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TDI Fuel Economy Discussions about increasing the fuel economy of your TDI engine. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old May 3rd, 2008, 11:52   #1
jetdiknight
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Default WHY IS FUEL so cheap in the US ?

OK....this title was not my own, but from the top news on Yahoo today.

I know we all hurt from this fuel crisis. But maybe we should look at how we had become so complacent with lower then normal fuel prices for the last decades...while the rest of the world paid much much more.

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...S.-Is-So-Cheap


Out of 155 countries surveyed, US is ranked only number 111 in terms of highest fuel cost, at a relatively cheap $3.45 to $4.00. Of course, there are still 44 countries that have even lower fuel costs, but those countries either are oil producing countries or heavily subsidize the fuel costs as a social welfare tactic.


Maybe we should vote for the person who can lower fuel costs for us all ?

Either that, or move to Venezuela.
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Old May 3rd, 2008, 12:53   #2
BioFuelsDude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetdiknight
OK....this title was not my own, but from the top news on Yahoo today.

I know we all hurt from this fuel crisis. But maybe we should look at how we had become so complacent with lower then normal fuel prices for the last decades...while the rest of the world paid much much more.

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...S.-Is-So-Cheap


Out of 155 countries surveyed, US is ranked only number 111 in terms of highest fuel cost, at a relatively cheap $3.45 to $4.00. Of course, there are still 44 countries that have even lower fuel costs, but those countries either are oil producing countries or heavily subsidize the fuel costs as a social welfare tactic.


Maybe we should vote for the person who can lower fuel costs for us all ?

Either that, or move to Venezuela.
RIGHT?!? Chavez has lowered oil prices so low that the emerging middle class there is big into Harley Davidson motorcycles. Fuel is so cheap there now that the poor are even getting into cars. In Iran, fuel is roughly thirteen cents a gallon! Riots happened last summer in Tehran due to fuel jumping from eight cents to thirteen cents a gallon. Iran, the second biggest OPEC producers, cannot even refine their own product. They have to send out the oil to get back gasoline and diesel fuel. Now isn’t that crazy how this all works?! Furthermore you should note that a cartoon of Marlboros runs roughly a hundred dollars these days in Tehran.

This is the biggest reason, I feel, why fuel prices will go up in the coming years. If 100 million Chinese start to drive to and from where ever it is they drive to, fuel will go through the roof faster than we can predict. Furthermore, most the emerging poor countries use diesel and not gasoline as most people on this board know. Since we refine and export a lot of diesel fuel, I do not feel we will be a diesel-fueled nation anytime soon.

However, and sadly to some, I see us more as an electric nation. Plug in hybrids will workout will for most people in this country, the question is does the aging grid have the juice to power our cars as well as homes, businesses, etc. Where will the batteries go when the time comes to junk them? Etc. Etc. Etc. New technology, no issues, same problem... after all energy independence is hard to get overnight.

To bad most Americans want McDonalds like service. Not the crappy food but the fact that when we place an order (i.e. "AHH congress man, congress women, senator, or Mr. President can we get some cheaper fuel prices here please.") we expect it to be done in a rather short period of time. Frankly high prices have been something we are not use to but have been predicting for sometime now. The question on everyone else’s mind was when would it happen? Now that it is happening, anyone that didn’t think this could happen to us is naive. The greatest nation in the world needs to retool and fight the good fight.

Global warming, climate change, or whatever crap you want to call it may or may not be a real issue for some but energy independence is a real issue facing all of us today. O and guess what, drilling in places like ANWR may give us some oil; however, it sure as **** will not be making a dent into what we import. More domestic oil is like methadone for the heroin addict. Sure it decreases the person’s dependence on the initial drug itself but they still are very much addicted to the feeling and need it constantly in order to function, much like our economy. Perhaps this is a weak analogy but I’m sure you get the point.

The feeling of cheap fuel, cheap food, and cheap living are indeed escaping the rest of my fellow Americans. My kids will never know what it feels like to put twenty bucks into a fuel tank and go back inside to get change. The days of cheap oil are long over. We can use dirty energy consuming techniques like coal gasification or tar sands in Canada while we find a real source but no that’s not the complete answer. The same goes for food for fuel. Yea, isn’t really cute to know that farmers were the answer to our fuel problem all along, NOT. PSSH, I’m all for getting farmers more well desevered money for a job that does not pay in the millions without putting tens of millions into the operation. Big business love government welfare; nevertheless, I hate paying taxes so these profit making companies can get some more money to please their shareholders.

