Pros/Cons - Passat Wagons, B5 TDI vs. 1.8t

sunvalleylaw

Veteran Member
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Nov 7, 2014
Location
Hailey, ID
TDI
'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
Seeing as I am shopping for a Passat TDI wagon, and seeing as in this thread noted the relative pricing of gas vs. diesel right now, http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4665555&postcount=63
I was wondering what the members here thought of the 2004/2005 Passat Wagon TDI vs. 1.8t version.

Here is what I come up with so far in my mind:

B5 TDI

Pros:
Better mileage (offset somewhat by higher fuel cost)
Torque at lower rpms.
engine longevity if well cared for

Cons:
higher initial price point
only comes with automatic that will need to be replaced
Camshaft issue
Balance shaft issue


1.8T
Pros:
Fun high reving driving
A lot more out there for purchase
Lower initial price point, by what looks to be about a couple grand at least.
Easier to find, And with a manual installed at the factory.

Cons:
mileage not nearly as good (currently offset by relative cost of gas vs. diesel)
Turbo small output motor will have to be rebuilt or replaced at some point.
Longevity of motor dependent on maintenance and if good, proper spec synthetic used at good intervals. (hard to determine unless you find a car with one owner).

I presume the running gear, fender and body, interior, and etc. issues to be equivalent between the two cars.

What do you guys think?
 
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imo000

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Cambridge
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2009 M-B ML320 Diesel & '05 Passat TDI Manual 5-Speed
The 1.8t engines can last a very long time. Probably as long as the car. My father had a 1.8t Jetta with an original engine that we sold last year at 450K kms.
 

Windex

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Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Agree with the above, also the 1.8t runs on premium fuel, so the spread between gas and D2 is not as wide. To me it would depend on the qualities vs price on the car in question, and the annual number of miles to be driven.
 

sunvalleylaw

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Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Location
Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
Agree with the above, also the 1.8t runs on premium fuel, so the spread between gas and D2 is not as wide. To me it would depend on the qualities vs price on the car in question, and the annual number of miles to be driven.
Good point on the premium. The spread here is about 60-65 cents between RUG and Diesel, and nearly equal price between premium and diesel. We also have non-ethanol gas available at reasonable cost. Non-ethanol. Mileage would probably be between 10 and 20k per year I would guess. mostly likely somewhere in the middle of those two numbers.

And though the other poster above mentioned a well cared for 1.8T can last a long time, I have not seen in other makes small turbo motors last as long as diesels are reputed to last, without some sort of major rebuilding. Maybe I am just not as familiar with the VW motors, but you just don't hear of many gas powered turbos lasting well into the 200k-300k range that I am aware of.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
1.8t engines can suffer from sludging if given infrequent or inadequate oil changes. I used to work on Saabs for years, same thing - most were turbo, and they would regularly hit very high mileages with customers who maintained them properly. And they could also die early deaths when neglected.

At 15k per year, a gas car would make more sense financially.

No different from VW . The key is to find a good example and keep up on the maintenance.
 
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sunvalleylaw

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Location
Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
Agree with the above, also the 1.8t runs on premium fuel, so the spread between gas and D2 is not as wide. To me it would depend on the qualities vs price on the car in question, and the annual number of miles to be driven.
Given this above statement, and that premium and diesel are nearly the same price here,

At 15k per year, a gas car would make more sense financially.
not sure how this part works out.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Acquisition cost. The TDI will cost more to buy, and will require the mods you mentioned - cam, bsm, and transmission. A nice example of a manual 1.8t will be cheaper to buy up front, and won't require any of those three repairs or their costs.
 

blujett2.0

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Niverville, MB
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2001 Chev Silverado 6.6L Duramax
I wouldn't trade my manual B5.5 TDI for anything BUT I'm jealous if you do go with a 1.8T they can be found with a manual AND 4motion. Rare but they are out there.
 

yatzee

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Location
Montreal, Qc
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see sig
We have a 2004 Passat 1.8t 4motion 5 speed manual. She loves it in the snow - it's a tank and unstoppable with winter tires. It stops very well, and handles with confidence. It has a real 4wd system which is very similar to an Audi Quattro system - not some haldex transfer-power-when-you-need-it stuff

BUT.. and it's a big BUT.. the fuel economy is terrible. We can see 26 mpg in the summer, but closer to 21 in the winter. She is predominantly on country roads - only 20% city i'd guess. The car also FEELS heavy and sluggish. If you kick it, it gets moving well enough, but given the terrible fuel economy, it's rare that it gets kicked. Yes, I know we can chip it and so forth, but we likely won't bother as it'll probably be replaced next summer by either a b5.5 tdi with a stick or an 09/10 Jetta tdi stick.

