Increase RPM limit and HP by 40%

Status
Not open for further replies.

RED

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
NC, USA
TDI
2012 TDI 4dr GOLF 6sp MAN
http://www.pattakon.com/pre/index.html

Has technology that can increase the peak power rpm by up to 40% (I.E. 4000 to 5600 rpm) by changing the relationship of the conrod/crank/piston. It allows piston dwell of up to 40 % longer at TDC which will allow faster mean piston speed. My understanding is that the rpm limit is due mostly to slow mixture burn and thus allowing more time by slowing the piston where applicable then allows greater mean piston speed.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Conceptually, that's correct. If you make the piston dwell longer near TDC then the combustion process "looks" like it is happening at a lower RPM with the conventional layout.

I question how strong con-rods of that design would be, though.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
This is but one of many,many variations of a scotch yoke mechanism or slider mechanism. I would say the biggest advantage of such designs is the elimination of the articulating motion of the conrods with the secondary imbalances they introduce, although this particular design still has something of a "conrod." The benefits include negligible side forces on the piston against the cylinder wall, which leads to less bore distortion and less frictional losses at the piston-bore interface (but may introduce more elsewhere due to more degrees of freedom that need bearings). The other benefit is also a truly sinusoidal motion: Longer dwell at BDC and TDC, and lower variation between max. piston speed and mean piston speed, and ultimately lower G forces for a given mean piston speed and reciprocating mass.

Like Brian says, the theory is sound, but it WON'T do 40% more power/RPM.

There are many, many variations of engine designs like this and more novel designs as well. Some links to examples below.

http://www.sliderengine.com
http://jack-brabham-engines.com
http://www.new4stroke.com/
 
Last edited:

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
That last link is interesting, but it seems like it would do horribly on emmissions: no swirl possible(?) ...now if it were combined with those improved Scotch yoke designs, that would look cool.

Hmmm 50% increase in displacement...you'd need a bigger turbo for a given application....also, engine friction would go up a lot, no?
 
Last edited:

RED

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
NC, USA
TDI
2012 TDI 4dr GOLF 6sp MAN
Actually it is nothing like a scotch-yoke which has perfect sinusoidal piston motion. equal dwell at BDC and TDC.
Read this:
http://www.strokerengine.com/RodStroke2.html

This design takes the normal short dwell at TDC and the long dwell at BDC of the convention conrod/crank engine and inverts it, to create the exact opposite. It goes one further by decreasing the length of the conrod it increases the dwell to a greater degree.
Whether it does it by up to 40% is the claim of the inventor.
Also read this:
http://www.pattakon.com/ppe/ppe.htm

The original idea of the Pulling piston engine.

If you have questions about his ideas ask him I did.
His web page is:
http://www.pattakon.com/
 

RED

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
NC, USA
TDI
2012 TDI 4dr GOLF 6sp MAN
The conrods will be under tension loads during the power stroke and should be fine as compared to the conventional design where the conrod can bend under compression loads.
 

RED

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
NC, USA
TDI
2012 TDI 4dr GOLF 6sp MAN
TDIMeister said:
There are many, many variations of engine designs like this...
I have done extensive searches and have found none utilizing the inverse relationship of the conrod/crankshaft/piston to extend the dwell at TDC.
Other than the many scotch-yoke designs, of which this is nothing like, do you know of any?
 

Kiwi_ME

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 1999
Location
New Zealand
TDI
'18 Kona EV, ex '03 Golf TDI, '82 Rabbit Diesel
Yes, clearly it's not a skotch yoke, just a flipped-over piston.

It appears that the ratio of bore to stroke must always be high in order to house the swing of the con rod big end within the 'lower' part of the piston, whatever issues that may have I don't know. This shows up in his 3-D designs but not the 2-D graphic showing the principle.

Another potential issue is that the sliding weight may be higher now so that the imbalance of (2nd order) vertical forces (eg, in a in-line 4) might be more significant due to the dwell behavior at TDC vs BDC.
 
Last edited:

RED

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
NC, USA
TDI
2012 TDI 4dr GOLF 6sp MAN
I like the idea of extended dwell at TDC because it gets closer to constant volume combustion which I believe to be more efficient.
Also the extended dwell can help the diesel reduce NOx emissions by allowing retarded injection with out reducing the BSFC.
CMC has claimed this with their scotch-yoke design due to this.
http://www.cmcpower.com/html/howitworks/advantages.asp
The imbalances can be dealt with similar to the existing inline 4s issues.
The design of the piston can be altered to make it stronger.
All these issues can be dealt with, but it was the design feature of extended dwell that I have great interest in and wanted to share with my fellow diesel lovers.
After researching his PPE design
http://www.pattakon.com/ppe/ppe.htm
I had come up with a design that would solve the rod in the chamber issue and allow state of art head design to be used.
It was a half a rhombic drive mechanism with twin cranks and conrods per piston, but it had quite a few issues to resolve, one being the extra mass.
I saw his new design and thought it more elegant and much lighter than mine.
 

