Amsoil In this Thread only

I have been using the Series 3000 5w-30 in my engine since 5,000 miles. I now have 55,000 miles. I have been changing the oil filter every 5,000 miles and the oil and filter every 10,000 miles. I guess it it time to do an oil analysis.

AndyH said:

I received 'an' answer today...

"In response to your inquiry, thank you for your input. To avoid
confusion and possible misapplication, we will continue recommending
only the AFL, as it is required for newer models. The DEO and many other
choices are OK to use in these older VW's however."

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Andy, could you please comment on the response you received? Which "older VW's" are they referring to? Just switched from AFL to DEO.

(my assumption is they are trying to cover for the majority of people who have no idea vw makes different engines that need different oil)

greengeeker

what does your manual show - does it have a API or I should say SAE spec Cx. If it does then DEO will be a good oil and price wise I doubt you find anything better, expception being Mobil. Rotella is not 100% syn. I hope you will do some UOA's we need more on DEO.

Rotella T 5w40 sure as heck isn't dino oil there wjdell. Not dino = synthetic, it's not found in nature.

Comparing the group 3 Rotella T 5w40 to the group 4 Mobil 1 oil..gee both are great oils.

I have been using Elf Full-Tech 0w30 in the '01 Golf, which has never used much oil - maybe 250 ml per 10K, if that. The usage seems to be slightly less with the Full-Tech. I may even get my first UOA, just to see how the old baby is doing. Anyone else using Full-Tech? It has MB 229.5, BMW LL01, and VW 502.00/505.00 approvals. Is DEO better?

Ray

raybo said:

Anyone else using Full-Tech? It has MB 229.5,

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I've got just a single UOA covering the FULL TECH...it's stellar

DD - I know about yours.... I am surprised we haven't heard about any others using this oil.

Ray

There certainly are others. Ask indigobluewagon. I suspect he's got more direct experience than anyone else.

wjdell said:

what does your manual show - does it have a API or I should say SAE spec Cx. If it does then DEO will be a good oil and price wise I doubt you find anything better, expception being Mobil. Rotella is not 100% syn. I hope you will do some UOA's we need more on DEO.

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My manual states (and is highlighted by the previous owner )
- VW 505.00
- ACEA B3 or ACEA B4
- API Service CF4 or API Service CG4

I'm interested in getting a UOA done...anyone have any recommendations for the twin cities? I wish I had done one on the AFL I just pulled out for comparison purposes - although I'm sure there is still quite a bit of AFL mixed in with the DEO at this point.

Well than you can use CJ4 with out worries. Or you can back up a step and use CI4.

greengeeker said:

Andy, could you please comment on the response you received? Which "older VW's" are they referring to? Just switched from AFL to DEO.

(my assumption is they are trying to cover for the majority of people who have no idea vw makes different engines that need different oil)

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Sure - the 2004 and newer TDIs require 505.01. The 2003 and earlier model year cars (the older VW's) only require 505.00 and allow API synthetics.

Since 505.00 is ancient, and has been passed by a number of API diesel upgrades, any synthetic CI-4+ or CJ-4 oil on the street is going to far outperform any 505.00 only product.

I've used nearly all of AMSOIL's products in my B4s and the one I'm sticking with in my old car (359K) is the DEO CJ-4 5W-40. My favorite is still the HDD 5W-30 and I'd recommend this product for extended drain intervals in cars with fewer than 300,000 miles.

Andy - I don't understand. Elf Full-Tech is an extended-drain full-synthetic oil. It can go as long as 50,000 KM (31K miles). It has approval of all 3 German auto makers. It is 505.00 approved, but MB 229.5 and BMW LL01 are not ancient specs. Are the approvals for Full-Tech more ancient than for Amsoil HDD 5w30?

http://www.total.co.at/lub/content/NT000B81DE.pdf

I have recommended that my Father use Motul 505.01 100% Synthetic in his 2003 TDI (ALH Motor). Since the 505.01 superceeds 505.00 and on the bottle it states 505.01/505.00/502.00 this will be the best choice. I drive an 04 TDI with the PD Engine and we can probably get a decent price on a case of the 1L bottles. I have decided to stick with VW's recommendation and keep it simple.

lovemybug said:

This is intriguing to me as I'm currently running DEO in my car. Maybe I should switch over to the AFL on my next oil change? I don't know what was in the engine when I got it from the dealer, but this is the first batch of oil that I put in the car.

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Guys,

I don't think 505.01 - especially the 2nd generation 502/505.01 products - is the best choice for 2003 and earlier TDIs - especially when looking at the AMSOIL lineup.

