B100 in Rod's 2009 Jetta

MethylEster · Nov 5, 2008

See the new sticky in the Diesel Emissions forum.

There is info on the new Vag Com DPF regen settings.

rodneyh1 · Nov 17, 2008

Mileage Update

Thought I'd put up another mileage update. I currently have about 6,100 miles and I'm using all ULSD for now. As mentioned previously, I'll run this thru 10K and switch back to B99.

09/02/08 657 miles 17.0 gal* 38.6 mpg ULSD
09/16/08 510 miles 14.8 gal* 34.5 mpg B99
09/22/08 442 miles 12.2 gal 36.2 mpg B99
09/29/08 510 miles 13.7 gal 37.2 mpg B99
10/04/08 470 miles 13.0 gal 36.2 mpg B99
10/11/08 465 miles 13.0 gal 35.8 mpg B99
10/19/08 488 miles 13.5 gal 36.1 mpg B99
10/23/08 505 miles 13.7 gal 36.9 mpg B99
10/31/08 484 miles 12.2 gal 39.7 mpg ULSD
11/05/08 545 miles 13.2 gal 41.3 mpg ULSD
11/13/08 506 miles 13.2 gal 38.3 mpg ULSD

*Had to add a couple ULSD gallons (accounted for in calc's) to keep from running out.

My mileage using B99 has been 36.1 mpg, which is based on 7 full tanks of fuel. My mileage using ULSD has been 39.4 mpg, which is based on 4 full tanks of fuel. The B99 has cost an 8.4% reduction in mileage.

An interesting note: All of the above mileages are calculated. On every fill-up using B99 (with the possible exception of the 1st one as I didn't pay attention then), the computer showed mileage 2.0 - 3.5 mpg higher than what I actually got. When I switched to ULSD, this issue immediately went away. All tanks since the switch have been within 0.4 mpg of the computer. Anyone out there know how this could be explained?

GoFaster · Nov 17, 2008

Probably because the B99 has a slightly different viscosity and density, the relationship of fuel flow through the injectors isn't exactly as the computer predicts. No big deal.

Harvieux · Nov 23, 2008

I don't know if this has been completely covered as of yet but, I thought I would mention that I spoke to one of the VWAG engineers on Thursday in Ensenada Mexico while I was assisting in performing the 2008 Baja 1000 pre-race inspection on VW's new V-12 TDI Toureg (actually Audi's engine) as a SCORE Internationl technical official. (I will do a thread in TDI Motorsports with pictures as time allows).

I asked this engineer what exactly triggers the DPF regen. in the new CR. He says there are four (4) factors. (1) pressure sensors in the DPF. (2) mileage traveled. (3) metered fuel flow. (4) temperature pre and post DPF. I think most of us were pretty right on in our assumptions here, eh?

I also asked about a seperate fuel injection system as opposed to the current post-injection process even though we/I knew it would be cost prohibitive. He says such a system may not be reliable for the over 120K miles or so due to possible exposure to elements along with the possibility of accumulating condensation in the fuel path to this DPF injector system due to the possible length of time between regens. Later!

rodneyh1 · Dec 9, 2008

Blackstone oil analysis report

Finally figured out how to post my oil analysis. This is at 4K running only B99. Polaris apparently has a better fuel dilution test, so I've sent them a sample as well. Will post that analysis when I get it back.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Blackstone_Oil_Analysis.pdf

tdimama · Dec 9, 2008

Are you running on petro diesel until 5k and getting an oil analysis again? What will it tell us? Does this mean that it's not as bad as we think to run on B99?

Thanks so much for all your work!

rodneyh1 · Dec 9, 2008

tdimama said:
Are you running on petro diesel until 5k and getting an oil analysis again? What will it tell us? Does this mean that it's not as bad as we think to run on B99?

Thanks so much for all your work!

I ran B99 until the OA at 4,000 miles. I'm currently at 7,300 miles. I'm running ULSD until my dealer oil change at 10K. I'll get another OA at that point. Then I'll switch back to B99 thru 15K (with oil change and OA), then back to ULSD thru 20K (again with oil change and OA). The 5K B99 interval will get shortened if oil dilution is occurring again.

My primary concern is B99 getting in the crankcase and diluting the oil. By comparison to the same vehicle using ULSD, I should be able to show if this is an issue or not. I believe that 2 times (approx. 5K miles each) with each fuel type should be sufficient.

Just my opinion at this point, but I highly doubt B99 is going to work with an unmodified 2009 Jetta.

Frames Fan · Dec 9, 2008

B5?

Rodney,

As a new '09 Jetta TDI owner, thanks for taking the plunge for the rest of us. Question for you based on your last post where you say that you won't be putting B99 in (which sounds like a smart strategy based on your results and the analysis here). Are you going to run 100% ULSD or will you consider B5 (or less) given that falls within VW's warranty limits?

jvance · Dec 9, 2008

rodneyh1 said:
Finally figured out how to post my oil analysis. This is at 4K running only B99. Polaris apparently has a better fuel dilution test, so I've sent them a sample as well. Will post that analysis when I get it back.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/Blackstone_Oil_Analysis.pdf

2.5% of 5.8 quarts is 4.6 ounces. Unless Blackstone's analysis is off by almost an order of magnitude, fuel dilution cannot possibly be the cause of your sump overflow.

