work in the construction industry as well.
I don't know too many of my tradesmen that bring a separate pair of boots to work. Most wear the same footwear all day long unless it is in the deep of winter and they're wearing their heavy insulated boots or the site is a complete mud hole and they are wearing their rubbers.

I'm guessing that the inspector was likely assuming that the OP didn't take his boots off to eat lunch (because there are not many people who do this) and he likely assumed he had zero intention of putting his boots on had the inspector not walked onto site. The inspector also likely concluded that the OP wasn't wearing them earlier either. Couple that with his hardhat not being nearby and he has to look for an excuse NOT to write him up.

The inspector has likely heard every excuse in the book and he would have to be a very naieve individual to believe each and everyone.

I've seen very few trades in the finishing stage of a project, get a ticket for not wearing their hat. The last one I saw ticketed was ticketed because he started talking back to the inspector.

My point is people can argue all day, but the law is the law and the OP was TECHNICALLY in the wrong.

Was the inspector a bit of an @$$, maybe?

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

Also in trades myself and everything you mentioned is legitimate.

OP,

As another mentioned you could run off to court for a lesser fee but at that rate you're wasting a days pay. Not sure whether your an apprentice or what you make a day is worth loosing or whether your boss would be alright with you missing a day but that's also an option whether you decide to go to court for a lesser charge. I believe you should just pay the darn ticket even though the situation sucks but you were in the wrong.

imo000 · Apr 27, 2013

sidshock said:
okay. Thank you for your insight. Highway Traffic Act.
I lied. Then you must be that 1 percentile. Nice to meet you.

Back on topic.
If he chooses to accept guilt, appear in court he will get a reduction.
If it's not worth it to him, then he can pay the full.
Can we agree on that obvious topic, and not judge my character over the internet?

btw: tickets/fines have everything to do with taxes for your info. It's a form of influx to the city.
Oh, and by the way. It's abused to death. Guess who pays?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/are-police-handing-out-traffic-tickets-to-meet-quotas-1.1129762

I don't know what kind of circles you are running in but I'm not a 1%er when it comes to being honest. Most people by nature are honest. Yes he probably will get a reduction if he takes it to court but to lie to get away with it is something that I wouldn't be bragging about it.

I agree, traffic infraction revenue is is a god revenue generator but it is a side effect of breaking the law. I get a ticket once every two years for speeding and I consider it part of the game of speeding. I know damn well I'm breaking the law every day so when I get a ticket and I know I'm in the wrong, I just go and pay it. Only had one experience where I didn't like how the whole thing went down but talking to those that are in the law enforcement field, made me realize the procedure was legal and I just paid it off at the end.

I roll through stop sign sand right turns on red just like everyone else, the use of all way stop signs is way more than required (most are politically based), but instead of complaining about it, on an internet forum, I make my complaint to those that are in the traffic field. This way maybe things will change. York is piloting a project to use more yield signs instead off all way stops. There is hope if you get the local politicians involved, especially if its election year. I work in the traffic field but I'm not a cop.

dwfdiesel · Apr 27, 2013

Sounds like an excuse because you got caught, likely time to pay up. Oh by the way do you get paid for lunch? I think workers have to be reimbursed for time when they can be charged.

sidshock · Apr 27, 2013

If you judge me, or someones character based on traffic court as complete liars, then that's your choice. But if you reference post #23 here, I'd say that's right on par with my feelings about ticketing.
Maybe some people don't respect the HTA because of the way it's abused by the city.
Now, he didn't say how he would fight his ticket. He may choose to "exaggerate" his version to help his argument, or he may not. I don't know.
I would choose to exaggerate. I am not bragging. I am being honest, however you wish to take that.
Like you said. It's a game. Sometimes you have to adjust to the game considering how the city seems to change the rules as they see fit to suit them as much as possible.
In the article I linked, you can clearly see how the city purposely changes signs to make them deceiving, and catch people that are used to routine, and what they know the sign to say from before. Therefore, not read it again all the time since they don't expect it to change. Then, place 5 cruisers there to meet quotas. Oh wait, sorry, I mean "averages".

The only reason I listed my actions was because it was mentioned that I am just speaking from "TV" experience. I was not bragging in any way. I simply referenced personal experience, and that it does work.

imo000 said:
I don't know what kind of circles you are running in but I'm not a 1%er when it comes to being honest. Most people by nature are honest. Yes he probably will get a reduction if he takes it to court but to lie to get away with it is something that I wouldn't be bragging about it.
I agree, traffic infraction revenue is is a god revenue generator but it is a side effect of breaking the law. I get a ticket once every two years for speeding and I consider it part of the game of speeding. I know damn well I'm breaking the law every day so when I get a ticket and I know I'm in the wrong, I just go and pay it. Only had one experience where I didn't like how the whole thing went down but talking to those that are in the law enforcement field, made me realize the procedure was legal and I just paid it off at the end.
I roll through stop sign sand right turns on red just like everyone else, the use of all way stop signs is way more than required (most are politically based), but instead of complaining about it, on an internet forum, I make my complaint to those that are in the traffic field. This way maybe things will change. York is piloting a project to use more yield signs instead off all way stops. There is hope if you get the local politicians involved, especially if its election year. I work in the traffic field but I'm not a cop.

petea4 · Apr 27, 2013

I think I rolled 6 stop signs today. Broke the speed limit on every street. I didn't have my seatbelt on while rolling out of the driveway. Also parked on the wrong side of the road to jump into a Open House.

All before 2pm. Lol

ymz · Apr 27, 2013

Slight Tangent: Back in the glorious days of Premier Rae's Photo Radar, a friend was sent a ticket for having driven 106 km/h on the 100 km/h-rated 401... theoretically below the ticketing threshold... since this ticket originated far from his home in Toronto (about halfway to Montreal) and he was too busy at work to go fight the ticket, he hired one of these X-Copper or equivalent companies to go and fight it on his behalf... they got the ticket dismissed, but it still cost him about $300... what a useless exercise...

Yuri

petea4 · Apr 27, 2013

^^^ keeps people employed.

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