Engine not turning completely :(

lisab4

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
So after a 2 year restoration, I was going to install my 1Z engine tomorrow. I tried today to install the lock pin but the wheel needed to turn another half inch. No go :/
I can turn the engine freely by hand almost completely round, but just before the timing marking on the flywheel reaches the top, I can turn it no further. Tried turning a bit left, a bit right. Nothing. Any ideas?
I didn't open the engine. Just changed everything that hangs on it, and the seal behind the flywheel.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I guess I'd remove the valve cover and see what the valve positions are.

"Everything that hangs on it", that doesn't include the timing belt?

Maybe a valve is stuck open from sitting?
 

lisab4

Veteran Member
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Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
No timing belt change. Waited with that specifically to avoid problems :/
I took the cover off and turned. When engine viewed from from, seen L to R: 2nd and last valve don't move. When one of the lobes hits one of those two it stops. All others move.
 

lisab4

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Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
Only thing I can think of is indeed, stuck open from sitting, or a piece of carbon fell into an intake when cleaning them. But I was very careful and vacuumed the hell outta those ports before I moved anything. Any help VERY welcome :(
 
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iluvmydiesels

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Nov 21, 2015
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phila area
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AHU
#1 Stop!, check 1st your coming up/to/towards TDC(thats #1). donot move(crank). looks like (at this time) you made your 1st right decision, when a crank binds. you stop, and donot force.(turning/wrench). now looks like your #1 cam shaft is down(straight). perhaps the cam is 180dg(?)(*off), so if so. the next step is at/near TDC, now take some white out, and on (crank)pulley, make a mark(clean b4). i make mine right toward the bottom. (for someone looking at it, it could seem to be a bdc mark, so now if crank will turn back, make mark now about even with bottom of block/@oil pan, so its parallel with ground/floor. 90dg mark. (in reverse-in this case). now i use a 300mm adj wrench, and can -(making sure cam turns clear/doesnt bind-that is). -find your (correct) cam TDC(#1 that is). the slot on the rear of cam will take lock and feelers(later) @TDC. seems really you need a book, shop manual that is.
 
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lisab4

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Oct 20, 2013
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Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
I have no idea how cam and crank could be off. The engine was parked when I took it out to restore the car. The timing belt hasn't been changed or tampered with. Engine hasn't been opened :/
 

iluvmydiesels

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phila area
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on the other hand(quikly,,#2) another (possible)prob, here, with pic, is pump (tdc) may be 180dg off, but binding must be 1st -cleared^up-. check for #1 valve binding/stopping,(of piston/timing), clear (2X rotation) of crank, and binding/check for such things as belt/pulley clear(ances). after 2x (clear) turns, line up (all)3 timing(tdc) marks.
 

iluvmydiesels

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phila area
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#1 the next step is at/near TDC, now take some white out, and on (crank)pulley, make a mark(clean b4). i make mine right toward the bottom.
(for someone looking at it, it could seem to be a bdc mark, so now if crank will turn back, make mark now about even with bottom of block/@oil pan, so its parallel with ground/floor. 90dg mark. (in reverse-in this case).
now i use a 300mm adj wrench,
and can -(making sure cam turns clear/doesnt bind-that is). -find your (correct) cam TDC(#1 that is). the slot on the rear of cam will take lock and feelers(later) @TDC.
now quikly fyi, VIP--. this is when belt IS Not on, if belt is/still on this is not the info/what i was getting at. if your here @this point(with belt off, ready to put belt on) your close to putting belt on;again.
 

vanbcguy

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Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
You mention you had the flywheel off to replace the seal, all new bolts used? Any chance anything in there is causing a problem?

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
 

iluvmydiesels

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Nov 21, 2015
Location
phila area
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AHU
if when (still/)(trying)2turn motor/by hand/. is still binding donot even force, clear that up.
so somehow recently youve cleaned up intakemanifold, and perhaps runners(in head), and tried to clean^up, &/or vacced? or what.manifold, of course, you had off?
 

lisab4

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
All new bolts. Everything was striped off the block, cleaned up, and/or replaced
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
So after a 2 year restoration, I was going to install my 1Z engine tomorrow. I tried today to install the lock pin but the wheel needed to turn another half inch. No go :/
I can turn the engine freely by hand almost completely round, but just before the timing marking on the flywheel reaches the top, I can turn it no further. Tried turning a bit left, a bit right. Nothing. Any ideas?
I didn't open the engine. Just changed everything that hangs on it, and the seal behind the flywheel.
You saying it's stuck or that you can back it up but not forward? You ARE turning by the crank bolt, not the cam or pump? Wouldn't make a difference with your problem but that's how it should be done.

Vancouver Guy may be on to something. Maybe remove the flywheel and see if it turns.

Edit: You beat me. Are the new flywheel bolts the correct length?
 
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lisab4

Veteran Member
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Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
TDI
1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
I can back it up, no problem. Can turn it by hand by the crank bolt or flywheel. Turn freely up until that point.
There's nothing at the back of the flywheel that can stick, so can't see how something there is keeping it from turning completely around.
All bolts were the correct ones, ordered new from the VW dealer.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I reread your second post. Sounds like you're saying it binds when the cam hits the follower. That would indicate a valve stuck closed which seems more likely than one stuck open and the piston hitting it.

One intake and one exhaust.

If you turn the crank 90 degrees from TDC all the pistons will be clear of the valves. Maybe at that position you can try pushing the two valves down? Maybe try one that isn't stuck to get a feel for what to expect?
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Trying to understand what's going on...

In your photo #1 intake lobe is about to hit the follower and it stops there, correct?

And the timing mark is almost to TCD position?