Local economies, in the not so distant future, will be the key to solving our nations energy problems. When business start doing business with each other two towns away from each other rather then 12,000 miles away in China, then and only then, can we maybe see an increase and decrease in certain aspects of American life. Perhaps there will be an increase in localized jobs, making it easier for an American to get a good paying living wage job. Furthermore, maybe products will decrease in price due to shorter distances of travel between producer and consumer. With all that said and done, maybe then and hopefully so, fuel prices can be somewhat more stabilized.

Sorry for the rant. So what good it will do about our fuel for our future? Nothing what so ever! Hey at least I got to vent….


Erik

Last edited by BioFuelsDude; May 4th, 2008 at 02:06.
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Old May 3rd, 2008, 15:34   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioFuelsDude
Sorry for the rant. So what good it will do about our fuel for our future? Nothing what so ever! Hey at least I got to ventÖ.
Personally I believe they are connected and as we move away from cheap transportation, working and living close, reducing shipping of materials and finished goods by manufacturing closer to the source and markets, ... We you see where I am going.
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Old May 3rd, 2008, 21:35   #4
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Out of 155 countries surveyed, US is ranked only number 111 in terms of highest fuel cost, at a relatively cheap $3.45 to $4.00. Of course, there are still 44 countries that have even lower fuel costs, but those countries either are oil producing countries or heavily subsidize the fuel costs as a social welfare tactic.


Maybe we should vote for the person who can lower fuel costs for us all ?
the reason it seems like our gas is so cheap is becasue a lot of those countries that have much hogher gas prices, ie the UK, is because they had about a 3 or 4 dollar a gallon tax on their gas. our gas taxes here are relativly low.

I dont really think theres much the government can really do to lower fuel prices, not in the near term anyway. they are touting a "gas tax holiday" but I dont know what thats supposed to do other than make me wait in line a long time for gas, it may drop the price MAYBE 50 cents a gallon, which may seem like a lot, but figure in the probable 2 hour or most likely more, wait youll have to get it thats not worth it to me. what the government should do is get to drilling in places we should be drilling, places here , like ANWAR, the gulf where ever. we need coal to oil technology, we need a better way to make ethanol, because there are better things to make it with than corn, synthetic fuels. we have a company here in florida that can make diesel from algae. there are lots of ways to make gas and diesel WITHOUT relying on the middle east and its high time somebody starts making it happen.
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Old May 3rd, 2008, 22:39   #5
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Originally Posted by jetdiknight
OK Either that, or move to Venezuela.
If you move to Venezuela Mr. Chavez will kick you out of there, no chance of living there, he defenitly dislikes Americans

Last edited by Tisey06; May 3rd, 2008 at 22:43.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 01:47   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loki993
the reason it seems like our gas is so cheap is becasue a lot of those countries that have much hogher gas prices, ie the UK, is because they had about a 3 or 4 dollar a gallon tax on their gas. our gas taxes here are relativly low.

