alh on wood splitter cruise control ?

wrench42

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 ALH
Hey all i got mkiv 1.9 i built a wood splitter with and the problem I'm having is the fact the governor is in the ECU. I thought of this before I started this project but figured I'd be able to control it with the cruise control by way of vss mounted to reflect engine speed (hydraulic pump speed). After many hours of torment to get the cruise to set the problem now is once set the engine begins to range up and down a couple times then cuts the cruise out. the speedo at 1500 rpm reads about 75-80mph on the dash and the ECU. Am I hoping for a long shot here? I figure it's the near instant speed change that is giving the ECU a hard time to keep up with. ??? Really all I'm after is a way of adding power and rpm when when it hits the block of wood without over revving in between. Any suggestions are much appreciated.
 

UFO

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Location
A mile high
TDI
2001 Beetle
I expect the cruise control to disengage if it cannot recover speed (RPM) under a heavier load. It's like you are cruising at speed and hit a hill that is too steep for the engine to maintain the speed, it will only keep going for a bit than give up when it cannot recover the original speed setpoint.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Just a question...from what I've read converting to a manual injection pump is usually more work than what it's worth...but in this case it might have made a constant rpm easier to achieve!

Have you emailed malone tuning for any suggestions?
 

miningman

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Location
alberta
TDI
2003 Golf
Unless your blocks of wood are absolutely huge , 90HP should be more than adequate. But of course at 1300rpm , you are no where near max power or torque. Perhaps change your approach so that a sensor on the conveyor , or whatever it is that feeds the splitter, acts as a regular throttle. Sensor detects weight , calls for an increase in rpm to 2200 and as soon as weight disappears , rpm drops back to 900.
 

wrench42

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 ALH
well the thing is i had the car given to me totaled out so really just wanted to make use of it somehow at first now Ive got so much time in it I'm determined to make it work somehow. Not sure about a weight sensor thats a different project. I appreciate all the responses keep thinking outside the box there must a way.I haven't spoken with any tuners about it maybe that's the only way. I was hoping not to put any real money in it but maybe I'll have to. Does anyone know what mechanical pumps would fit it or a different way of controlling the engine I'm open to any ideas.
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I recomend contracting whitbread at whitbread performance. He has built with the manual and electronic injection vw's. Hes also a malone tuner. I've seen peoele use the 1.6 tdi as geneator motors so i know mechanical injection is possible. Aiming for peak torque on a log splitter would be ideal.
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
Sacrilege
nonsense, this is a cool idea. I like the idea of having the idle set to your desired speed. I doubt the hydraulic pump puts that much load on it from a wood splitter.
 

mogly

Veteran Member
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Sarnia, ON, Canada
TDI
MKIV TDI + B5.5V AVF/01E
nonsense, this is a cool idea. I like the idea of having the idle set to your desired speed. I doubt the hydraulic pump puts that much load on it from a wood splitter.
I totally agree. I think having a TDI wood splitter is bad ass. Let's see some pics!!!
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
I am inteterested in seeing how this pans out.

Ive seen local guys with the 4bt and cummins 3.3 on splitters that handle up to 6 inch limbs with auto feed.

The injection pumps are set up differently than the road version as they are set for 1 speed.

I work on generators and pressure washers that have auto throttle control. The generators increase rpms based on load via electonic control. The more power you draw from the generator the higher the rpm goes.

On the pressure washers it's a little more simple. When you're not spraying water it reduces to idle. When you spray it gives full throttle via a throttle cable that's operated by pressure.



I dont see any vw having issues running 1900 or 2200 rpms non stop as it only sees load when you're feeding logs. No doubt in my mind one could be set up to run an entire saw mill and not just a wood chipper.

Im working with a local mobile carwash, pressure wash and carpet cleaning company on setting one up in the back of a pull behind trailer. The life of these motors far exceed a briggs vangard motor, are not hurt by the stale air in a trailer vs the air cooled motor and the diesel doesnt put off explosive fumes in a trailer with a propane burner for hot water 6 ft away.


Not much db noise difference in my opinion between a 20hp air cooled motor and a 90 to 110 hp vw diesel.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Why can't you just select a static throttle position with no return spring?
 

