Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

Perfectreign · Jul 1, 2016

Oilerlord said:
The original Chevy Volt and it's battery management made for a very durable, long term battery. /QUOTE]Good point. I was trolling on the gm-volt.com forums while looking at a Volt last year. Seems many people have Gen I volts with high miles and little battery issues. IIRC, the Volt - unlike the Leaf or Prius - uses liquid cooling for the batteries and handles charging more intelligently.

On a related note, there's an article on Fleet Karma talking about how safe electrics are compared to fuel-based cars. Some interesting pictures.

http://www.fleetcarma.com/electric-vehicles-fleet-safety/

gulfcoastguy · Jul 2, 2016

They are not yet to where I would accept them as an alternative to my TDI Sportwagen. In another 8 years or so they may be and I'll revisit the issue then.

dremd · Jul 2, 2016

gulfcoastguy said:
They are not yet to where I would accept them as an alternative to my TDI Sportwagen. In another 8 years or so they may be and I'll revisit the issue then.

I look at mine (EV) as a way to extend the service life of mine (Jetta Wagon) out by a factor of 2.

rwolff · Jul 2, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Not with 83 miles range, it isn't.

Despite it's limited range, the eGolf is an electric people's car - how do you say "people's car" in German?

tadawson · Jul 2, 2016

I dunno, how do you translate "$h1tbox"???

CraziFuzzy · Jul 3, 2016

dremd said:
I look at mine (EV) as a way to extend the service life of mine (Jetta Wagon) out by a factor of 2.

This is similar for me, but not for the JSW (which is gone in October hopefully). My daily driver was a Nissan Armada, that we need for travelling and towing our travel trailer. But my daily around town driving at 11.5 mpg is hard to deal with, as well as making a ton of short trips where the big V8 barely gets warm. I hated what it was doing to both the truck AND the fuel budget. Enter a Fiat 500e lease, and now the truck is driven about once a week, and the fuel savings alone pays for the lease payments. That little bright orange go-cart is seriously fun to drive too!

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 3, 2016

Doesn't it strike anyone else as ironic that often people choose an EV for short trips with relatively low total annual mileage, and save their fuel guzzling cars for longer drives?

This is where there can still be a future for diesels. I can see driving an EV locally, but I still want to get 40+ MPG when driving distances.

dremd · Jul 3, 2016

For me the short trips account for about 60% of my miles and the majority of the highway miles are loaded.
My ALH is still on the fuel I put in it in February.
Sprinter has been driven about 6,000 miles since then, 99.9% fully loaded, only local miles it sees is the I'm about to leave trip around the country block I take before a trip.

I totally don't claim to be normal though.
Sprinter reliably gets Between 24-24.5 mpg highway.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 3, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Doesn't it strike anyone else as ironic that often people choose an EV for short trips with relatively low total annual mileage, and save their fuel guzzling cars for longer drives?

This is where there can still be a future for diesels. I can see driving an EV locally, but I still want to get 40+ MPG when driving distances.

in a year, I drive about 10,000 miles around town, and about 4,000 miles on the highway. At least half of those highway miles are vacations pulling the travel trailer with a ton of gear and at least 4 passengers. So for me, the best combination is my SUV, and a small short-range EV - so that's now what I've got. A diesel car would only be utilized properly for about 2,000 miles a year for me (the non-towing highway trips).

My wife drives about 15,000 miles a year, mostly highway, with most days 40 miles round trip, but some 70-80 (which she won't know about until mi-day usually). For her, a diesel works, and is what she's been driving since we got the 09 JSW - but a plug-in hybrid would work for her better, because MOST days she'd be >50-100% pure electric (depending on the particular plug-in).

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 3, 2016

That makes sense. My driving is different: It's unusual for me to drive less than 60 miles in a day, frequently I drive over 100, and I take lots of short weekend trips that are 250-500 miles. So a fuel efficient diesel is the best fit for me for all those uses. On the 250-500 mile drives which might be a trip to western MA, NYC, or north to snowboard, I tend to drive pretty fast, often 80+, which I think would tax an EV, especially in winter. And a hybrid wouldn't get the FE my ALH does at those speeds.

I've never had any desire to tow a travel trailer. And one reason I stopped doing track days was because the writing was on the wall to get a tow vehicle and a dedicated track day car. Didn't want to go there. I enjoyed it, but not that much.