We do run it on super as it's designed. The extra cost isn't ideal, but we don't want to have cat issues (like last years winter car, a 2002 Jetta 1.8t...)

As for sludging, Windex is right on. The oil that came out during the 1st oil change was worryingly dark. I've been changing the oil every 5-8k (kms) religiously using T6 and the oil is now coming out fairly clean each time

 
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Dirtracr95

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Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Location
Des Plaines, IL
TDI
'13 Jetta Sedan DSG
1.8t is a great motor. They will last as long as you maintain them. Kinda lacking in power with 4 motion and quattro. Fwd applications feel better and will no doubt return better fuel mileage.
 

peiphil

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
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2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
Letting your turbo cool down after driving and using proper synthetic oil is the biggest issue with these motors
Wrong oil and improper habits makes coke from burnt oil in the turbo collect in the oil pump pick up screen plugging it.
These engines will run fine on regular fuel for city or slower driving but computer will cut horsepower back to prevent detonation on high power loads like passing on highway
If you are buying a used one do your self a favor and drop the oil pan and clean the oil pickup screen!
 

yatzee

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Location
Montreal, Qc
TDI
see sig
Letting your turbo cool down after driving and using proper synthetic oil is the biggest issue with these motors
Wrong oil and improper habits makes coke from burnt oil in the turbo collect in the oil pump pick up screen plugging it.
These engines will run fine on regular fuel for city or slower driving but computer will cut horsepower back to prevent detonation on high power loads like passing on highway
If you are buying a used one do your self a favor and drop the oil pan and clean the oil pickup screen!
I'm sorry, but i don't really agree with much of your post.

- Turbos blowing on these engines is generally not an issue on a non-modified car. If you drive it normally, your turbo will last as long as the engine

- I will agree with your statement regarding wrong oil - VW initially didn't spec synthetic oil which is what caused the major of the build up issues. Any car that has had regular oil changes with synthetic oil is unlikely to EVER run into issues

- Yes, the knock sensor will retard the timing a bit, but you're much more likely to end up with cat efficiency faults if you run regular. If anything, I'd run super in the city and regular on the open highway, but we choose to avoid any issues by always running super

- Dropping the oil pan on a 1.8t isn't an easy job like on a Jetta or Golf. You need to lower the subframe (ideally, remove it) to get access to get the pan off.

The 1.8t in general is an extremely strong engine - tougher than many TDI engines. I have friends who are over 300k with well maintained cars and have only had to replace coils and vacuum lines.
 

vanbcguy

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Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
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'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
The mileage on the 1.8T really is bad compared to the TDI. My wife gets about 450km to a tank on her tiptronic Jetta wagon. My TDI stick shift gets nearly double that.

It does depend on what type of driving you tend to do - the 1.8T has a huge split between city and highway mileage. It's highway mileage isn't too bad but city driving sucks back the fuel pretty quickly.
 

sunvalleylaw

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Location
Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
Re: driving, very little in first and second gear. Probably a couple blocks on either end of a 12 mile drive each way on surface streets. Probably 5 or 6 cycles up through 3rd gear one way on the drive one way, including stops on either end and presuming one stop in the middle that happens less than half the time. The remainder primarily at highway speed, with a couple miles in 3rd (or 4th if I am speeding very much). At least for the commute. The rest of the driving will be across the state of Idaho either on two lane mountain and plains highways, or on a very fast interstate if I am over near Boise. Probably several times a month with 100 to 180 mile drives (including both directions) and at least once a month with a 300+ round way trip. I probably will be over 15000 miles total in a year I would guess. Nice fun twisty roads, and roads that want a highway rig. My Alfa Berlina is really fun, but not quite long legged enough. (and not modern enough to be driving other than in summer). A GTV6 would be better or even an Alfetta GT if you could find one that was not rusted apart if you wanted an Alfa to drive in Idaho. They are longer legged in the gearing.