PickleRick

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Location
Greenville sc
TDI
05 GLS BHW sedan 5 speed conversion. BHW Carver SantaCruz in progress
Keeping 70mph in your vehicle means throttle is added or reduced as load increases or decreases i.e. going up or down hills. A locked throttle will not give desired results as the "governor" is not set up to maintain rpm based on load, its based on pedal positioning.

So good rpm with no load may mean not enough rpms to turn the chipper once load is added

Same goes for good rpm under load may mean redline at no load.

There may be a happy medium to work ok, may not be. It will be trial and error. Being able to set rpm and maintain no matter what load would be ideal.

That is why he wanted cruise control to be set to say at X amount rpm, it would throttle up or down as needed.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Perhaps your cruise may be kicking out due to gear ratio mismatch. Not sure if EDC15 ECU's have this feature
they do not, I'm running totally the wrong trans on my ALH and cruise works just fine

op, do you got an MPPS cable? you could use vagedcsuite to easily set it up through the driver's wish map, set it to cut fuel off smoothly after the top RPM you want. Low idle stays nice and low, just put a brick on the go pedal and it'll putt along at 1800 or whatever happily.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Why can't you just select a static throttle position with no return spring?
differing load means he'd be running 4500 when the saw's unloaded and a lot less when loaded down

if the dw map were set up to mimic an industrial application (constant RPM) governor that'd work, but it's set up to pretend to be an automotive governor (constant load)
 

wrench42

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 ALH
thanks for all the great feedback guys I'll try n get ahold of tuner that can maybe remap the ecu to bring the idle up to 1500 or so n go from there I'll post some pics as soon as I get the wiring neatened up a little more the cruise gave me a hard time and ended cutting all my previous work back open Also I haven't built a cover for it yet so the electronics are quite exposed but I'll definitely post what Ive done so far
 

wrench42

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 ALH
I mounted the stock vss from the manual trans to the power steering pulley. At idle the speedo reads about 45 mph which I thought would be ideal at 1500 rpm it reads 75 or so and is surprisingly stable. Now that think about it I believe I read something about the cruise control only working in high gear so that would make sense that I may have to match rpm with mph for the cruise to work properly but I dont know for sure seems 1500 rpm
@ 75 mph should be within parameters
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
differing load means he'd be running 4500 when the saw's unloaded and a lot less when loaded down
if the dw map were set up to mimic an industrial application (constant RPM) governor that'd work, but it's set up to pretend to be an automotive governor (constant load)
Yep, I get it, but if he just set it for 300 rpm's over peak torque, or about 2200 rpm's, it couldn't be stalled out by splitting logs, could it?

I just searched for a stock ALH dyno with no success, but from memory, they make at least 35ish HP at 1900 rpm's....does this log splitter really have that much load? The Tdi under ECU control will automatically adjust fueling based on actual load, even at fixed TPS position. It monitors crank position with respect to the model expectation (measurements for torque) for a given TPS, and adjusts IQ and SOI accordingly, so why the need for cruise control?
 
Last edited:

wrench42

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 ALH
The ECU does not self regulate fueling except at idle. Between idle and max speed IQ is controlled almost entirely by the TPS with no compensation for load. In order to command 35hp at 1900rpm on the dyno, the TPS must be floored. You'll need to inject about 15mg/stroke to achieve this power, If that much fuel is applied to an unloaded engine it rev all the way to the 5100rpm limiter and hold there.

At 1900 rpm and a fixed TPS, an unloaded ALH will probably be running about 5mg/stroke of fuel. It takes very little fuel to raise the unloaded RPM. 5mg/stroke will produce only a few hp. When the engine comes under load it will very quickly lose rpm down to idle speed. At this point the ECU will begin to add additional fuel in an effort to prevent a stall. Unfortunately there won't be much boost available and not much power developed at idle speed, so the engine will probably die out.

My idea involves using the torque limiter to limit max rpm. This way, the TPS can be floored (max IQ requested) and the engine will only rev up to the fuel cut point we programmed in the torque limit map. As load is applied and the engine rpm drops back below the programmed fuel cut, full power will become available. The slope of the fuel cut off point in the map will determine the aggressiveness of the "governor".