GoFaster · Jul 3, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Doesn't it strike anyone else as ironic that often people choose an EV for short trips with relatively low total annual mileage, and save their fuel guzzling cars for longer drives?

This is where there can still be a future for diesels. I can see driving an EV locally, but I still want to get 40+ MPG when driving distances.

I've split the daily-driver functions from the vacation/hauling functions. The daily grind accounts for 40,000 km per year and a Chevy Bolt could do most of that. The vacation/hauling is around 12,000 km per year. Current daily driver (small car) uses around 5-6 L/100 km, the van uses 11-12 L/100 km.

If I had a decent-range EV, probably once a month I'd have to use the van because of range needs combined with (current) lack of fast-charging infrastructure. It might add 6,000 km per year to the van and take it off the daily driver ... this would improve if SAE Combo fast-charge stations get built in useful locations (and this is a prerequisite for me buying an EV ... I won't buy a Tesla). Total gasoline usage today is around 3840 L/year and it would be around 2160 L/year in the proposed scenario but with more electricity being used - the net result is a wash. Hence why quick-charging infrastructure getting built is a prerequisite for me buying an EV ...

Getting a diesel in the van (Ram ProMaster) was possible but the economics did not make sense. And I won't buy anything that uses a Bosch CP4.1 HPFP and guess what that engine uses.

oilhammer · Jul 5, 2016

Other than Wal-mart, pretty much every trip from my house involves ~100 miles there and back. I do try and consolidate trips, though. Yesterday wife and I put 160 miles on the trusty Eurovan doing some shopping that involved items that would not have fit in anything else I own (save for the diesel Vanagon, but if we'd have taken that, I'd still be on my way home

).

Looking forward to the new Sprinter, as I am thinking it will beat the Eurovan's meager 19 MPGs and it'll have twice the interior volume to boot!

By the time an EV would work for me, I won't likely be driving much anymore. But I would have no problem with one if I lived in the city. Of course, I'd never live in the city so that is irrelevant.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 5, 2016

oilhammer said:
Other than Wal-mart, pretty much every trip from my house involves ~100 miles there and back. I do try and consolidate trips, though. Yesterday wife and I put 160 miles on the trusty Eurovan doing some shopping that involved items that would not have fit in anything else I own (save for the diesel Vanagon, but if we'd have taken that, I'd still be on my way home ).
Looking forward to the new Sprinter, as I am thinking it will beat the Eurovan's meager 19 MPGs and it'll have twice the interior volume to boot!
By the time an EV would work for me, I won't likely be driving much anymore. But I would have no problem with one if I lived in the city. Of course, I'd never live in the city so that is irrelevant.

You know full well not every car is suitable for every person, and you also know that 200 mile round trips for shopping are an extreme outlier. This is in no way a representation on the viability of EV's in the overall automotive marketplace.

kjclow · Jul 5, 2016

CraziFuzzy said:
This is similar for me, but not for the JSW (which is gone in October hopefully). My daily driver was a Nissan Armada, that we need for travelling and towing our travel trailer. But my daily around town driving at 11.5 mpg is hard to deal with, as well as making a ton of short trips where the big V8 barely gets warm. I hated what it was doing to both the truck AND the fuel budget. Enter a Fiat 500e lease, and now the truck is driven about once a week, and the fuel savings alone pays for the lease payments. That little bright orange go-cart is seriously fun to drive too!

That's the reason that my cousin has a stable of Pruii. I think they have three for her and the two kids at home. The Armada sits most of the time. The husband drives a 3/4 or full ton diesel heavy duty for work. I think it was a Ford.

oilhammer · Jul 5, 2016

CraziFuzzy said:
You know full well not every car is suitable for every person, and you also know that 200 mile round trips for shopping are an extreme outlier. This is in no way a representation on the viability of EV's in the overall automotive marketplace.

Yes, I do, and that is why I was speaking for myself. Not sure how/why you'd take that any other way

I think EVs would work for a great many car owners, possibly a substantial percentage of them. I am a supporter of them, they just don't work for me. There are other reasons some people, even those that COULD make use of them, won't buy them. Often those reasons have no merit, though.

