The gasoline engine is NOT dead.

subi just a tiny player in the pool of world wide sales

2.2TDI said:

Let's just say Subaru has a better reputation then Volkswagen worldwide for reliability... I'll stand by Nick on saying they're more reliable aswell...

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VWAG may not be that big of a brand in north america but world wide they are a Goliath compared to Subaru. And I have seen nothing from around the world saying they are considered a more reliable brand than VWAG (VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat, .......). Your statement is much more of a perception based on VWs smaller foot print here in north america compared to their sales numbers in the rest of the world........

The last real data I saw showed the Golf and Corolla were still periodically swapping position to the claim of the best selling car of all time. Subi sales are not even on the map compared to units put out around the world under the VWAG labels......

Here are some numbers off of a quick search, haven't really dug that deep into the date but this is what I found off of that quick search....

Subaru's global sales, which are seen growing 4 percent to 752,000 units.

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2010, Volkswagen Group Overtakes Toyota As World's Biggest Automaker .... and Lamborghini (another VWAG brand) in combined worldwide sales - for last year available Toyota was 7.2 million units while VWAG had a output of 7.9 million units.

Volkswagen Group sells passenger cars under the Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT, Škoda and Volkswagen marques; motorcycles under the Ducati brand; and commercial vehicles under the MAN, Scania, Neoplan and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles marques.[8] It is divided into two primary divisions, the Automotive Division and the Financial Services Division, and has approximately 340 subsidiary companies.[9] The company has operations in approximately 150 countries and operates 100 production facilities across 27 countries. It holds a 19.9% non-controlling shareholding in Suzuki and has two major joint-ventures in China (FAW-Volkswagen and Shanghai Volkswagen).

The last data available showed they had a annual production of 7.9 million units a year, with a plan to hit 10 million units sold by 2018.....

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... Audi achieves 43rd consecutive record month of U.S. sales in July, 2014.... - Sales for the most recent month rose 11.9% to 14,616 vehicles
- Demand for the all-new Audi A3 Sedan remained strong deep into its launch year
- Due to lean inventories, Audi pulled its 2015 model launch ahead

Audi reported that its July 2014 sales increased 11.9% to 14,616 vehicles, a total that stands as the 43rd consecutive month of record monthly U.S. sales for the brand. Audi U.S. sales year-to-date increased 13.3% to 98,965 vehicles.

Audi has maintained steady momentum throughout 2014, with the best-ever July results following record sales for the first half of the year. The previous July record was set in 2013 with sales of 13,064 vehicles. To date, 2014 has produced four of the six best U.S. sales months for the premium car brand.

enlarge“Due to the sustained high demand for our Premium cars, we needed to move our 2015 model year release ahead of schedule as supply became available early July,” said Mark Del Rosso, Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, Audi of America. “That gives us tremendous confidence heading into the second half of the year with the new Audi A3 Cabriolet, A3 Sedan TDI and the S3 performance model reaching showrooms within weeks, and the new Q3 crossover arriving later this fall.”

By the end of July, Audi and its U.S. dealers had a lean 47 days’ supply of unsold cars and 29 days of unsold SUVs in inventory.

After its April U.S. sales debut, the 2015 Audi A3 Sedan has maintained a strong and consistent sales pace. July 2014 brought 2,164 A3 sales to solidify the model’s standing among the top three of the brand’s best sellers.

July totals for the top-of-the-range Audi models kept pace, constituting nearly one-third of all Audi sales. Audi A8 demand increased 11.3% for the month as customers responded well to the updated 2015 model line. Audi Q7 YTD sales increased by 8.9%.

July is the 12th consecutive month of record sales for Audi Certified pre-owned. It also marks the second highest monthly total of all-time with an increase of 26.6%, to a total of 4,116 CPO vehicles sold; CPO sales year-to-date increased 15.6 %.