I dont really think theres much the government can really do to lower fuel prices, not in the near term anyway. they are touting a "gas tax holiday" but I dont know what thats supposed to do other than make me wait in line a long time for gas, it may drop the price MAYBE 50 cents a gallon, which may seem like a lot, but figure in the probable 2 hour or most likely more, wait youll have to get it thats not worth it to me. what the government should do is get to drilling in places we should be drilling, places here , like ANWAR, the gulf where ever. we need coal to oil technology, we need a better way to make ethanol, because there are better things to make it with than corn, synthetic fuels. we have a company here in florida that can make diesel from algae. there are lots of ways to make gas and diesel WITHOUT relying on the middle east and its high time somebody starts making it happen.
I strongly disagree with drilling more without conserving more through innovation. 20th century lessons should have been learned in the 20th century. A weak dollar mixed with tighter oil supplies due to developing nations throughout the world dipping their hands in the cookie jar. This lends us to a world where America's voice gets a little more quiter as a super power. We should save our oil supplies and find new developing ways to squeeze more fuel out of whatever. Furthermore, we should cut back on all the other things made of petrol like make up, shampoo, anything plastic, or clothing materials. Replace these with natural materials and fibers and barrels of oil can be saved this way in time. See innovate rather then regulate... thats the key.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 02:03   #7
BioFuelsDude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tisey06
If you move to Venezuela Mr. Chavez will kick you out of there, no chance of living there, he defenitly dislikes Americans
Thats not entirely true. Not saying I would shake hands with the guy anytime soon; however, I have certainly seen him state numerous times that he dislikes the American government and not the people. In fact he even recommended an American authors book Noam Chomsky Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the post 9/11 World at the UN Summit in 2006. Again not defending the guy just stating what the media forgets to mention. They forget a lot of things and spin a lot of current issues (in case anyone has noticed... ).
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Old May 4th, 2008, 06:23   #8
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From an old guy who has lived in many places of the world. My observation is we (US) consumers are unique and have made a success of a free economy without government intervention or manipulation. Most European countries have expensive social programs. These costly programs result in high TAX for everything you purchase and require for daily living. This includes luxuries like Driving a car and freedoms (like driving a car to see the country) The was a real good artical a couple of years ago in a Car magazine that gave an interview with John Cary who was running for president. Wanted to increase the Federal Tax on a Gallon of Gas by one dollar. Purpose: to increase Mass transit options in the US, Reduce our demand for foriegn Oil, And REDUCE FREVOLOUS AND WASTFUL DRIVING BY AMERICANS. (I can imagine that 55 MPH will comeback as well). Just like in Germany today. This would nearly illiminate many business that make products for our cars and tourest locations we enjoy to see. The we will enjoy the 20 plus % unemployment rate that Germany struggles with today.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 06:50   #9
Dimitri16V
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tisey06
If you move to Venezuela Mr. Chavez will kick you out of there, no chance of living there, he defenitly dislikes Americans
What an idiotic comment.
I am sure some old couple could use your $ 500 donation to fill their oil tank this winter.
Mr Chavez still wants his F-16 parts that WE ARE REQUIRED TO SUPPLY when the planes were bought.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 07:38   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioFuelsDude
I strongly disagree with drilling more without conserving more through innovation. 20th century lessons should have been learned in the 20th century. A weak dollar mixed with tighter oil supplies due to developing nations throughout the world dipping their hands in the cookie jar. This lends us to a world where America's voice gets a little more quiter as a super power. We should save our oil supplies and find new developing ways to squeeze more fuel out of whatever. Furthermore, we should cut back on all the other things made of petrol like make up, shampoo, anything plastic, or clothing materials. Replace these with natural materials and fibers and barrels of oil can be saved this way in time. See innovate rather then regulate... thats the key.
there are lots of things we as individuals and our government can do.
Make recycling mandatory and easy for people to handle.
Tax credits for fuel efficient vehicles, hybrids , diesel whatever.
Increase registration fees for heavier and fuel thirsty vehicles, if you can afford the gas, you an afford the privilege to own a gas guzler.
More tax credits for solar panel, solar hot water systems
Take the tax credits rom the Big Oil and spend them on research for alternative fuels, actually make that a national project, Big Oil won't do it, they have no incentive to.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 08:28   #11
jetdiknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioFuelsDude
This is the biggest reason, I feel, why fuel prices will go up in the coming years. If 100 million Chinese start to drive to and from where ever it is they drive to, fuel will go through the roof faster than we can predict. Furthermore, most the emerging poor countries use diesel and not gasoline as most people on this board know. Since we refine and export a lot of diesel fuel, I do not feel we will be a diesel-fueled nation anytime soon.
I agree.


Quote:
However, and sadly to some, I see us more as an electric nation. Plug in hybrids will workout will for most people in this country, the question is does the aging grid have the juice to power our cars as well as homes, businesses, etc. Where will the batteries go when the time comes to junk them? Etc. Etc. Etc. New technology, no issues, same problem... after all energy independence is hard to get overnight.

To bad most Americans want McDonalds like service. Not the crappy food but the fact that when we place an order (i.e. "AHH congress man, congress women, senator, or Mr. President can we get some cheaper fuel prices here please.") we expect it to be done in a rather short period of time. Frankly high prices have been something we are not use to but have been predicting for sometime now. The question on everyone elseís mind was when would it happen? Now that it is happening, anyone that didnít think this could happen to us is naive. The greatest nation in the world needs to retool and fight the good fight.

Global warming, climate change, or whatever crap you want to call it may or may not be a real issue for some but energy independence is a real issue facing all of us today. O and guess what, drilling in places like ANWR may give us some oil; however, it sure as **** will not be making a dent into what we import. More domestic oil is like methadone for the heroin addict. Sure it decreases the personís dependence on the initial drug itself but they still are very much addicted to the feeling and need it constantly in order to function, much like our economy. Perhaps this is a weak analogy but Iím sure you get the point.

The feeling of cheap fuel, cheap food, and cheap living are indeed escaping the rest of my fellow Americans. My kids will never know what it feels like to put twenty bucks into a fuel tank and go back inside to get change. The days of cheap oil are long over. We can use dirty energy consuming techniques like coal gasification or tar sands in Canada while we find a real source but no thatís not the complete answer. The same goes for food for fuel. Yea, isnít really cute to know that farmers were the answer to our fuel problem all along, NOT. PSSH, Iím all for getting farmers more well desevered money for a job that does not pay in the millions without putting tens of millions into the operation. Big business love government welfare; nevertheless, I hate paying taxes so these profit making companies can get some more money to please their shareholders.