RED

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2000
Location
NC, USA
TDI
2012 TDI 4dr GOLF 6sp MAN
I asked about the stroke to bore ratio limitation that I thought existed and you also see.
His responce.

"No, there is not such limit.

You can have PRE with longer stroke than bore (for instance: 75 Bore with 100 Stroke)..."

Thank you
Manousos
 

JamesBa

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Location
Maryland
TDI
GOLF '02
Red,
What else do you know about Sonex? I'm curious. I've been following this technology for a couple years now and see how it can help us switch to a (bio)diesel economy.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
JamesBa said:
If you design a piston head with small holes in it, you can achieve combustion without a sparkplug at a low compression ratio (i.e. 12:1). Read on for details:
http://www.washingtonfreepress.org/73/gasEngineUseDiesel.htm

http://www.gizmag.com/go/4695/
... but with higher thermal losses due to the additional surface area in the passages themselves, and thus, lower thermal efficiency than an engine of similar compression ratio but without those holes. Also, if there is any fuel in the air passing through such holes, it probably won't burn due to wall quenching (thus higher HC emissions). Call me a skeptic.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
This Sonex stuff appears to be an extension of work Honda did with direct two-stroke engines that ran without a spark by carrying over active radical species from one cycle to the next.

Sustained fire needs four elements:

1. Heat
2. Fuel
3. Oxidizer
4. Presence of active radical chemical species.


Honda gave up on the idea because although it worked at some rpm's, the dynamics of changing fluid dynamics with different engine rpm's and loading requirements snuffed out the active radical pilot light. After that, it became very hard to re-ignite and the spark had to be relied on most of the time. It had very limited usefulness.

I could see something like this working under steady-state loading WITH very advanced engine controls that have a way to monitor in-cylinder pressures, temperatures, and do fast calorimetry.

I doubt it would pass the cost-benefit barrier though.
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
I can speak from inside and say that HCCI is making some progress, although it it still years before consumers will likely be able to buy cars with engines operating in-whole or in-part under HCCI.

A lot of research and development is currently undergoing in parallel to HCCI with something of an intermediate technology that has also been long in the works. Different groups call it different names -- Highly-premixed compression ignition (HPCI), PCC (premixed cool combustion), flameless combustion, Blue-flame compression ignition, Low-NOx combustion, etc. ... in spite of the different nomenclature, the principle is the same: to operate an internal combustion engine under a pre-mixed combustion regime, but at peak gas- and flame temperatures below the threshhold for thermal NOx formation, that is, in the order of 2100-2200 K. It is found that high process temperatures not only encourage thermal NOx but also has a negative compounding effect for soot formation in fuel-rich zones. Low combustion temperatures effectively freezes the kinetics of thermal NOx formation, while pre-mixing and low-temperatures effectively deal with soot.

The latter premixed-cool combustion is more easy to achieve, control and maintain over a wide speed-and load range than pure HCCI; paramount in the operation is a low-oxygen content (less than 12%, compared to 21% in ambient air), low compression ratios, and early start-of-injection long before TDC.

This is already driving some trends in Diesel engine design that will continue on in the future: compression ratios decreasing from over 20:1 to 16.5:1 and decreasing further, possibly levelling to 15-15.5:1. EGR is here to stay, and EGR rates will only increase further. This mode of engine operation, and the need for very low-oxygen content, will mean EGR rates of over 40-60%, and over a wider load and speed range. In order to maintain engine power output with less available oxygen in the intake charge, this will result in more application of very-high boost pressures, and elaborate "long-path" forced-induction systems incorporating multiple charging devices in staged -or compounded arrangements (they are different, so be aware of the distinction!!)

Interesting days are ahead for engine development!
 

manolis1

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Athens
TDI
none
Pattakon PRE engine

Increasing more and more the con-rod length, you finally get a harmonic or pure sinusoidal piston motion. Such a piston motion increases the constant volume portion of combustion and so increases the efficiency and the pick power at high revs. What actually the long rod makes is to keep the piston around TDC for more time. But the height of the engine would be enormous and the long con-rod would bend immediately.

At the http://www.pattakon.com/pre/index.html it is presented the pattakon PRE engine.