79RabbitDSL · Dec 9, 2008

jvance said:
2.5% of 5.8 quarts is 4.6 ounces. Unless Blackstone's analysis is off by almost an order of magnitude, fuel dilution cannot possibly be the cause of your sump overflow.

Did he get 5.8 Quarts out when he drained the oil??? Capacity is 4 Litres or about 4.2 Quarts

jvance · Dec 9, 2008

79RabbitDSL said:
Did he get 5.8 Quarts out when he drained the oil??? Capacity is 4 Litres or about 4.2 Quarts

From the engine oil capacity listed on VW's website. I should look in my Owner's Manual and confirm. If what you say is true, then 2.5% of 4.2 quarts is about 3 ounces, and if you look upthread he pulled 24 ounces of excess oil from his engine. Maybe something weird is going on, but it can't be blamed on that 3 ounces of BD in the crankcase. There're still 20 ounces of oil to account for. I'm betting overfill at the factory.

rodneyh1 · Dec 9, 2008

Frames Fan said:
Rodney,

As a new '09 Jetta TDI owner, thanks for taking the plunge for the rest of us. Question for you based on your last post where you say that you won't be putting B99 in (which sounds like a smart strategy based on your results and the analysis here). Are you going to run 100% ULSD or will you consider B5 (or less) given that falls within VW's warranty limits?

When I reach 10K miles, I will be switching back to B99 until I get up to 15K miles. Then I'll switch to ULSD until 20K. At that point, if it really looks like B99 won't be working out, I'll go to a lower percentage. I'm not too concerned about warranty, so I'd probably try something in the B20 - B50 neighborhood.

Harvieux · Dec 10, 2008

Rod, I don't think you should go on assumptions regarding the percentage of bioD you feel safe with. You are doing the right thing by using Polaris Labs for your fuel dilution OA and I think it would be wise to go with their recommendations as to what bioD concentration and OCI they come up with based on these OA results.

I am concerned with the difference in CC (crankcase) evaporation rates of bioD as compared to D2. I think 3 or 4 rounds of your 5K OA's should give us a better handle without speculation. Later!

cbass94 · Dec 12, 2008

Subscribed! Thanks for all the hard work Rod, can't wait to see the next round of BD.

oldpoopie · Dec 12, 2008

Interesting. I'll be keeping track as well!

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 15, 2008

Chill and I were talking about this last night and wondered how much driving habits affect success rates with biodiesel. It appears that the '09s go through regen less often if driven hard enough to keep the CAT at 360 degrees or above (I'm not sure of that temp, but I think it's what Chill said). If the car is driven at highway speeds, on longer trips, or in a brisk fashion that achieves that temperature frequently, regen will happen less often and fuel economy may be better. At least that's what I understand.

Biodiesel blends have two characteristics that may reduce exhaust temperatures. First, the higher cetane will lower EGTs because more of the combustion event will take place in the cylinder before the exhaust valves start to open. Second, the moisture content of biodiesel may lower EGTs. These two items in combination may cause regen to happen more frequently, again, depending on how the car is driven.

I have a corralary thoery: a chipped and aggressively driven '09 may see regen less often and acheive better fuel economy than a gently driven stock car.

Perhaps I have to get a Sportwagen and test these theories.

MBoni · Dec 15, 2008

IndigoBlueWagon said:
I have a corralary thoery: a chipped and aggressively driven '09 may see regen less often and acheive better fuel economy than a gently driven stock car.

I like the way you think.

Unfortunately, at least around here, aggressive driving is constrained by the volume of traffic on the roads.

However, I wonder if the problem of regen EGTs has a much simpler solution: B20 thru B50?

If B100 is just on the limits of being out-of-range (such that driving patterns make the difference), then B50 could bring things back to acceptable ranges for a wide range of driving patterns.

Ted Hurst · Dec 15, 2008

When do these post combustion injections happen? Are they random or do they occur at specific blocks of time?

I'm thinking maybe a dual fuel system may be a solution if these post injection events could be identified.

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 15, 2008

My understanding is they occur based on a fairly complex set of parameters including how much "stuff" is in the particulate trap, coolant and exhaust temperatures, as well as an individual car's driving history. And IIRC it won't happen on a short trip--less than 15 minutes. So although there are a set of circumstances when the regen can occur, I don't know if you can predict when it will occur--lots of variables.