Local economies, in the not so distant future, will be the key to solving our nations energy problems. When business start doing business with each other two towns away from each other rather then 12,000 miles away in China, then and only then, can we maybe see an increase and decrease in certain aspects of American life. Perhaps there will be an increase in localized jobs, making it easier for an American to get a good paying living wage job. Furthermore, maybe products will decrease in price due to shorter distances of travel between producer and consumer. With all that said and done, maybe then and hopefully so, fuel prices can be somewhat more stabilized.

Sorry for the rant. So what good it will do about our fuel for our future? Nothing what so ever! Hey at least I got to ventÖ.


Erik

surprisingly, or maybe not surprisingly....I agree 110% with what this post says.

1- the rest of the world should not get hooked onto decreasing commodity.

2- we should deal with fuel source issues now

3- deal with alternative energy

4- conservation

5- buy locally....and buy of course, American or made in america if possible.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 08:33   #12
jetdiknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loki993
the reason it seems like our gas is so cheap is becasue a lot of those countries that have much hogher gas prices, ie the UK, is because they had about a 3 or 4 dollar a gallon tax on their gas. our gas taxes here are relativly low.

I dont really think theres much the government can really do to lower fuel prices, not in the near term anyway. they are touting a "gas tax holiday" but I dont know what thats supposed to do other than make me wait in line a long time for gas, it may drop the price MAYBE 50 cents a gallon, which may seem like a lot, but figure in the probable 2 hour or most likely more, wait youll have to get it thats not worth it to me. what the government should do is get to drilling in places we should be drilling, places here , like ANWAR, the gulf where ever. we need coal to oil technology, we need a better way to make ethanol, because there are better things to make it with than corn, synthetic fuels. we have a company here in florida that can make diesel from algae. there are lots of ways to make gas and diesel WITHOUT relying on the middle east and its high time somebody starts making it happen.

I think you are on the right track...but I would personally advocate to save our domestic resources for later on. I think developing alternative fuels from non food stocks is a the way to go. Recycling and conservation...and encouraging people from all nations to control their population now.
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Last edited by jetdiknight; May 5th, 2008 at 21:40.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 08:37   #13
heno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitri16V
there are lots of things we as individuals and our government can do.
Make recycling mandatory and easy for people to handle.
Tax credits for fuel efficient vehicles, hybrids , diesel whatever.
Increase registration fees for heavier and fuel thirsty vehicles, if you can afford the gas, you an afford the privilege to own a gas guzler.
More tax credits for solar panel, solar hot water systems
Take the tax credits rom the Big Oil and spend them on research for alternative fuels, actually make that a national project, Big Oil won't do it, they have no incentive to.
The thing you're missing here is that "Big Oil" (let's just say Big Business..remember how quickly Bear Stearns was bailed out) and our government are in bed together. And I'm not sure who's on top. I'll take a stab at it though...Big Business.

So if that's right, and there's a 50% chance I'm right, then government will come up with all those incentives you mentioned just as soon as Big Business says they can. I imagine that time will come when Big Business is heavily invested in things like hybrid vehicles, solar hot water systems, alternative fuels (think ADM and ethanol), etc.. JMO
Mike
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Old May 4th, 2008, 08:39   #14
jetdiknight
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Originally Posted by Tisey06
If you move to Venezuela Mr. Chavez will kick you out of there, no chance of living there, he defenitly dislikes Americans

I think that he is a buffoon that wants a limelight as president, after being a gangster in the poor areas got him some notoriety.

I was being sarcastic about moving to Venezuela. Chavez may have some fans here.... but even his own people are starting to see him as the dictator that he really is.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 08:43   #15
jetdiknight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjetta
From an old guy who has lived in many places of the world. My observation is we (US) consumers are unique and have made a success of a free economy without government intervention or manipulation. Most European countries have expensive social programs. These costly programs result in high TAX for everything you purchase and require for daily living. This includes luxuries like Driving a car and freedoms (like driving a car to see the country) The was a real good artical a couple of years ago in a Car magazine that gave an interview with John Cary who was running for president. Wanted to increase the Federal Tax on a Gallon of Gas by one dollar. Purpose: to increase Mass transit options in the US, Reduce our demand for foriegn Oil, And REDUCE FREVOLOUS AND WASTFUL DRIVING BY AMERICANS. (I can imagine that 55 MPH will comeback as well). Just like in Germany today. This would nearly illiminate many business that make products for our cars and tourest locations we enjoy to see. The we will enjoy the 20 plus % unemployment rate that Germany struggles with today.

I agree about the issues you pointed out.

Can anyone else shed light on this...?

Do we tax more on the fuel, and use it to both fund research into alternative fuels, and to decrease fuel usage ?
Or will that cause the economy to go downhill even more...?
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