So my timing belt broke....

~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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2005 Jetta Sedan
Last weekend I was on a trip to the Midwest and partway into ohio my car stopped cold in traffic. Cranked like it wasn't getting fuel and really fast etc etc.. I called my favorite TDI mechanic and hes like its either your timing belt or turbo.. Im thinking oh boy! Anyway a long story short I found a shop with a 5 star rating that claims TDI knowledge and had it towed in.

Sure enough, a section of teeth were torn off the belt. He got me a quote for a timing job, which looking back I should have known it would be higher but anyway after some discussion I decided im better off having him do the job rather than come to pick the car up and tow it to my mechanic, 10 hours one way from where I broke down, especially given the fact he gives a 100k mile warranty on the belt job. Well when he got it opened up the quote doubled. Smashed lifters and all 8 valves damaged. He went ahead and replaced them, had the head gone over by a machine shop, and put everything back together. The plan was that I would get the car on my way home from my trip 5 days later but needless to say that didn't happen...

This week I went out to pick it up and pay my bill.. I noticed it didn't start quite as energetically as it did before kinda like there was a tiny bit of air in the lines but I figured its from setting for a bit. I restarted it several times and it seemed more like normal. I then drove the whole way home which is all interstate driving and it didn't give any trouble. Ran great, good power. This morning I went to start the car after it being outside overnight and it barely started... 3 glow cycles then I cranked it, and it started but sounded like its running on only 2 or 3 cylinders. it sputtered around and carried on like that for several minutes (with plenty of blue smoke) and finally straightened out and ran normal till the next cold start. Always starts fine when the engine Is hot. I noticed it doesn't smoke black as much as it did on acceleration anymore, almost none and I have a stage 4 Malone. Im thinking its connected anyone have any good suggestions? If I was closer id run over to the shop and get him to fix it up but I wont be able to do that for a few days yet at least.
 

alex_tdi

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Try checking the ignition timing with VCDS. I had problems starting and idling when the timing was too retarded. It's an easy adjustment, do a search and you'll find info on it.
 

burn_your_money

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Did he check piston protrusion?



Not that it matters now, but how old was your old belt? What brand was it?
 

TLH_TDI

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Florida
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2002 Jetta Wagon
Recently bought a donor car that been totaled two years before, owner had just left the shop driving home after repair from timing belt break, after tear down found small amount of damage from cam follower, don’t know if it was the original head, found at least two bent connecting rods that I could see without even measuring. The moral of the story is that you don’t know unless you disassemble and check, at least till later on.



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~TDIguy~

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The old belt was 65,000 miles. The mechanic said the tensioner was out of adjustment by about 1/2" and because of that the belt was too loose and the engine was "keeping itself in time". I dont know if that makes any sense or not.. I told him i think some aspect of the timing is off and he insists its injectors....?? Doesnt make any sense cause it wasnt an issue before.
 

~TDIguy~

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I forget what brand the belt was but i have all the old parts so i can check that.

Alex is there any way to mess anything up working with the ignition timing? The shop did not use vcds at all he said, but my concern is just that i dont mess anything up that puts any work back on me. already spent plenty much money.... :(
 

WildChild80

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I forget what brand the belt was but i have all the old parts so i can check that.

Alex is there any way to mess anything up working with the ignition timing? The shop did not use vcds at all he said, but my concern is just that i dont mess anything up that puts any work back on me. already spent plenty much money.... :(
Correct me if I'm wrong but you can't properly do a timing belt job without some way to look at timing and fuel...I'd have your TDI guy go over the work that was done...

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Tdijarhead

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I’d definitely have your regular tdi mechanic take a look at the work that was done. Last year when my belt broke I burned up my starter. So regarding the hard starts it might just be a now weary starter. Or your timing/torsion might need a tweak, which cannot be done without vcds.
 

Genesis

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I forget what brand the belt was but i have all the old parts so i can check that.

Alex is there any way to mess anything up working with the ignition timing? The shop did not use vcds at all he said, but my concern is just that i dont mess anything up that puts any work back on me. already spent plenty much money.... :(
It is not possible to PROPERLY do a timing belt on a TDI without VCDS; you cannot verify the injection timing when you're done.

There is also only one proper way to install and tension the belt (and about 100 wrong ways) and if done wrong it WILL fail early. Without the proper tools it's impossible to set the tension correctly too.

I'd be verifying EVERYTHING right about.... now.
 

jettawreck

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IF the entire job was done correctly (which I have my doubts) and the head work was expertly done (again, doubts) the injection timing must be checked w/VCDS. Sometimes when you are meticulous (or just lucky) it lands right where it should, or at least "in spec". But w/o checking you don't really know and aren't always lucky.
If everything mechanical is ok, (barring bent rods/low compression) then at the minimum it sounds as if the timing is not advanced enough, which makes for poor cold starts. It usually runs ok after that since the ECU can/will adjust some after it's up and running.
Apparently the previous belt service wasn't properly done properly (tensioner incorrectly set up) and/or the parts (tensioner specifically) were not quality.
I would certainly have the visible work inspected.
 