FWIW, if I could buy an EV that could at least get 1/4 the "range" my current daily driver Golf can get, and costs about the same to own and operate over the long haul, I'd gladly consider one. Right now no such machine exists. Please let me know if I am mistaken. Like I said, I LIKE the idea of the EV. But not enough to make me bend my lifestyle location of my home in the country to make one work... for me.

VeeDubTDI · Jul 5, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Doesn't it strike anyone else as ironic that often people choose an EV for short trips with relatively low total annual mileage, and save their fuel guzzling cars for longer drives?

This is where there can still be a future for diesels. I can see driving an EV locally, but I still want to get 40+ MPG when driving distances.

You're absolutely right, especially for people who are conscious of their carbon emissions.

That said, parking a guzzler for everything except trips and special circumstances (towing or hauling) can really make sense. It might not make sense to spend the extra money on a diesel engine option on a vehicle that will only get used once per week.

VeeDubTDI · Jul 5, 2016

oilhammer said:
Yes, I do, and that is why I was speaking for myself. Not sure how/why you'd take that any other way

I think EVs would work for a great many car owners, possibly a substantial percentage of them. I am a supporter of them, they just don't work for me. There are other reasons some people, even those that COULD make use of them, won't buy them. Often those reasons have no merit, though.

FWIW, if I could buy an EV that could at least get 1/4 the "range" my current daily driver Golf can get, and costs about the same to own and operate over the long haul, I'd gladly consider one. Right now no such machine exists. Please let me know if I am mistaken. Like I said, I LIKE the idea of the EV. But not enough to make me bend my lifestyle location of my home in the country to make one work... for me.

I'm curious: would the upcoming Chevy Bolt work for your routine commuting needs? With 200 miles of range and quick charging options, I think it meets your requirement for about 25% of the range of an ALH Golf. Let's look at this independent of your thoughts on Chevrolet as a manufacturer. Also, would your employer entertain the idea of letting you charge at work - either with 120 volt trickle charging (3-4 mph charge speed), or with 240 volt level 2 charging (10-12 mph charge speed).

oilhammer · Jul 6, 2016

VeeDubTDI said:
I'm curious: would the upcoming Chevy Bolt work for your routine commuting needs? With 200 miles of range and quick charging options, I think it meets your requirement for about 25% of the range of an ALH Golf. Let's look at this independent of your thoughts on Chevrolet as a manufacturer. Also, would your employer entertain the idea of letting you charge at work - either with 120 volt trickle charging (3-4 mph charge speed), or with 240 volt level 2 charging (10-12 mph charge speed).

Would never own a GM vehicle, but that aside I am not all that fond of its styling and it looks to have the typical horrific rear blind spot problems (which is common on a lot of new cars).

I cannot even PARK at work, let alone have a dedicated charging station just for me. Our lot is so small and crammed, we (employees) have to park at one of three adjacent buildings' lots. For what it would cost to run the electric to one of those places, I could fuel my Golf for a VERY long time.

I also drive a lot, which would mean piling miles on. Currently I can divide some of the mileage up between a few cars, largely because I am seemingly always fixing something up to sell. That requires driving it to and from work here and there. So that Bolt (or similar) would find itself sitting here and there. I am not sure how the longevity of the electrics will be if that happens a lot, but conversely I am not sure how the longevity in the real world will be either. The Golf has zero problems sitting for 3 days, then being driven 300 miles in one day, then sitting for a day, then being driven 100 miles a day for the next 10 days in succession. And it does so happily and reliably despite closing in on 17 years since it left the factory in Brazil and having covered [currently] 504,xxx miles. It was also cheap. Including its purchase in a well used state, the costs of the Great Untooefing, and the few (very few) items I have had to "fix" on it since then, I probably have less than $5k in it TOTAL.

And I can tow my trailer (or a another car

) with it.

I can tag triple digit speeds in it (do this almost every morning).

I can blast the A/C and still accelerate UP hills, even with a trunk full of scrap.

Comfortable to drive, even for me, since Germans know how to make even small cars' interiors to accommodate full sized humans.

No exotic tire size, so I can enjoy 80k+ miles of real world treadlife without running them into the wear bars and putting myself in danger.

Brakes don't seem to ever wear out.

Very little nannyware (which I prefer).