I'm not saying it won't work, and I'm not saying the engine won't last a long time.

2nd Generation 505.01 also picks up the BMW and Benz specs, and the ACEA Cx emissions requirement. Yes - these are the latest specs, but the goal for them is emissions protection and fuel savings and the chemical limits put a LOT more pressure on the additive package to simply MAINTAIN protection. They aren't necessarily providing any improvement in protection - just emissions safety and fuel mileage.

The same thing happened with the API heavy duty specs from CI-4+ to CJ-4. CJ-4 has to be particulate filter compatible - CI-4+ doesn't. CI-4+ (especially the premium products like D1 and AMSOIL) can give excellent protection and long oil life. The CJ-4 products have to handle higher heat better, they must handle more soot, and they must protect the DPF. This shift in goals for the oil has caused a decrease in oil life. It's a balancing act - the oil can't do everything all the time - the main goals are reached, and something ends up losing out.

Comparing oil life for the VW 'world' -- 502.00, 505.00, and 505.01 are 1 year or 10,000 mile products. This should be a severe service interval. 506.01 is an extended interval product - and can go up to 50,000 KM or 2 years...for normal service in perfect conditions. This equates to an approximate 15,000 mile severe interval.

In the API Cx world, there's a LOT of proof that D1 can go longer than 15K miles in severe service. AMSOIL's 5w-30 and 15W-40 CI-4+ products are guaranteed for 1 year or 25,000 miles of light-duty turbodiesel service for normal, and 15,000 miles or 1 year of severe. It will often run longer if oil analysis is used.

SO...If one doesn't need 505.01 or 506.01, and isn't experimenting with 0W-30, I'd strongly suggest that a CI-4+ product be first choice for both value and drain interval, or CJ-4 for max protection in a higher soot environment.

raybo said:

Andy - I don't understand. Elf Full-Tech is an extended-drain full-synthetic oil. It can go as long as 50,000 KM (31K miles). It has approval of all 3 German auto makers. It is 505.00 approved, but MB 229.5 and BMW LL01 are not ancient specs. Are the approvals for Full-Tech more ancient than for Amsoil HDD 5w30?

http://www.total.co.at/lub/content/NT000B81DE.pdf

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Raybo, I don't disagree with what your saying here. Yes - these are very recent specs.

But HDD 5W-30 and all the other CI-4+ oils haven't been subjected to the chemical restrictions that the newer Euro oils have been subjected to.

Remember the grumbling right after AMSOIL's AFL was reformulated and went from a CI-4+ oil with 505.00 to a CF with 505.01? Remember how the additive package appeared weaker in spectro analysis?

Comparing the latest Euro oils with earlier oils, or US oils, is as valid as comparing motorcycle oil with heavy duty diesel oil with the 0W-10 used in some hybrids -- each product is tweaked to the application. The 0W-10 would be a horrible choice in a TDI or a Peterbilt, for example.

I hope that helps. Andy

Just for comparison, here are the specs for both Amsoil DEO 5W-40 and the HDD Series 3000 5W-30. This is what's stated on their website. Keep in mind that I'm currently running the DEO on my engine and it's got about 2500 miles on this current batch of oil.

Amsoil DEO:
• API CJ-4, CI-4+, CH-4, CF
• API SM, SL, SJ...
• ACEA E7
• Mack EO-O Premium Plus
• DDC Power Guard 93K218
• Caterpillar ECF-3, ECF-1
• Cummins CES 20081
• Volvo VDS-4
• MB 228.3
• MTU Type II
Here's also the technical properties listed for that oil:


And the same reccommendations for the HDD Series 3000 5W-30:
• API CI-4+, CF, CF-2, SL • ACEA A3/B3, E2, E3, E5 • Global DHD-1 • JASO DH-1 • Mack EO-N Premium Plus ’03 • DDC Power Guard 93K214 • Caterpillar ECF-1 • Cummins CES 20071, 20072, 20076, 20077, 20078 • Volvo VDS-2, VDS-3 • MB 228.1, 228.3, 229.1 • MAN 3275 • MTU Type 1 • MIL-PRF-2104G

And the technical properties for that same oil:


Here is also what it says about extended drain intervals for each one:
DEO 5W-40:
SERVICE LIFE
AMSOIL Synthetic 5W-40 Premium Diesel Oil is recommended for use according to the longest service interval established by the engine, vehicle or equipment manufacturer. Drain intervals may be extended when monitored by oil analysis.

HDD Series 3000 5W-30:

Sorry for the long post. It looks like, based on what I've shown here, that I should probably plan on a 10k oil change on the DEO irregardless. I'm curious to hear any comments on this.