Highlights:

- The all-new 2015 Audi A3 sedan models officially went on sale this spring, with 9,899 cars sold since launch.
- Sales of Audi premium category vehicles (Audi A6, Audi A7, Audi A8, and Audi Q7) increased 13% year-to-date, representing 32.2% of total Audi sales year-to-date and 32% of the Audi year-to-date sales gain.
- Sales mix for Audi S performance variants finished the month at 18.5% for the S4 sedan; 32% for the S5/ RS 5; 5.5% for the S6; 22.4% for the S7 / RS 7; 15.1% for the S8; 34.7% for the TTS and TTS Roadster, and 7.7% for the SQ5 crossover.
- Sales of Audi A8 increased 11.3% compared to July 2013
- Sales of the Audi Q5 increased 0.4% compared to July 2013 due mostly to tight supplies; YTD sales grew 7.6% compared to previous period.
- Sales of the Audi Q7 increased 8.9% compared to July 2013; YTD sales grew 24.9% compared to previous period.
- July sales mix for Audi TDI models: Audi A6 TDI at 18.8%; Audi A7 TDI at 14.7%; A8 TDI at 10.7%; Audi Q5 TDI at 14.2%, Audi Q7 TDI at 24.1%, with an overall mix of 13.3% on 1,298 total TDI sales for July.
- Audi Certified pre-owned sales increased 26.6% to 4,116 vehicles in July; YTD CPO sales rose 15.6% to 25,943 vehicles sold.
- Audi holds the longest running monthly record sales streak in the premium car market according to a competitive sales report from MotorIntelligence.com.

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2.2TDI said:

I'm not talking about sales... I'm talking about reliability, there's a difference... In Europe a golf is in every single corner, that doesn't make it reliable

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Using the numbers I found comparing 2010 VWAG sales to current Subi sales ~10 VWAG units hit the road for every single Subi unit sold.

VW has a perception issue here because some of the dealers are less than useless when it comes to working on their cars. But when you look at the current Audi models sold, which are in many cases the exact same cars that perception of brand reliability issues is simply not there!

Then you throw in the fact that I am sure some of the current Subi owners are not aware of, in parts of the US Subis are a hard sale. In these regions the Subi dealers are more a boutique sales center than a actual auto dealer because sales numbers are so low. In places like Colorado Subis fill the roads, but back in my home region of the south no one drives them.

I do not know of a single area of the US that has similar when it comes to VW sales. In areas without dealers people will drive hours to big cities just purchase VW models. I have a friend that loves Subis who travels to my part of the US to pick them up for pennies compared to what they get for the same car in Colorado.....

rotarykid said:

VW has a perception issue here because some of the dealers are less than useless when it comes to working on their cars.

But when you look at the current Audi models sold, which are in many cases the exact same cars that perception of brand reliability issues is simply not there!

Click to expand...

Probably because...

I have noticed that those spending big coin on cars or anything have a tough time admitting they are not impressed with their purchase, be it reliability, value or what have you. Admitting so makes them look stupid.

AS of June VW sales in the US are 179,144 units

AS of June VW sales in the US are 179,144 units, how these sales numbers look compared to similar auto makers for the year:

Rank Automaker June 2014 % Change Year To Date % Change June 2014 Market ShareYTD
Market
Share
#22 Acura 11,206 -18.6% 77,951 1.3% 0.8% 1.0%