~TDIguy~

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I am gonna talk to the guy again today. I wanted to take it to my regular tdi guy for the belt job but ya know how it is, hard to make those calls when your 10 hrs one way away from him.... :( I will see if i can get the guy at the shop to pay for the time at the "real" mechanic to get things going for real... Am I safe to drive it down to my other shop? its like 3 hours. I already drove it home from ohio so nothing else should happen do you think?

The last belt was installed incorrectly of that i am sure. PO told me who it is and is going to talk to him about it at least, is it asking too much for a refund? :) You dont want to know what this whole ordeal cost me...:(
 

~TDIguy~

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The job looks good from what i can see, he sent me all the old parts back and took a pic of the head when he had it apart... Cleaned the engine bay up real good too which was nice. But i dont feel real good about letting him screw with it again just because its not right after spending all that money. Gotta love these guys that dont know what there doing......
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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New Beetle 2003 manual
Sounds like some stars need to be removed from that shops rating. Please name them.

After a quick perusal of this thread I see no mention of valve damage. These motors are interference design, when the belt goes, valves will contact pistons.
I may have missed it, but how much did they charge?
 

WildChild80

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Sounds like some stars need to be removed from that shops rating. Please name them.

After a quick perusal of this thread I see no mention of valve damage. These motors are interference design, when the belt goes, valves will contact pistons.
I may have missed it, but how much did they charge?
He said all 8 valves were damaged a d replaced...the price doubled at that point. 2 realities...I'm not gonna mess with the head or franko6 is gonna mess with the head...

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~TDIguy~

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All the valves were replaced, and all the lifters. My total bill was $3,283.12....... :(:( But i am fine with that if everything works, he helped me when im out of town and didnt have many options...

If i dont get good results from him in getting this resolved he wont get a very pretty review on google im afraid..:)
 

JB05

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How did the mechanic set the static timing? I would look for paint marks under the TB cover.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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When you guys are saying "injection timing" do you actually mean the cam timing? This would be group 4, Torsion Value.

It is a measure of the relationship between the crank and cam and is adjusted by rotating the cam hub while the three bolts that hold the cam sprocket to the hub are loose.

Keep in mind this is a pumpe duse engine he's talking about. The actual injection timing is controlled by the engine computer. Torsion value is more about the valves opening at the right time, and if it's wrong, the engine will run poorly, be difficult to start, etc.

It's very easy to adjust, but you do need VCDS. There's enough range of adjustment for the engine to go from not running at all, running poorly, to running perfectly. Your poor running is likely related to this adjustment not being done.

I would also be concerned whether this mechanic set the injector rocker lash correctly.

Some great reading here:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=336279

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=306911&highlight=injector
 

WildChild80

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I totally missed that part about being a PD...

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KLXD

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Lompoc, CA
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He said he doesn't use VCDS. Are there not other legitimate ways to view timing? Doesn't Snap-On have its own system for example?

The question isn't did he use VCDS it's what did he use.
 

~TDIguy~

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I am waiting on a text back as to what he used. I think i remember seeing one of those several thousand dollar snapon diag tools laying on his bench that might be what he used, if anything.
 

Tdijarhead

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All the valves were replaced, and all the lifters. My total bill was $3,283.12....... :(:( But i am fine with that if everything works, he helped me when im out of town and didnt have many options...

If i dont get good results from him in getting this resolved he wont get a very pretty review on google im afraid..:)



I see little reason at this point to think that the folks that helped you out, in OH did a bad job. Like you said they helped you out and it sounds like they went out of their way somewhat to do that.


If they didn't have a vcds then they would not have been able to fine tune the timing/torsion. Which is a relatively easy job to do.
 

Genesis

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There is no way on a PD (or ALH for that matter) to PROPERLY verify injection timing without VCDS. If done VERY carefully an ALH will frequently be bang-on without adjustment, but if you don't check you don't know and the symptoms you have say that, assuming mechanically everything is ok and was done correctly, that the timing is off.
 

~TDIguy~

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Romulus Ny
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So what your saying is i might as well just take it to my TDI mechanic and let him get it fixed up. This ohio guy isnt replying to my texts i think he has a bad feeling.

Am i safe to run the car several hours for the timing adjustment with vcds?
 

wonneber

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There's a graph in the Bentley you can use set the pump timing from 2 values from basic engine block 000. (iIrc)
You need the coolant an fuel temp.
Should tell you if your in range or not.
Engine has to be up to operating temp.
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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VCDS is the best and most comprehensive tool for our cars, but any OBDII device that can read the correct data will work to fine tune the timing.
My kindergarten attention span didn't catch the bit about the valves, it's possible he do what was needed. What was the name of the shop?
 

~TDIguy~

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Fast Lanes Repair, Macedonia Ohio. I almost had to wonder but i didnt mention the attention span part Bob :)
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Again, it's a Pumpe Duse engine. There's no pump timing to adjust.

When and how much fuel is injected is completely up to the engine computer. Only a tuner like Malone or Kerma can change the injection timing by reprogramming the ECU.

That's not at all what is going on here. There is no injection pump like on an ALH engine.

It's a BEW engine.
 

jettawreck

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Northern Minnesota-55744
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Yep, I missed the PD part also. My bad, I always seem to figure everyone has an ALH like mine.
As Mike has pointed out, there is no injection timing to set, but cam timing/torsion value is very important and can cause the symptom(s) such as you are having. As can other things like low compression, but hopefully won't have to go there.
 
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