I like the way your thinking, is there a way I can do this through VCDS? I just received a new HEX-V2 cable but unfortunately I'm new to this technology so it'll take me a while to become familiar with its capabilities. I tried turning the idle up with it but 960ish rpm was as high as I was able to get it. thanks for input
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
The ECU has a governed RPM mode that you might be able to use instead of cruise control. It might be possible to take advantage of the ECU's governed high idle mode to maintain a constant RPM as load changes. I thought about adding a high idle mod to my 02 Golf TDI years ago but never bothered.

In Mk4 manual ALH TDIs, stepping on the go-pedal and brake together and holding them activates a high idle mode at 1199 RPM and is very tightly governed by the ECU. When you load the engine while this mode, the ECU automatically adjusts fueling as needed to maintain precisely 1199 RPM. The ECU stays in this mode as long as you keep your foot on the brake and go-pedal together. I'm wondering if it's possible to adjust the RPM set point via tuning.

When you take your foot off either pedal, the ECU transitions back to normal go-pedal control after about a second. I've used this "feature" many times to help with starting up on steep hills. I do my startup while the ECU is transitioning back to normal throttle control. I put the ECU into high idle mode from my right foot holding the brake and applying part-throttle. My left foot is on the clutch pedal and the tranny is in first gear. I'm holding the car on the hill and in gear and ready to go. When I let the clutch out to go and get off the brake pedal, the high idle mode helps my initial startup during the transition back to normal throttle control. By the time the ECU returns full control to the go-pedal, I'm already moving and fully off the clutch pedal and applying normal throttle.

I've found from experience that I can do a rather aggressive and controlled launch without stalling the engine due to the ECU automatically adjusting fueling to maintain 1199 RPM. Startups on very steep hills are a breeze due to this governed high idle "feature" in the ECU.

I thought about ways to do a simple high idle mod by electrically fooling the input to the ECU to see the brake pedal being pushed and part throttle applied. Obviously this would be done while the car is stopped. I never bothered to try modding anything but thought it might be useful here. I'm wondering if the 1199 RPM governed high idle set point in the ECU could be modified via tuning up to around 2200 RPM to set a constant governed RPM for the wood splitter application. It could also be useful for generator applications to maintain a precise 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM.
 
Last edited:

wrench42

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Maine
TDI
2003 ALH
The ECU has a governed RPM mode that you might be able to use instead of cruise control. It might be possible to take advantage of the ECU's governed high idle mode to maintain a constant RPM as load changes. I thought about adding a high idle mod to my 02 Golf TDI years ago but never bothered.

In Mk4 manual ALH TDIs, stepping on the go-pedal and brake together and holding them activates a high idle mode at 1199 RPM and is very tightly governed by the ECU. When you load the engine while this mode, the ECU automatically adjusts fueling as needed to maintain precisely 1199 RPM. The ECU stays in this mode as long as you keep your foot on the brake and go-pedal together. I'm wondering if it's possible to adjust the RPM set point via tuning.

When you take your foot off either pedal, the ECU transitions back to normal go-pedal control after about a second. I've used this "feature" many times to help with starting up on steep hills. I do my startup while the ECU is transitioning back to normal throttle control. I put the ECU into high idle mode from my right foot holding the brake and applying part-throttle. My left foot is on the clutch pedal and the tranny is in first gear. I'm holding the car on the hill and in gear and ready to go. When I let the clutch out to go and get off the brake pedal, the high idle mode helps my initial startup during the transition back to normal throttle control. By the time the ECU returns full control to the go-pedal, I'm already moving and fully off the clutch pedal and applying normal throttle.

I've found from experience that I can do a rather aggressive and controlled launch without stalling the engine due to the ECU automatically adjusting fueling to maintain 1199 RPM. Startups on very steep hills are a breeze due to this governed high idle "feature" in the ECU.

I thought about ways to do a simple high idle mod by electrically fooling the input to the ECU to see the brake pedal being pushed and part throttle applied. Obviously this would be done while the car is stopped. I never bothered to try modding anything but thought it might be useful here. I'm wondering if the 1199 RPM governed high idle set point in the ECU could be modified via tuning up to around 2200 RPM to set a constant governed RPM for the wood splitter application. It could also be useful for generator applications to maintain a precise 1800 RPM or 3600 RPM.