You can rotate it backwards until the #4 exhaust lobe hits its follower, correct?
 
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lisab4

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Oct 20, 2013
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Belgium
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1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
I'm also thinking stuck valves. Will see if I can try moving them tomorrow. Can I tap on them with a piece of wood?
 

lisab4

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Oct 20, 2013
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Belgium
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1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
Trying to understand what's going on...

In your photo #1 intake lobe is about to hit the follower and it stops there, correct?

You can rotate it backwards until the #4 exhaust lobe hits its follower, correct?
Yes, indeed. On both ends, that is just before the TDC marking on the flywheel reaches the top.
 
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ToddA1

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Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
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'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
I'd pull the head.

Other than time, it'll cost you a head gasket, head bolts, and some valve stem seals. The seals aren't necessary, but I'd change them.

There's probably a ton more cleaning that needs to be done in the valve pockets.

-Todd
 

ToddA1

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Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
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'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
Pull the cam. All lifters should rise up. If one or more don't, I guess pull the lifters, but keep them in order. Maybe try to push on the end with the end of a hammer handle or something.... maybe you'll get lucky and work it free.

If they all don't end up at the same height, back to my original suggestion.

I've heard of people bending valves because they cleaned the intake ports and didn't make sure valves were closed. I used a ton of compressed air to ensure I got everything out and still rotated by hand a few times. I was still nervous, when I turned the key.

After pulling the head on the project car's engine I realized cleaning ports isn't enough. There's a ton you can't reach in the valve pockets.

-Todd
 

lisab4

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Oct 20, 2013
Location
Belgium
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1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
I think I'll try pushing the lifters with a hammer handle a bit. Hope they free up :/ I really want to try avoiding pulling the head, or cam, as I have zero experience in that.
Also, I'm 2 years into this restoration with a total cost of over $12.000. I want to be able to drive and enjoy it a bit. Engine ran perfect before. An internal rebuild is something I'd hope to do in a few years :/
 

iluvmydiesels

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phila area
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AHU
as i take it, your figuring if its a valve, stuck or if so much carbon got stuck/clogged. as long as your finding your bind 1st. if its a just (carbon) clogged,stuck valve, where you were cleaning that (choking )intake and such, perhaps air, and wood, even plastic can work to open valve, and shop air can clear/that part of it/.now apparently some sooty matter, needs to blow past an exhaust valve, and now the turbo blades need this to clear it.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I don't think it's carbon on top of the piston. It's apparently stopping when the cam hits the #1 intake follower, not after the valve starts moving.

I don't know if the intake opens before TDC. I suppose there could be carbon between #1 and the intake and the piston is actually topping out against the valve before the lobe is actually touching the follower.

So to check this carefully rotate the crank CW until it stops then try a feeler gauge under the intake. If there's clearance the pistons hitting. If not then it's likely the valve is stuck.

Or stop the crank before contact and see if the valve can be moved.

I suspect that this is not unusual for a vehicle that's sat a long time and if you had tried this with the starter it would have been fine.

Not suggesting you do it at this point and I commend your attention to detail.
 

lisab4

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Belgium
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1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
Took off vacuum pump, clutch, flywheel, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, turbo. Nothing. I can press on the valves and they move. No debris in the intake or exhaust.
Absolutely no idea what the h*ll it could be that stops it from turning. oil pan is not dented either.
 

iluvmydiesels

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phila area
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so , it would seem to me, any of these, reassembled wrong, can hold up the crank, esp in like a 1/4 turn,more/or less.

?put clutch and that side back together incorrect??dontno,
 

iluvmydiesels

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phila area
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no debris in exh or intake would seem a start, 1 thing as long as valves are clear, uum right now thats not for sure(-%). make sure.
 

Windex

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Apr 1, 2006
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Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
Lets back up a moment.

You have not altered the timing (not touched the belt)
The car ran when parked
Ergo, the timing should be accurate

you cleaned the intake.

Describe your process when you cleaned the intake - specifically the ports. Did you ensure that each intake valve was closed on the port you cleaned?

I have seen stuck valves before, but they usually free up with a light tap to the rocker / lifter.

Do all of the lifters rise to the same height when not depressed by a cam lobe? (on base circle) To check this may require a caliper with the ability to measure depth.

If all of the lifters are able to depress (move when manually pressed) then your valves are not stuck.

The only thing left is some freak issue inside a cylinder, or that carbon fell into the cylinder when you cleaned the intake ports.

How long ago did you clean the ports?

The fact that your engine rolls up to, but not through TDC seems to support this.

If it were mine, I would pull the head and clean, but not before trying to gently roll the engine through TDC to gradually squish the carbon in the hopes that I wouldn't have to remove the head.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I got the impression the engine was not rotated to close the valves during the port cleaning but I like to rule out the easy stuff first.

So as Windex asked, did you rotate the engine to close the valve on each port as you cleaned it? The problem is not debris in the port it's debris that falls into the cylinder and sits on the piston or keeps a valve partially open.

Only thing that I wonder about is the exhaust valve. There's usually not that much stuff to clean or stop a piston if it falls in.

You sure the flywheel bolts were the right length?

And are you sure the cam lobes are actually hitting the followers when it stops?
 
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lisab4

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Belgium
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1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
Flywheel wasn't it. Valves move. Removed clutch and wheel. I didn't rotate to clean. Was very careful though and vacuumed thoroughly. Also carbon is compressible. When I rotate to a stop, it's a hard stop, not squishy.
Think I'm going to pull the head :/
 
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lisab4

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Belgium
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1996 Passat B4 1.9 TDI
I have a spare engine I pulled from a Seat. Think I'm gonna rebuild that head and switch it for the one that is one mine now. Less miles, better condition..
 
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