I think it will be nearly a push for me as far as left brain analysis. The TDI sounds fun for the torque-y performance. The gas mileage thing and sluggishness mentioned by @yatzee is interesting. And his statement,
Yes, I know we can chip it and so forth, but we likely won't bother as it'll probably be replaced next summer by either a b5.5 tdi with a stick or an 09/10 Jetta tdi stick.
is telling.

I am still leaning toward the TDIs. Plus, my overall mileage may be more than I think, as I am adding it up.
 
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sunvalleylaw

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Location
Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
Saw something on another thread about octane at elevation and wondered about it and how it fits with this gas turbo vs diesel question. Found this on wiki:

United States: in the US octane rating is displayed in AKI. In most areas, the standard grades are 87, 89-90 and 91-94 AKI.[37] In the Rocky Mountain (high elevation) states, 85 AKI (90 RON) is the minimum octane, and 91 AKI (95 RON) is the maximum octane available in fuel.[38] The reason for this is that in higher-elevation areas, a typical naturally aspirated engine draws in less air mass per cycle because of the reduced density of the atmosphere. This directly translates to less fuel and reduced absolute compression in the cylinder, therefore deterring knock. It is safe to fill a carbureted car that normally takes 87 AKI fuel at sea level with 85 AKI fuel in the mountains, but at sea level the fuel may cause damage to the engine. A disadvantage to this strategy is that most turbocharged vehicles are unable to produce full power, even when using the "premium" 91 AKI fuel. In some east coast states, up to 94 AKI (98 RON) is available.[39] As of January, 2011, over 40 states and a total of over 2500 stations offer ethanol-based E-85 fuel with 105 AKI.[40] Often, filling stations near US racing tracks will offer higher octane levels such as 100 AKI .

Now granted I have seen plenty of turbo gas motors driving up here just fine. But it certainly means one should be using premium up here, and you still might not be getting the best out of your motor.
 

peiphil

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Joined
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Location
Tignish PEI Canada
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2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
Gas turbo engines can poke around town on the cheapest stale gas you can find.
They are never under enough load to try and ping or detonate.
These engines under heavy load like passing on a highway will sense ping and retard timing and enrich fuel mixture.
With high test gas the engine can make more power because the computer wont derate these parameters.
I never said the turbo would fail I just said it would create nasty coke which is like black sand like coal which is famous for plugging oil pump pick up screens.
A turbo gas engine will work just the same in the mountains because the turbo will spin faster in the thin air and make the same boost as at sea level
 

truman

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Joined
May 18, 2000
Location
columbia,MO,usa
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'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
I might choose gas or diesel, in this situation, based on which is the best car for the money, records, and previous owner(s).
 

sunvalleylaw

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Location
Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
With high test gas the engine can make more power because the computer wont derate these parameters.
I never said the turbo would fail I just said it would create nasty coke which is like black sand like coal which is famous for plugging oil pump pick up screens.
A turbo gas engine will work just the same in the mountains because the turbo will spin faster in the thin air and make the same boost as at sea level
But up here, there really isn't any high test gas. Just the 91. Is that what you meant by high test? If so, sorry, don't mean to be dense. But even though it is available, that gas is nearly as expensive as diesel here.
 

imo000

Top Post Dawg
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Location
Cambridge
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2009 M-B ML320 Diesel & '05 Passat TDI Manual 5-Speed
91= high octane= high test. The ECM can only pull so much timing with low octane, after it is maxed out and the engine still pings, parts will start breaking.
 

sunvalleylaw

Veteran Member
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Location
Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
91= high octane= high test. The ECM can only pull so much timing with low octane, after it is maxed out and the engine still pings, parts will start breaking.
Ok. I was wondering whether "high test" equaled race gas, or the 94 that is available sometimes at lower elevation. 91 is max here. In any case, that makes the fuel cost considerations more equal. But that is only one consideration in the mix.
 

vanbcguy

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Vancouver, BC
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'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
I very much like our 1.8T, but I sure feel it every time we fill up.