Amsoil AFL European formula 5W-40

Also for other comparison, here's the same data for the Amsoil AFL:

• API SM/CF
• ACEA C3-04
• ACEA A3/B3-04
• ACEA A3/B4-04
• BMW LL-04
• Mercedes Benz 229.31, 229.51
• Porsche
• Saab
• Volvo
• Volkswagen 502.00, 505.00, 505.01
• DaimlerChrysler MS-10725

Service Life
Recommended for the extended drain intervals established by the vehicle manufacturer or extend based on oil analysis. Change oil filter at time of oil change.

Technical Properties:
80.81745204 (-30)230 (446)246 (474)-42 (-44)8.90.448.03.7
Now this is what they have on the Amsoil website and that is the comparison data I'm going by just so we're comparing apples to apples.

I like Amsoil products. I've used them for over 10 years now in various gas powered vehicles and have seen smoother running and better mileage. I currently have a 1994 Mercury Grand Marquis that has the 5W-30 in the engine and the synthetic ATF in the tranny. I had a previous GM that i had gotten at 102k and it went another 110k before the oil pump died and the engine siezed. I guess Ford oil pumps are somewhat prone to failure. That previous Grand Marquis also had Amsoil ATF in the tranny and Series 2000 0W-30 in the engine. It sat outside all the time in WI winters and fired right up on the coldest of nights.

Basically what I'm saying is that even though the Amsoil might not be on the official approved list, I think that they make an excellent product and should still be considered for any TDI application including the PDs. Based on what I've seen and used in the past, there are much worse choices out there to use.

Is 10k not enough -- yes stay at 10k - I think you made a good choice in oils do some UOA's and that will eventaully tell us.

PS
I will be drawing a 1k sample next week for AFL.

Andy - It may be that the Elf Full-Tech hits the sweet spot for non-PD TDIs. It's a mid-SAPS oil and not "restricted" by the newer 505.01, LL04, and 229.51 specs. It is a relatively thick, fully synthetic 0w30. It may even be similar to the HDD 5w30. Were it to be tested, I wonder if it would pass any of the API specs (CH-4, CI-4, etc).

Ray

snappy1 said:

is amsoil european car formila 5w40 ok for my 2004 jetta 1.9tdi type bew ? it is recommended for vw 505.01.

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Snappy, to answer your question, and noting that this thread has not yet been locked... the Amsoil AFL 5w40 is acceptable. It is not Amsoil's best motor oil, but it is the one they make for the PD engine. Amsoil's best oils are not recommended for the PD.

It also meets VW502.00, indicating that it is a 2nd-generation 505.01 oil. (The 1st-generation 505.01 oils met 505.00 but not 502.00.)

Many TDI owners have used AFL with good results, though I have not -- nor any other Amsoil products except for their used-oil test kits.

burpod said:

really? that's the first i've heard of it. of all the countless amsoil/afl/pd/505.01 oil threads, i never recall you mentioning this little tidbit....

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The example jombl pulled was from this thread dated Jan 16, 2006. The reference to the VW dealership in NY state came from Waterfest in 2005. This was an example of a dealership selling AMSOIL, and using it to service both gas and diesel cars. Please note that Waterfest is held in July. The meeting took place in July of 2005. AMSOIL didn't have a product for PDs then - therefore, this dealership was not using the oil in PDs. I'm not affiliated with this shop in any way.

There are two VW dealerships here in San Antonio. One has a retail account with AMSOIL, the other does not. Both dealerships stock Castrol. This is another example of a dealership that has an account and installs AMSOIL in TDIs. The smaller shop installs AMSOIL when brought to the service department (two of my preferred customers and one of my dealers own PDs and are serviced by Rod East). One of my dealers has had warranty service performed, no questions asked, by the same dealership that installed the AMSOIL AFL. The dealership selling AMSOIL products is not my account. I've talked about both of the local dealers in other threads - this is not the first on the forum.

There are a number of independent shops and quick lubes in the San Antonio area that stock AMSOIL. Three independent shops service Euro cars exclusively. One is a BMW specialist. The only oil they stock is AFL. The only ATF they stock is AMSOIL ATF. The two remaining shops with which I'm very familiar service VW, Audi, and Euro Exotics. One has removed all other products and only stocks AMSOIL 5W-40 AFL. They service TDIs in addition to lesser cars...like Porsche and Ferrari. I work with two quck lubes that service TDIs as part of their client mix. One carries AFL and Qstate Diesel Plus as their 505.01 options. The other only carries AFL.

There are many posts by others in this forum that talk about their local VW dealer installing AMSOIL in their cars, and performing warranty work as necessary.

