my oil froze solid....and vw doesnt care.

armedferret · Jan 15, 2014

Car: 2013 jetta tdi premium, 20k miles, 6mt.

Saturday 5 january I drove my jetta a bit in the morning. Let it then sit until monday morning when I went to go to work. Wouldn't start. Cranked fine, just no turnover.

Had it towed to Antwerpen (I'm stationed in MD) and they pulled the oil filter. This is what it looked like:

obviously, the amount of water required to do this is EXPONENTIALLY beyond "condensation", as temps on the 5th and 6th of january did not even reach zero, much less the -50 or so at which 507-spec is listed to freeze.

However that's exactly what VW is calling it, and basically told the dealership to change the oil and get it back to me.

No teardown inspection, I wasn't allowed to have a sample of the oil to submit for a UOA, and VW refuses to say anything else or provide any sort of warranty on the engine after the 36k factory expires.

Previous service was performed at the dealership approximately 300 miles before the car refused to start.

Just thought I'd share this here and get a hivemind guess as to how long before the engine blows as a result of all the water that was present.

VeeDubTDI · Jan 15, 2014

Have you experienced any intercooler icing? My thought is that perhaps condensation from the intercooler got into the engine (we all know how) and subsequently made it past the rings and into the crank case.

armedferret · Jan 15, 2014

Not that I'm aware of.

Seriously the sheer amount of water that it would have taken to do something like this points to either contaminated oil at the 20k service, or a tech actually pouring AT LEAST a liter of water straight in the filler cap.

Datalore · Jan 15, 2014

I find it VERY odd that they wouldn't let you take a sample so that you may do a UOA on it.

armedferret · Jan 15, 2014

As do I.

Not as odd as their (VW, not the dealer....they're at VW's mercy on a lot of things) adamant denial that there could possibly be anything wrong, and decision not to permit any sort of internal inspection.

TDI2000Zim · Jan 15, 2014

300 miles after an oil change? That shouts DEALER MALPRACTICE.

Unless you have an enemy with access to your car keys. But that would have been one MASTERMIND of an enemy.

Intercooler Icing? That too, and a liter of it, perhaps not, but a half pint sure can happen.

Still, 300 miles after a Dealer Oil Change is hard to overlook.

armedferret · Jan 15, 2014

That's my most likely suspicion as well.

And apparently all I can do is wait and hope it doesn't kersplode as a result....or if it does, that it does so within the next 30k miles....

Either way, I think I'll make the extra drive to Annapolis from now on for service.....

car54 · Jan 15, 2014

a current oil sample will probably still show substantial water contamination. check the dipstick and fill cap for white frothy moisture. it takes several oil changes to remove all traces of water from the engine.

Scoutx · Jan 15, 2014

If I had to guess, and I do, I would suspect water contamination of the dealer's bulk oil tank. It could even be that they used a oil station that they normally don't use and in which water accumulated in that line over time and when they got around to you they used it and that mass lump of water was your reward.

Ski in NC · Jan 15, 2014

Even gunked up oil should not prevent it from starting. Something else is going on. Let them fix whatever they need to, and take an oil sample when you get it back. If something is crapping in the oil, it will show even after one change.

Knuckleheads at that dealer. Geez.

VeeDubTDI · Jan 15, 2014

Yay dealer service!

James & Son · Jan 15, 2014

armedferret said:
Car: 2013 jetta tdi premium, 20k miles, 6mt.

Saturday 5 january I drove my jetta a bit in the morning. Let it then sit until monday morning when I went to go to work. Wouldn't start. Cranked fine, just no turnover.

Had it towed to Antwerpen (I'm stationed in MD) and they pulled the oil filter. This is what it looked like:

obviously, the amount of water required to do this is EXPONENTIALLY beyond "condensation", as temps on the 5th and 6th of january did not even reach zero, much less the -50 or so at which 507-spec is listed to freeze.

However that's exactly what VW is calling it, and basically told the dealership to change the oil and get it back to me.

No teardown inspection, I wasn't allowed to have a sample of the oil to submit for a UOA, and VW refuses to say anything else or provide any sort of warranty on the engine after the 36k factory expires.

Previous service was performed at the dealership approximately 300 miles before the car refused to start.

Just thought I'd share this here and get a hivemind guess as to how long before the engine blows as a result of all the water that was present.

There would be no reason to pull the oil filter. They have had this happen more than once and it probably is their fault and VW is helping them do a cover up( water in bulk oil tank). They knew exactly were to look.

Now I would like to know how this causes a no start. Was the fuel filter contaminated or was there water in the fuel tank. Since the filter was still frozen, the mechanic must have pulled it within a 1/2 hr. of getting it in the shop.

How can you thaw fuel lines or frozen water in the tank and then start the car and see low oil pressure which might lead to looking at the filter without the fuel filter having time to thaw as well.

Seems like they new what to look for rate away.

ChiTownPilot · Jan 15, 2014

James & Son said:
Now I would like to know how this causes a no start.