The following slide explains PRE differences from convnetional



and here they are shown the internals of a four stroke PRE (the con-rod can move without hitting the piston and the cylinder, i.e. no need for oversquare design)



The conventional engine offers a sub-sinusoidal piston motion around TDC. This PRE engine offers an over-sinusoidal piston motion around TDC, i.e. it increases a lot the constant volume portion of combustion. The shorter the con-rod length, the longer the time the piston stays near TDC. The PRE engine can be overquare, square or undersquare.

In the plot below what you see is the piston travel versus the crank angle for a conventional engine, the PattakonPRE (both using conrod to stroke ratio equal to 1.65) and the Harmonic engine.




If the conventional is revving at 1.35 times SLOWER than the PRE (for instance the conventional is revving at 5600 rpm while the PRE is revving at 7500 rpm), then around TDC the working medium (air or mixture) cannot see any difference. The orange curve in plot below is (around TDC) identical to the blue curve of the PRE.



If the conventional is revving at 1,35 times FASTER than the PRE, then around BDC the working medium cannot see any difference again. The orange curve in the plot below is (around BDC) identical to the blue curve of the PRE.



So the PRE as regards TDC is nothing but a conventional revving at significantly slower revs, and as regards the BDC, the PRE is nothing but a conventional revving at significantly faster revs.

It is obvious that the valve lift profiles (if valves are used) have to be change to suit to the PRE piston motion, as well as the spark advance (or the injection advance in case of Diesel). If necessary, the PRE can use Pattakon’s Variable Valve Actuation (or VVA) system in order to optimize breathing along the whole rev range (you can see details for this breathing system at http://www.pattakon.com/as well as the pattakon’s prototype cars).

Think of a Junkers-PRE engine like this one:






In pattakon site there is the relevant animation.

Here is a detailed design of a Pattakon PRE straight four, four stroke cycle




here is a supercharged version of the Junkers-PRE




I’ll be glad to answer your questions.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
 

Feliks

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Location
Krakow
TDI
mercedes 508
manolis1 said:
.......I’ll be glad to answer your questions.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
Last I see similar engine:


But yours designs are most compact.
regards Andrew
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
Andrew, check out FEV's (my former employer) OPOC engine. Conceived by a former VW engineer who's responsible for the original water-cooled VW Diesel engine; look up Hofbauer on SAE.

I will address the "40% higher RPM diesel" claim (again) in more detail later.
 

manolis1

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Athens
TDI
none
Feliks said:
Last I see similar engine:

But yours designs are most compact.
regards Andrew
Andrew,

Don't forget the characteristic of the Junkers-PRE: its pistons stay for longer near TDC (or combustion region) which in turn offers better conditions to the combustion to take place.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
As much as 3 years ago there was a thread also started by RED about a 6000 RPM Diesel engine citing the same Pattakon engine, to which I posted a reply. I think much of the discussion there is relevant in this thread, so here is the link:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=66597

The important point that was mentioned but obviously overlooked was the ignorance of the important distinction of combustion processes occurring in the time- and crank-angle -- or analogously, the frequency -- domains … someone either never took or failed a course in Laplace transforms :D … for that reason, I quote it again below for emphasis:

Heywood and others have found that in contrast to conventional gasoline engines where the rate of combustion scales according to crank angle, in Diesel engines, combustion proceeds largely as a function in the time domain.

What this basically means is that in a gasser, combustion begins and goes to substantial completion in a relatively constant number of crank angle degrees whether at 2000 rpm or 6000 rpm, although at 6000 rpm there's 1/3 the amount of time in seconds for this to happen.

In contrast, in Diesel engines, there is a {rate-limiting, time-dominant} component of the fuel injection, mixing and ignition delay within the overall combustion process that takes a relatively long, fixed and finite amount of time in seconds, largely independent of crank angle. So, as the RPMs rise, these processes must occur over a greater number of crank angle degrees for a given amount of time, or what we know as "dwell."
What this means in plain old English is that even if the “constant-volume” dwell in crank-angle degrees can be increased by some novel engine mechanism design, you will not get a proportional increase in revving capability of a Diesel engine.

Premixed (read gasser) combustion appears to scale with RPM due to small-scale turbulence also exhibiting this RPM (actually mean piston speed)-related behaviour (ref. Heywood). Diffusion (read Diesel) combustion is limited to the rate of diffusion, which means the physical, state-change process of fuel jet molecules evaporating and entraining into the hot compressed air and forming locales of combustible fuel-air mixture (ref. Peters, Heywood, etc.). This is only (relatively) weakly affected by turbulence due to the enhanced transport of fuel molecules in a turbulent flow-field vis-à-vis laminar or quiescent ones; and the enhanced convective heat transfer and therefore liquid fuel evaporation rate.