I did like the electric Focus a lot one of our security guard fleets has. They are actually getting a couple more. They work well for them, we just need to make them understand that they need to come in every couple weeks to rotate the tires or they'll scorch right through the fronts (lots of parking lot driving in them). But they have to stop and changeout the cars mid shift, because they cannot go the whole time on a charge. Mainly because of HVAC demands, not so much range.

If the eGolf had the range and was cheap enough and was proven to last long enough, I would entertain that for sure. Even though I am still of the camp that thinks electrified ICE cars means too much compromise under most circumstances. But at least I could enjoy driving it.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 6, 2016

oilhammer said:
Yes, I do, and that is why I was speaking for myself. Not sure how/why you'd take that any other way

I was not taking it one way or another - My comment was only to ensure that other readers don't read the anecdotal outlier as the norm. EV's already have an uphill battle because a large group of people 'think' they don't have enough range, when in most cases, they do. Many can't get over the comparison to liquid fuels, and don't realize that with the EV, your 'tank is full' every morning.

oilhammer · Jul 6, 2016

Yep, and my Golf's tank was "1/3 full" this morning and it still got me 50 miles to work and it'll get me 50 miles home again.

Just so you know, I RECOMMEND to a LOT of people to at least look at the few available EVs out there. Very few actually buy them, though. I know a LOT of people that could make good use of them, too. Cost is a big factor. But now that a few of them are coming up used, and for REALLY CHEAP, it may be more appealing.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 6, 2016

oilhammer said:
Yep, and my Golf's tank was "1/3 full" this morning and it still got me 50 miles to work and it'll get me 50 miles home again.
Just so you know, I RECOMMEND to a LOT of people to at least look at the few available EVs out there. Very few actually buy them, though. I know a LOT of people that could make good use of them, too. Cost is a big factor. But now that a few of them are coming up used, and for REALLY CHEAP, it may be more appealing.

Yeah, the cost is the catch-22. Costs are high on EV's partly due to low production numbers - new productions lines, etc. High costs slow sales. As sales increase, production costs come down, allowing sales to increase further. The momentum is just barely starting to swing the right way - just barely.

bhtooefr · Jul 6, 2016

One thing that really needs to be solved is the apartment charging problem, for EV adoption - it's why I ended up going conventional hybrid instead of PHEV (BEV is a bridge a bit too far for me right now, due to my driving style - my commute would be all-electric on almost any PHEV (a Gen 1 PiP might start the engine both due to range and due to performance demands, but a Gen 1 PiP also means dealing with a Gen 3 Prius and the suck that that entails), but my other driving often is outside of BEV range, and I don't want to be tied to the Supercharger network).

Workplace charging can help with that, though, but my client has no charging available. If electric bicycles were legal in Ohio (there are a couple lobby groups, PeopleForBikes and the Bicycle Product Suppliers Association, working on fixing state laws regarding electric bicycles such that CPSC e-bikes are legal without onerous requirements - they've tweaked California's laws, and are now working on Delaware, New York (AFAIK the highest priority because of the legal situation there combined with the population density of NYC), South Carolina, and Vermont), it'd be another option to consider (and could be carried indoors and charged there, or the battery removed and carried indoors), and I'd be more likely to cycle to work if I could hold a bike on the 20 mph speed limit for a CPSC e-bike, rather than have to ascend hills at 5 mph, and cruise at 11-15 mph.

GoFaster · Jul 6, 2016

e-bikes are a disaster here. Most common transportation for someone who has lost their driver's license due to drunk driving. No licensing, no qualifications, no training, no insurance. They should have been licensed as a limited-speed motorcycle.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 6, 2016

I'm not sure apartment charging is some general 'problem' that needs to find a solution - I mean, the solution is there - install charging infrastructure at the apartments. It's just a matter of selling the landlord on the idea. (There are manufacturers that design and market chargers directly for multi-tenant installations).

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 6, 2016

oilhammer said:
Would never own a GM vehicle

I'm right there with you, oilhammer. GM has made some many crappy cars for so many decades, and with such arrogance that I don't think I could ever own one. It's amusing to me that when a new model is introduced (right now the one du jour is the Malibu) reviewers will write about how good this individual model is "for GM." As if they have the world's blessing to predominantly produce rotten cars. I read a review of the new Cruze recently that started with "you probably don't remember the Cobalt or the Cavalier. GM would like to keep it that way." The new Cruze seems OK to reviewers, but at what point do you decide that the company has a very, very long history of making terrible cars and you should never buy one?