I hope that helps you see that dealerships do in fact install, and some even stock, AMSOIL products. I hope this also helps you see that there are independent shops that use these products exclusively in Euro cars - including PD TDIs.

Based on this, with conversations with local dealerships, regional VW service managers, and with tech experts at VWoA, I'm certain that Snappy1 will have a smooth warranty experience should (s)he choose AFL for his/her 2004 TDI.

Andy

DEO 5W-40 and AFL 5W-40 are both OEM drain interval products. OCIs can be extended with oil analysis, but neither will run as long as the company's long interval products. Each of these oils thins a bit in initial service, apparently as required by the applications they're designed for.

The HDD 5W-30 and AME 15W-40 are designed as long OCI oils - up to 1 year or 25,000 miles in light duty turbodiesel service (normal) and up to 1 year or 15,000 miles of severe service. Each will run longer with oil analysis. Each is designed to be shear stable. Viscosity will increase as the oils age.

Absolutely - consider AFL and DEO to be 1 year/10,000 mile TDI oils unless your oil analysis shows you can extend.

Andy

IMO - unless you use aboslute ULSD only - and your drving conditions are optimum, it just is not worth it to extend for a few k's. Some are very successful with extended but I say over the life of the engine, the math is against you. Stay at 10k.

Check the Recommendations Now!

AndyH said:

Kier's right. DEO is still recommended for 1997, but not newer model years. That doesn't make sense. I sent a discrepancy report and will pass-on the results.

Andy

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I continued to talk with Corporate about AFL and DEO in our TDIs. I recommended that DEO be the primary 5W-40 recommendation up thru the 2003 model year, with AFL being the only recommendation for the 2004 and newer engines. I included copies of VW's TSBs (synth 5W-40 in '99 and 505.01 for '04s) and my UOA results from AFL and DEO in my '97 Passat.

I heard from Corporate on Apr 9th:
"Andy,
Your suggestion makes sense to me. I will pass this on to upper
management for consideration.
Thanks again,"

It looks as if the suggestion was adopted -- I did a spot check of the AMSOIL On-Line recommendations and see DEO thru 2003.

Thanks for pointing this out, Kier!

Andy

Yeah, this thread is a year old and we have all the crap from the same people all over again.

I've made this a sticky. All Amsoil debates are to be in THIS thread.

BKmetz said:

And this sums up best so far why I forced a moratorium on posting about Amsoil. Who would waste time with TDIClub after reading some of the Amsoil threads? We are our own worst enemies. We can do much better.

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Me, I don't care about Amsoil one way or the other.

Warranty issues are tough enough. By using a VW approved oil, I can ensure that a major factor is not brought into the process.

Question: What Oil have you been using.?
Answer: Castrol 505.01, you can look at your records, you will see I have bought the oil and filters at intervals that indicate it was changed at the recommended intervals (and I have the exact day and time logged).

I feel the same way about people who chip their cars. Go ahead and do it, I won’t and I won't recommend it to anyone.

The downside is that wrong oil use (dealers included!) as well as chipping has caused VW to be extremely suspicious on warranty issues.

It doesn't mean the chip or the oil caused the problem, it does make it a reasonable issue on which VW would question or deny warranty.

2003 Jettta TDI using AmsOil Series 3000 5w-30

I have been using AmsOil Series 3000 5w-30 in this engine since it had 5,000 miles on the odometer. When you read this, keep in mind that iron without either lead or tin means no wear.
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MYLittleTDI said:

Here"s to naysayers that you absolutely, positively, must, without a doubt, need to use a VW 505.01 approved engine oil in your TDI engine.

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I don't mean to be a spoilsport, but according to the FAQ and the sticky thread on "What oil should I use?", your 2003 TDI in the US is not likely to require VW505.01.

You may wish to look up on the subject, or perhaps even just lift up your hood and see which engine was shipped to you.

If your car requires VW505.01 it will have a bright yellow warning sticker saying so on the engine bay. Does yours?

That is a good UOA
That is the premier Amsoil - wow look at the barium. I hope you did not change it. Additive regeneration may be apparent here, and at 10k we could see this. Say 26 PPM Fe at 10k would show the oil is a top quality oil. Good Luck and I hope you will do a 10k UOA. The average is 37 at 8.4k

In hindsight, I probably should have stressed more that this car is driven all year long with this oil. I know that 505.01 is not required for my engine and I also know that 5w-40 oil is NOT required for my engine. I live in Wichita Falls, TX where the famous "Hotter Then Hell" bicycle race is held every Aug. This year is the 25th anniversary. I have read many post about the impending death to a TDI using 5w-30 oil especially in the heat. Still, those numers are great.