That said, many non-conventional engine mechanisms have been devised over the years in order to maximize this dwell at TDC, so that said, this concept is not new.
For that reason, despite being flammed for my oversight, I have lumped all engines with these kinds of mechanisms as simply variations of the scotch-yoke, not because they are design-similar, but because of what they all try to achieve geometrically in terms of the cylinder-volume-to-crank-angle relationship.

It should be pointed out that the benefits of a long dwell at TDC does not only benefit Diesel engines but ALL engines that work on a thermodynamic cycle. This is because for a given compression ratio, thermal efficiency increases as you go from a constant pressure combustion process (not really achieved in modern engines) to a constant volume one (also not really achieved in the real-world); both spark ignition and high-speed Diesel engines work on a process that is approximated analytically by a thermodynamic model that is something of a hybrid of the Otto (constant volume) and Diesel (constant pressure) cycles. This is known as a "pressure-limited" or "dual-combustion" cycle.
Unfortunately, this is a highly idealized, Thermodynamics 101 analysis of engine cycles. While true in the idealized sense, it does not take into any account the real-world realities of engine design, such as non-quasi-stationary workings of an engine, as well as practical limits of peak cycle pressure (due to engine structural strength) and peak cycle temperature (due to the realms of possibility of combustion rate and temperature of common fuels; thermal stress and NOx emission considerations).

In “Thermodynamics 201,” one has to apply knowledge from many other disciplines (mechanics, design, combustion, chemistry, etc.). All real-world engines have to consider limiting values for peak cycle pressure and temperature, and with these in mind, the best compromise for high thermal efficiency, high BMEP, low engine stresses and low NOx emissions is NOT a pure constant-volume cycle but rather something in between a constant-volume and constant-pressure one. In fact, one can find by calculation, that with a given limiting maximum cycle pressure, the highest thermal efficiency is actually achieved with a pure constant-pressure cycle! This can also be illustrated qualitatively and graphically by sketching a T-S diagram comparing the different cycles of interest to a Carnot cycle operating within the same temperature and pressure limits, and any mechanical engineer worth his salt is called upon to be able to do this task!

To summarize, it is sound theory that by lengthening the dwell at TDC, a Diesel engine can be made to rev higher, within the boundaries of other geometrical considerations and limitations in the combustion process.
Still a true statement, but I just want to point-out and emphasize an X% increase in TDC dwell will not mean an X% increase of RPM capability, nor an X% increase in HP potential, nor an X% increase in efficiency,
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
TDIMeister said:
(snipped) I just want to point-out and emphasize an X% increase in TDC dwell will not mean an X% increase of RPM capability, nor an X% increase in HP potential, nor an X% increase in efficiency,
All good comments. I thought I'd point out that scotch-yoke designs also add a lot of additional rotating mass to the engine, which will impose an inertial cost when trying to accelerate and deccelerate.
 

manolis1

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Athens
TDI
none
TDIMeister said:
As much as 3 years ago there was a thread also started by RED about a 6000 RPM Diesel engine citing the same Pattakon engine, to which I posted a reply. I think much of the discussion there is relevant in this thread, so here is the link:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=66597

. . . . .

Still a true statement, but I just want to point-out and emphasize an X% increase in TDC dwell will not mean an X% increase of RPM capability, nor an X% increase in HP potential, nor an X% increase in efficiency,


TDIMeister,

RED presented three years ago the PPE Pattakon engine.
PPE is the father of the PRE Pattakon engine.
Look at www.pattakon.com/pre/index.html .

When you get the chance, take a look at the Pattakon’s US patent 6,062,187 and then at the four year later HONDA’s endeavour on the same exactly problem with the US patents 6,763,796 and 6,786,189 (at http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html ). Spot on the complication of each solution.
Honda’s patents start with “In order to increase thermal efficiency by increasing the constant volume portion of combustion, it is proposed . . . “

Nobody can say that
“Still a true statement, but I just want to point-out and emphasize an X% increase in TDC dwell will not mean an X% increase of RPM capability, nor an X% increase in HP potential, nor an X% increase in efficiency”
is wrong.

Especially the last part of the statement ‘nor an X% increase in efficiency’ which is wrong beyond any doubt.