I really like your idea. So your saying if i just apply a brake signal and some amount of throttle the ECU will maintain 1200 regardless of load. I never heard anything like this but I'll definitely be giving it a try as soon as I have time. I wonder if that function could be altered to raise it to 1500 or more? Also Quicktd's idea sounds reasonable in theory anyways. I've contacted Matt whitbread and he thought they could do a tune for me to make it work more industrial like but he hasn't gotten back to me with details as of yet. Again guys i cant thank you enough none of my friends can even comprehend the issue let alone a help with a solution.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I really like your idea. So your saying if i just apply a brake signal and some amount of throttle the ECU will maintain 1200 regardless of load. I never heard anything like this but I'll definitely be giving it a try as soon as I have time. I wonder if that function could be altered to raise it to 1500 or more?
YES! Exactly.

2000-2200 RPM would be better than 1500 RPM because the engine would be at the sweet spot in the meatiest part of the torque curve and be safe for the engine and turbo.

The ECU tightly governs the engine RPM at 1199 RPM when in high idle mode or brake overrides throttle mode. I don't know what the official name of the mode is.

You can easily test this in a manual transmission ALH TDI. I don't think it works in an automatic ALH TDI. You may need to recode the ECU to configure it for a manual transmission if the ECU came from an automatic car with the dreaded 01M automatic. Older Mk3 TDIs with a manual transmission also have this mode.

Here is the test in a manual transmission ALH TDI: With the car stopped, apply brake using the left half of your right foot. While keeping your right foot on the brake, apply part throttle with the right half of your right foot. The engine RPM will raise up and then drop to a precisely governed 1199 RPM and stay there as long as you keep your foot on the brake and throttle together. Pushing further down on the go-pedal does nothing while in this mode.

With your left foot, you can use the clutch pedal and put the car in gear and try loading the engine briefly by letting the clutch out enough for it to bite in some and then quickly go back down on the clutch. Try this quickly and briefly so you don't cook the clutch. It also represents a step increase and decrease in load like what the engine would see in the log splitter application. You'll notice the ECU will quickly and automatically adjust fueling to maintain 1199 RPM as you load the engine and then remove the load. If you try turning the A/C on and off, you'll notice the ECU adjusting fueling to maintain 1199 RPM with the load from the A/C compressor on the engine. When you try it with the A/C compressor, you'll notice the engine sound will change slightly but the RPMs won't budge.

I liked using this mode for doing aggressive but controlled launches and accelerating away at WOT. It made starting up on steep hills a breeze. By the time the ECU returns full control to the go-pedal, I'm already fully off the clutch and moving and accelerating at WOT.

Hopefully the 1199 RPM set point can be raised to 2000-2200 RPM via tuning. Could this mode really be an "industrial" mode in the ECU?

Good luck.




Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
I've read that a failed go-pedal assembly causes the ECU to go into this mode as a limp mode for dealing with a failed go-pedal. Maybe unplugging the go-pedal assembly from the wire harness would be enough to trigger the governed 1199 RPM high idle or brake overides throttle mode. There have been cases in manual transmission TDIs where the go-pedal failed and the car was still driveable enough to limp it home. It is possible to get the car moving in this mode and run through the gears and get up to around 35 MPH with a dead go-pedal.

I'm really curious to know if the 1199 RPM set point can be turned up via tuning to dial in whatever governed RPM you want for the application. If it can be dialed up to 3600 RPM, this mode would be VERY useful for generator applications.
 
Last edited:

Lone Ranger

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Location
Winnipeg MB
TDI
TDI Ranger
why not use the actual accel pedal and just lock it at desired rpm?

Also cruise is tied into the brake light circut. its a 2 position, when one is off the other is on, depress pedal and they reverse. I know I could not get cruise to work properly until this was connected properly
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
same deal, set the driver's wish map up to have WOT be whatever revs the gen head wants to see, and remove the springs from the go pedal so the idle up solenoid mats the pedal and away it goes sitting at whatever RPM no matter the load, falling back to idle when you aren't welding

though, a 2-71 detroit would be more appropriate, if louder. :p
 

NateS2

New member
Joined
May 4, 2022
Location
UK
TDI
1.4
Sorry to drag this up, but if anyone else is doing this, EDC15 actually has all the functionality needed to run as an industrial engine. It can have its speed controlled by the cruise control pins so it can be adjusted on the fly. Or it can be set to a fix speed which it will automatically reach everytime the engine is started.
 
Top