I remember the Chevrolet Impalas and Cadillacs from the 60s. Those were good cars. But that was a long, long time ago.

bhtooefr · Jul 6, 2016

GoFaster said:
e-bikes are a disaster here. Most common transportation for someone who has lost their driver's license due to drunk driving. No licensing, no qualifications, no training, no insurance. They should have been licensed as a limited-speed motorcycle.

The thing is that you want to encourage their use instead of, say, illegally driven cars. And, 20 mph isn't any faster than a bicycle downhill. (And, I mean, there's plenty of US states where ICE mopeds up to 30 mph and 5 bhp are legal to ride unregistered and without insurance or a license...) It's also worth noting that getting hit by a 20 mph e-bike is far less lethal than being hit by a car.

So, I'll take drunks on 20 mph e-bikes over drunks driving cars without licenses, which is what happens here. (Or, party plates - basically, drunks explicitly being given limited driving privileges because car driving is essentially mandatory in Ohio.)

The other thing would be a European e-bike - 25 km/h, 250 W max, and no throttle allowed, only pedal assist.

CraziFuzzy said:
I'm not sure apartment charging is some general 'problem' that needs to find a solution - I mean, the solution is there - install charging infrastructure at the apartments. It's just a matter of selling the landlord on the idea. (There are manufacturers that design and market chargers directly for multi-tenant installations).

Well... The problem is just that, selling landlords on the idea. Tax incentives for them to do it would help, mind you. (And, you've also got some places where apartments only have street parking, so the municipality needs to do it.)

The other way to go would be a technical solution, although a difficult one that I've only seen done on e-bikes, Chinese scooters, and one European market light quadricycle (so it'd be a FMVSS 500 low speed vehicle here) - removable batteries that are small enough to carry inside to charge. This requires a very small vehicle though, to be practical.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 6, 2016

bhtooefr said:
Well... The problem is just that, selling landlords on the idea. Tax incentives for them to do it would help, mind you. (And, you've also got some places where apartments only have street parking, so the municipality needs to do it.)

The other way to go would be a technical solution, although a difficult one that I've only seen done on e-bikes, Chinese scooters, and one European market light quadricycle (so it'd be a FMVSS 500 low speed vehicle here) - removable batteries that are small enough to carry inside to charge. This requires a very small vehicle though, to be practical.

It should be handled like any other apartment amenity. If you want it, you shop for it when apartment hunting. If an apartment puts them in, they market it. I certainly don't see a reason I should be paying for apartment owners to install them, and reap the benefits (increased marketing, passthrough plus per kWh fees, etc). In the past, the only technical deterrent was the electric grid availability - but the newer network managed/grouped chargers can split available supply between the connected vehicles to maximize what limited infrastructure is there.

Regarding apartments that don't even HAVE parking, I don't know what to tell you other than don't live there if you plan on owning a car, because that's pretty crappy no matter what fuel your vehicle uses.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 6, 2016

Do you know how few apartments in Boston come with parking? Almost none. That excludes a large number of potential users whose driving habits are probably a good fit with EVs. Parking spaces in some better neighborhoods are sold as condos, usually for well over $100K. Street parking is the norm. Most employers in the city don't provide parking, either, although people who live and work in the city are more inclined to use public transportation. Reverse commuters may have better luck finding employers with parking and charging stations.

CraziFuzzy · Jul 6, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Do you know how few apartments in Boston come with parking? Almost none. That excludes a large number of potential users whose driving habits are probably a good fit with EVs. Parking spaces in some better neighborhoods are sold as condos, usually for well over $100K. Street parking is the norm. Most employers in the city don't provide parking, either, although people who live and work in the city are more inclined to use public transportation. Reverse commuters may have better luck finding employers with parking and charging stations.

My recommendation stands though...

kjclow · Jul 6, 2016

bhtooefr said:
The thing is that you want to encourage their use instead of, say, illegally driven cars. And, 20 mph isn't any faster than a bicycle downhill.

My new road bike cruises very comfortably at about 22 mph on gentle ascending and decending slopes. On bigger hills, I've had it at over 40 mph, and I'm not that aggressive of a rider, yet! Most of my rides, now pushing over 30 miles, average about 12 mph due to water breaks (both in and out) and traffic lights.

Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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