Considering all the moving parts that are usually bathing in oil... I would assume these parts would have also been frozen solid much like the oil filter. I think this would easily cause the engine not to turn over. I'm just spitballing here though.

Lensdude_com · Jan 15, 2014

You would think there would be significant bearing damage and excessive wear to rotating assemblies with that much water displacing 1/3 of the oil capacity...

armedferret · Jan 15, 2014

Ski in NC said:
Even gunked up oil should not prevent it from starting.

It's not gunked up. It was frozen solid. As in so much water, it completely froze solid.

As for how it causes a no start, I can't say for certain, but there are several vehicles out there that have a safety shutoff built in to the computer that, if no oil pressure is seen at start-up, it won't send fuel to the injectors. Evidence would lead to something similar, but I'm not an expert on VW programming so that's worth what you paid to read it.

8v-of-fury · Jan 15, 2014

A'int that some ****..

Never seen that one before!

Ol'Rattler · Jan 16, 2014

Amazing. Water usually manifests it's self in oil as a homogenous chocolate milkshake color of the oil, not ice crystals. Something is really wacky here. Probably not condensation.

Bigwhitebeast · Jan 16, 2014

armedferret said:
It's not gunked up. It was frozen solid. As in so much water, it completely froze solid.

As for how it causes a no start, I can't say for certain, but there are several vehicles out there that have a safety shutoff built in to the computer that, if no oil pressure is seen at start-up, it won't send fuel to the injectors. Evidence would lead to something similar, but I'm not an expert on VW programming so that's worth what you paid to read it.

Disclaimer: read this at work and couldn't see any pictures

Any vehicle that I have ever had that had an oil pressure gauge did NOT make oil pressure until after it started, heck a Cummins with 15w40 in it won't show oil pressure for up to 15 seconds after started in cold weather.

Heck how many cars get destroyed at these quick lube places because the knuckleheads forgot to put oil back in and the driver pulls away only to have his car die a mile later.

My money would be on that it wasn't frozen but was hydro-locked but not from the intercooler issue (but that could be possible). I would suspect a head gasket leak or something like that. If that is the case don't worry, it's gonna show back up soon

An oil sample would show the presence of anti-freeze right away too, that is where I would start, run it for a few miles and take a sample.

RebelTDI · Jan 16, 2014

I'd be surprised if there aren't any bent rods. I wonder if Oilhammer has encountered this situation?

oilhammer · Jan 16, 2014

Never seen oil freeze like that, no. It is true that a higher-than-normal-for-a-diesel levels of water (moisture) get into the crankcase on the CR engines, that should not be an issue because it boils away and gets sucked into the breather. That's why they put heaters on the breather tubes (even the VEs and PDs have those), so the breather tube won't freeze solid in cold weather during warmup.

But in this case, it looks like either water was in the oil that was poured into the crankcase, or a LOT of short trips/excessive idling in super duper cold temps happened in succession over a concentrated period of time, and the water just built up.

Remember, HOT oil is good. And it takes a L-O-N-G time to get the oil good and hot.... hot enough that any water accumulating in the crankcase is boiled away to vapor and pulled out. 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes... isn't enough in very cold weather.

And if it builds up, eventually it will settle out to the lowest spot in the engine: the sump. Then at start up, guess what gets sucked up into the filter first?

CopaMundial · Jan 16, 2014

How can they refuse to allow you to get a sample of your OWN oil in your car?
I mean, I can picture them trying to say no, but in a situation like that you have to stand up for yourself. Even if they had already drained and dumped the oil, just scrape some of that sh!t off the filter, or take the entire filter. It's YOUR filter.

Three hundred miles after an oil change?!?! There is absolutely zero chance that this is unrelated to the oil change. Sure, we can work ourselves into knots trying to come up with possible conditions that could exist in a car to create a problem... but those conditions would not create that amount of water in only 300 miles. If there were problems severe enough to create that condition from good oil in 300 miles then the car would have exhibited other problems in it's previous 10k oil change interval (especially considering the car has only 20k miles total).

This is either lawyer-worthy dealership abuse, or lawyer-worthy manufacturing problems... but you may have already lost enough evidence that your position is weakened.
Three hundred m

oilhammer · Jan 16, 2014

I agree, however this is the formula for how much water is produced when gasoline burns:

A H2O molecule has two Hydrogen atoms (atomic weight 1) and one oxygen atom (atomic weight of 16 each). Each Hydrogen atom has a weight of 1, and the oxygen atom has a weight of 16, giving each single molecule of H20 an atomic weight of 18 (2 from Hydrogen and 16 from oxygen).

Therefore, to calculate the amount of H2O produced from a gallon of gasoline, the weight of the Hydrogen in the gasoline is multiplied by 18/2 or 9.

Since gasoline is about 87% carbon and 13% hydrogen by weight, the Hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline weighs 0.8 pounds (6.3 lbs. x .13). We can then multiply the weight of the Hydrogen (0.8 pounds) by 9, which equals 7 pounds of H2O or water and water vapor.