There are some maintenance issues to be aware of with the 1.8T. We had to replace all the crankcase breather tubes for instance - requires pulling the intake manifold. They also have a timing chain tensioner that wears and needs replacing. All told we had about $1800 in catch up maintenance on our 1.8T and it only had 125,000 km on it when we bought it.

What I'm getting at is both engines need maintenance and have their peculiarities. Operating costs will be lower with the TDI. I don't see maintenance costs being very different. It is much more a personal preference plus expected miles driven equation.
 

peiphil

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Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Tignish PEI Canada
TDI
2005 passat GLS TDI and big old Dodge Cummins TDI
We call 91 high test but if we race we ad octane up to the 95 level
German engine Weber snowmobiles but work like the cars do
 

vwztips

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Aug 30, 2009
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Greenville, SC
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2005 Passat GLS Wagon TDI 5 spd manual w/BSM delete 2011 Tiguan TDI/DSG 2005 Audi A4 Avant 6MQ TDI 2011 BMW X5 35d
Have owned many passats over the years. Before the Passat TDI came out the 1.8t was my favorite engine in the VW family. However, with the frugality and instant torque of the BHW, I don't care to go back to the 1.8t. Especially since I have deleted the BSM and installed a 5 speed. Also, dependability is better IMO.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I have both. The diesel is the clear winner. It is more powerful in real world driving, it doesn't require the gearbox to downshift, despite it being geared much higher, and the fuel economy difference is substantial. The diesel doesn't care if the A/C is on, either.

My 1.8t is 4mo, so I know that doesn't help, but still I have driven every version of B5 and B5.5 Passat and Audi A4 sold in the USA and the BHW is the best of all of them.

Some day, if my AWM engine decides to die or "fall out", it'll get a BHW transplant.

The ONLY advantage I see with the 1.8t B5 is that it does warm up quicker in cold weather, and it is quieter when cold, and smoother in gear at idle.
 
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sunvalleylaw

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Hailey, ID
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'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
Thank you all for the input. Given my needs, and the cars I can find for sale, I am doing TDI.
 

deming

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2003
Location
Illinois
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(2) 2005 TDI Passat Wagons
Passat TDI

BE PATIENT.

A nice clean "rust free" Passat TDI Wagon will come along sooner or later.
Somebody will own one and they will eventually decide to throw in the towel and buy a new car, rather than making repairs, because they are not car enthusiasts.

You can decide what to replace and how to move forward once you own the correct chassis / project car.

My suggestion is that you find the right project ( 05 Passat TDI Wagon) and buy the car cost affordably. Once you own a solid chassis ( Rust Free) you can focus your time, energy and resources on the upgrades and repairs that will make the car solid, dependable and reliable. If you want it to be a manual shift you can convert it over to a manual trans.
You decide how to build your car and how to upgrade or repair.
I.e- Balancer shaft concern, camshaft, suspension components, transmission etc.

When you get done, you will have a nice car, built and setup exactly how you want it and you will not have tons of money wrapped up.

There are also enough dedicated TDI enthusiasts on this forum that can assist you in finding a car and building it correctly.
Simply put; you have come to the right place for advice and TDI camaraderie.

Have a great weekend !
 

sunvalleylaw

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Location
Hailey, ID
TDI
'05 Passat TDI GLS Wagon, 5 speed manual
BE PATIENT.

A nice clean "rust free" Passat TDI Wagon will come along sooner or later.
Somebody will own one and they will eventually decide to throw in the towel and buy a new car, rather than making repairs, because they are not car enthusiasts.

You can decide what to replace and how to move forward once you own the correct chassis / project car.

My suggestion is that you find the right project ( 05 Passat TDI Wagon) and buy the car cost affordably. Once you own a solid chassis ( Rust Free) you can focus your time, energy and resources on the upgrades and repairs that will make the car solid, dependable and reliable. If you want it to be a manual shift you can convert it over to a manual trans.
You decide how to build your car and how to upgrade or repair.
I.e- Balancer shaft concern, camshaft, suspension components, transmission etc.

When you get done, you will have a nice car, built and setup exactly how you want it and you will not have tons of money wrapped up.

There are also enough dedicated TDI enthusiasts on this forum that can assist you in finding a car and building it correctly.
Simply put; you have come to the right place for advice and TDI camaraderie.

Have a great weekend !
Thanks! I am taking my time to do this right.
 
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