But an X% increase in TDC dwell may lead to a good Y% increase of RPM capability, given the strength of the engine, in terms of inertia, permits it.
But the Y is not necessarily less than X.
At 6000 rpm, with properly adjusted valve train system (including changes on the size of the valves, on the timing of the valves, on the valve lift, on the geometry of the intake and exhaust etc) the engine can be even self supercharged (look at the Pattakon VVA system and the Honda civic B16 prototype at www.pattakon.com web site). Beyond the increase of the air quantity trapped into the cylinder per cycle – compared to the, let say, 4500 rpm of the conventional engine – there is also increased turbulence.

As the piston approaches TDC (let say in the region +-15% of the stroke), the compressed air sees no difference either being injected into the PRE rotating at 6000 rpm or into the conventional rotating at 4500 rpm (more correctly it sees an important difference: in the PRE the turbulence is a lot increased).
The plot of the ‘piston travel versus crank angle around TDC’ in my previous reply shows the case.
Once more: As regards the region –45 to +45 degrees around TDC, the air and then the mixture see the same conditions of air pressure, air temperature, small scale air motion etc. As long as all (or a great part) of the most important events/processes like injection, delay and combustion of the Diesel take place inside this region of –45 to +45 degrees, I cannot see why the PRE at 6000 rpm cannot make the torque of the conventional at 4500 rpm, i.e. why the PRE cannot increase the power output of the conventional Diesel by more than 30%.

I hear you saying that when the engine’s breath is tuned at 6000 rpm, it is not expected to breath the same well, or at least to have good turbulence, in medium of low revs. The Pattakon Variable Valve Actuation (or VVA) system is the cure: it can provide whatever breath you like at all revs. Ttake a look at www.pattakon.com/vva/VVA_Idle/VVA_Idle.htm where the same engine idles at 330 rpm and revs at 9000 rpm on the road, as shown in the video www.pattakon.com/vvar/OnBoard/A1.MOV . Then, if your are interested in “how this is done” take a look at he photo collection at www.pattakon.com/vvar/OnBoard/Assembly.exe ).

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
 

manolis1

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Athens
TDI
none
TDIMeister,

Saying that at 6000 rpm the PRE Diesel can be even self superrcharged, I just emphasized on the fact that at higher revs it is easier to tune the breath of an engine and that the PRE at 6000 can trap into its cylinder at least as much air as the conventional at 4500.

Looked at from another point of view, suppose you ar a fuel droplet injected either into the cylinder of the conventional revving at 4500 rpm or into the cylinder of the PRE revving at 6000 rpm.
The only thing you see is the 'walls' of the combustion chamber, i.e. the cylinder head, if any, the piston top and the cylinder wall.
What you 'touch' is the air which has some temperature, some pressure and some velocity - in high ans in small scale -.
You, as a fuel droplet, cannot 'see' the crankshaft or the kinematic mechanism.

I.e., you, as a droplet, cannot say (for sure) that you were injected and burned into the PRE revving at 6000 rpm or into the conventional revving at 4500 rpm.
(Just like an observer into an elevator: he cannot say if the elevator is stoped or the elevator moves with constant velocity, he cannot also say if the elevator is in earth's gravity or it is just accelerating with g).

The previous does happen during the last +-15% part of the piston stroke (which relates to +-45 degrees of PRE crankshaft from TDC). In Diesel all the important events happen in this interval. At the expansion cycle that follows, the PRE again prevails to conventional.

I think this simpleminded approach helps

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos




The
 

manolis1

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Athens
TDI
none
To everyone.

I am confused from not taking a reply, any reply.

Do you agree with the simpleminded explanation for the capabilities of PRE as a high performance Diesel or what?

By the way, today a new animation added at http://www.pattakon.com/pre/droplet.exe

I hope it helps

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I understand where you are coming from, but I have strong reservations about the capability of that mechanism to withstand the very high cylinder pressures (~ 185 bar peak cylinder pressure) found in modern turbodiesel engines. To me, the parts of the mechanism look more expensive to manufacture, also.
 

manolis1

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Athens
TDI
none
GoFaster,

So, we have two problems:

It is the inability of the PRE to carry the extreme loads of the turbo diesel. Which, do you think, is the weakest point of the PRE compared to conventional turbo Diesel? I need to know in order to reinforce the specific point. On the other hand, PRE seems to improve power concentration by increasing the revs of efficient operation, so PRE could operate as a naturally aspirating Diesel, being as powerful as the typical turbo Diesels.

It is also the problem of the expensive construction. What exactly do you think makes the PRE more expensive to make? Did you think of the Junkers-PRE simplicity and inexpensiveness?

But PRE's efficiency and power concentration was the subject matter here. I didn't yet saw an answer. The question REMAINS.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top