I know diesel would be less, but still, in 300 miles (in the cold winter) one could have burned potentially 10 gallons of diesel in short trips, which could be several POUNDS of water anyways, and it is about 8 pounds per gallon of water, so even 2 pounds would be a quart of water.

Now the VAST majority of it would be going out the exhaust. However, on a CR TDI, much of this exhaust under light loads and periodic idle times is recirculated back into the engine via one of the two EGR systems. So.....

jimbote · Jan 16, 2014

that much water in the oil can damage the bearing shells....

dieseldorf · Jan 16, 2014

Man, that is truly bizarre. And my sympathies to the owner of this car.

Is it my imagination, or could this only happen at a VW dealer

ChiTownPilot · Jan 16, 2014

oilhammer said:
or a LOT of short trips/excessive idling in super duper cold temps happened in succession over a concentrated period of time, and the water just built up.
Remember, HOT oil is good. And it takes a L-O-N-G time to get the oil good and hot.... hot enough that any water accumulating in the crankcase is boiled away to vapor and pulled out. 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes... isn't enough in very cold weather.
And if it builds up, eventually it will settle out to the lowest spot in the engine: the sump. Then at start up, guess what gets sucked up into the filter first?

Aviation actually sees this ALOT. Fair weather pilots purchase aircraft that they don't want to fly in the winter and install heating pads to the oil pan that they leave plugged in all winter. The warmth created is the perfect recipe for condensation. They then think they are doing some good by pulling the plane out of the hangar and running the engine for 5-10 min to "get the juices flowing". Unfortunately since the oil never gets to that "HOT" point, all they really do is mix that condensation into their oil in a very efficient manner. Then they put the plane away and start the process all over again... Slowly allowing more and more water to accumulate all winter long. It is usually recommended to fly the plane for at least 45min as opposed to idling it for 10. Didn't mean to stray from the car world... But it seemed relevant

TooSlick · Jan 16, 2014

With the engine completely cold, I'd drain a quart of oil from the sump into a glass jar and see if water settles out on the bottom.

What was the dealers explanation for the frozen oil filter? Have they seen it before?

tomo366 · Jan 16, 2014

The thing that bothers me is this is in Maryland.......It just doesn't get that cold here!!!
Although we did have 2 mornings a week and a half ago that were that coldest it had been here in 20 years

CopaMundial · Jan 16, 2014

oilhammer said:
I agree, however this is the formula for how much water is produced when gasoline burns:

A H2O molecule has two Hydrogen atoms (atomic weight 1) and one oxygen atom (atomic weight of 16 each). Each Hydrogen atom has a weight of 1, and the oxygen atom has a weight of 16, giving each single molecule of H20 an atomic weight of 18 (2 from Hydrogen and 16 from oxygen).

Therefore, to calculate the amount of H2O produced from a gallon of gasoline, the weight of the Hydrogen in the gasoline is multiplied by 18/2 or 9.

Since gasoline is about 87% carbon and 13% hydrogen by weight, the Hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline weighs 0.8 pounds (6.3 lbs. x .13). We can then multiply the weight of the Hydrogen (0.8 pounds) by 9, which equals 7 pounds of H2O or water and water vapor.

I know diesel would be less, but still, in 300 miles (in the cold winter) one could have burned potentially 10 gallons of diesel in short trips, which could be several POUNDS of water anyways, and it is about 8 pounds per gallon of water, so even 2 pounds would be a quart of water.

Now the VAST majority of it would be going out the exhaust. However, on a CR TDI, much of this exhaust under light loads and periodic idle times is recirculated back into the engine via one of the two EGR systems. So.....

Great theory.
Now explain why those conditions would suddenly manifest themselves in a single 300 mile timeframe but not in the prior 19,700 miles.

PakProtector · Jan 16, 2014

CopaMundial said:
Great theory.
Now explain why those conditions would suddenly manifest themselves in a single 300 mile timeframe but not in the prior 19,700 miles.

There is maybe 2/3 of a cup of water in that filter...though I suspect less. It is a good thing it didn't start or you'd have yer new engine. The crankcase condensate theory looks good to me, and several short rides in that 300 miles could have done it.

A pound of fuel makes a pound of water. The fuel consumption 'thing' gave Zeppelin operators fits, and finally the Akron and Macon were equipped with exhaust condensers to recover most of it. Preserved the Helium...

The turbo oil gets pretty hot, and then returned to the CC, where hopefully it sheds most of its moisture more effectively than the sump contents at large.
cheers,
Douglas

scdevon · Jan 16, 2014

Never seen anything like it no matter how cold. Your oil didn't freeze. The WATER in your oil froze.

Your car got water contaminated oil during the oil change or outright vandalism by someone intentionally adding water to the oil.

My next phone call would be to my insurance company or the shop's insurance company,

my oil froze solid....and vw doesnt care.

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