And I think you can go plenty fast enough in Atlanta to get things nice and warm.

rodneyh1 · Dec 15, 2008

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Chill and I were talking about this last night and wondered how much driving habits affect success rates with biodiesel. It appears that the '09s go through regen less often if driven hard enough to keep the CAT at 360 degrees or above (I'm not sure of that temp, but I think it's what Chill said). If the car is driven at highway speeds, on longer trips, or in a brisk fashion that achieves that temperature frequently, regen will happen less often and fuel economy may be better. At least that's what I understand.

Biodiesel blends have two characteristics that may reduce exhaust temperatures. First, the higher cetane will lower EGTs because more of the combustion event will take place in the cylinder before the exhaust valves start to open. Second, the moisture content of biodiesel may lower EGTs. These two items in combination may cause regen to happen more frequently, again, depending on how the car is driven.

I have a corralary thoery: a chipped and aggressively driven '09 may see regen less often and acheive better fuel economy than a gently driven stock car.

Perhaps I have to get a Sportwagen and test these theories.

My car's had no problems with regens throwing error codes.

IndigoBlueWagon · Dec 15, 2008

I recall that: and I have the impression that you do more long distance driving than others here who've tried bio in '09s. Am I mistaken? Because your use of the car, climate, or driving style could affect the frequency and success of the regen process.

rosycrown · Dec 17, 2008

MBoni said:
... I wonder if the problem of regen EGTs has a much simpler solution: B20 thru B50?

If B100 is just on the limits of being out-of-range (such that driving patterns make the difference), then B50 could bring things back to acceptable ranges for a wide range of driving patterns.

That sounds conservatively safe to me.

I'm wondering if you had the temperature that is reached during the regen event and the ignition temperature of both the diesel fuel and the biodiesel fuel, could someone with math skills figure out what percentage of diesel fuel would be needed for the regen to complete. Would it be a ratio of the ignition temperatures?

Harvieux · Dec 18, 2008

rosycrown said:
That sounds conservatively safe to me.

I'm wondering if you had the temperature that is reached during the regen event and the ignition temperature of both the diesel fuel and the biodiesel fuel, could someone with math skills figure out what percentage of diesel fuel would be needed for the regen to complete. Would it be a ratio of the ignition temperatures?

This is all great input but, I think we need to confirm the fuel dilution issue first because if this is a real issue, all the other possible remedies will be mute barring Federally illegal actions. Later!

rodneyh1 · Dec 18, 2008

Can I have my thread back??? This stuff is covered in the regen thread in the emissions area.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=229303

Thanks

GoFaster · Dec 18, 2008

Yes, let's stay on topic, please!

rodneyh1 · Dec 18, 2008

My car won't run

My Jetta had to be towed to the dealer last night. Not BD related, as I haven't run any in about 4K miles. It started right up, ran for about 1 second, and died with a "shudder". Tried to restart, but it just cranked with absolutely no firing at all. Has compression, but doesn't feel quite right. It is pretty cold here right now. It was about 35 yesterday when this happened. Hopefully, I'll here from the dealer this AM. For now, I'm back in my '86 Jetta running a sweet BD blend.

mdl3r1 · Dec 19, 2008

rodneyh1 said:
My Jetta had to be towed to the dealer last night. Not BD related, as I haven't run any in about 4K miles. It started right up, ran for about 1 second, and died with a "shudder". Tried to restart, but it just cranked with absolutely no firing at all. Has compression, but doesn't feel quite right. It is pretty cold here right now. It was about 35 yesterday when this happened. Hopefully, I'll here from the dealer this AM. For now, I'm back in my '86 Jetta running a sweet BD blend.

Wow.
Awaiting to hear the news....and thanks for all you're doing here for all of us, Rod...

mdl3r1 · Dec 19, 2008

Btw, so, ought we to check oil after cold/overnight, or after running it but shutting down only a few minutes, as per owner's Manual? How long after turning it off is optimal accuracy?
Thanks

DPM · Dec 19, 2008

Just to throw some numbers into the ring, I've been poring over the service manual for my Subaru Diesel and found some expected values quoted in the OBD diagnostics section for interesting things...

All these at idle, with a warm engine:
DPF soot loading, scaled 0 to 100%
oil dilution factor, scaled 0 to 15% (calculated from the number of regens)
DPF in and out temps 100-300C
DPF pressure drop 0 to 3kPa

Noted on Scangauge: during a regen, the throttle body closes from it's normal 79% open down to 5%. That takes MAP down from atmospheric to 10psiA. Plus the normal coolant temp of 89-90C immediately rises to 93-94C...

Now, if I can just get my hands on a CAN-BUS OBD interface, I can read much more...

rodneyh1 · Dec 19, 2008

My jetta fired right up for the dealer the next morning (yesterday). No codes, no nothing. Back to the experiment.

B100 in Rod's 2009 Jetta

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Moderator at Large

Vendor , w/Business number

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Veteran Member

Well-known member

Vendor , w/Business number

Veteran Member

Vendor

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Well-known member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Active member

Vendor , w/Business number

Well-known member

Moderator at Large

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Top Post Dawg

Well-known member