#20 Audi 16,867 23.1% 84,349 13.6% 1.2% 1.0%

#36 Bentley 216 5.9% 1,308 11.4% 0.1% 0.1%

#13 BMW 30,201 11.5% 157,382 12.1% 2.1% 1.9%

#19 Buick 21,403 18.4% 113,472 12.5% 1.5% 1.4%

#21Cadillac 13,941 0.1% 82,117 -1.9% 1.0% 1.0%

#2Chevrolet 188,567 -2.5% 1,027,908 1.3% 13.3%12.6%

#17Chrysler 24,026 -11.8% 141,068 -13.9% 1.7% 1.7%

#9 Dodge 50,314 0.9% 306,924 -3.6% 3.5% 3.8%

#29 Fiat 4,478 10.6% 24,972 15.5% 0.3% 3.0%

#1 Ford 214,125 -5.9% 1,220,835 -0.1% 15.1% 14.9%

#10 GMC 43,550 10.6% 232,371 5.3% 3.1% 2.8%

#4 Honda 117,817 -4.3% 661,485 -1.1% 8.3% 8.1%

#6 Hyundai 67,407 3.7% 364,434 0.9% 4.7% 4.5%

#23 Infiniti 8,574 -5.9% 59,341 13.6% 0.6% 0.7%

#33 Jaguar 1,263 -22.8% 8,317 6.7% 0.1% 0.1%

#7 Jeep 57,006 27.8% 332,802 45.1% 4.0% 4.1%

#8 Kia 50,644 0.2% 297,413 7.2% 3.6% 3.6%

#31Land Rover 4,038 16.4% 26,186 13.9% 0.3% 0.3%

#18 Lexus 23,518 10.1% 138,689 17.1% 1.7% 1.7%

#24 Lincoln 7,271 -2.7% 44,522 16.3% 0.5% 0.5%

#34 Maserati 966 233% 5,442 329% 0.1% 0.1%

#16 Mazda 26,208 16.5% 156,431 7.9% 1.8% 1.9%

#15Mercedes-Benz ^28,707 8.8% 163,107 7.7% 2.0% 2.0%

#27 Mini 5,376 -18.2% 24,152 -25.4% 0.4% 0.3%

#25 Mitsubishi 6,021 13.7% 39,672 30.2% 0.4% 0.5%

#5 Nissan 101,069 6.4% 645,136 12.7% 7.1% 7.9%

#30 Porsche 4,102 10.9% 22,919 7.6% 0.3% 0.3%

#12 Ram 35,262 14.0% 214,357 22.4% 2.5% 2.6%

#28 Scion 4,612 -27.3% 30,636 -12.5% 0.3% 0.4%

#35 Smart 673 -13.8% 4,647 4.2% 0.1% 0.1%

#11 Subaru 41,367 5.4% 238,008 16.3% 2.9% 2.9%

#37 Suzuki --- -100% --- -100% 0.0% 0.0%

#32 Tesla ‡ 2,350 71.0% 13,230 11.4% 0.2% 0.2%

#3 Toyota 173,584 3.6% 996,282 4.3% 12.2% 12.2%

#14Volkswagen 28,827 -22.0% 179,144 -13.4% 2.0% 2.2%

#26 Volvo 5,983 -10.4% 29,330 -10.0% 0.4% 0.4%
---------------------------- ----------

General Motors ............ 267,461 1.0% 1,455,868 2.5% 18.8% 17.8%

Ford Motor Company....... 221,396 -5.8% 1,265,357 -1.9% 15.6% 15.5%

Toyota Motor Corporation 201,714 3.3% 1,165,607 5.1% 14.2% 14.3%

Chrysler Group ............ 171,086 9.2% 1,020,123 12.3% 12.0% 12.5%

Honda Motor Company.... 129,023 -5.8% 739,436 -0.8% 9.1% 9.1%

Hyundai-Kia ................. 118,051 2.2% 661,847 3.7% 8.3% 8.1%

Nissan Motor Company.... 109,643 5.3% 704,477 12.8% 7.7% 8.6%

Volkswagen
Group * ........................... 50,011 -8.3% 287,719 -5.2% 3.5% 3.5%

BMW-Mini............................ 35,577 5.7% 181,534 5.1% 2.5% 2.2%

Daimler................................ 29,380 8.2% 167,754 7.6% 2.1% 2.1%

Jaguar-Land Rover................. 5,301 3.8% 34,503 12.1% 0.4% 0.4%
---------------------------

Total................................ 1,421,963 1.2% 8,168,888 4.3% ------

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..

Sales numbers, non-sequiter doesn't matter one bit, whaaaaaaah????

^ "Problems per 100 vehicles"

Define "problems"....what...it went in for a tail light bulb or a transmission went?

Funny thing is my friend drives nothing but a Lexus and he is not impressed with his last one. There is a dash rattle that the dealers haven't been able to address.

rotarykid said:

Using the numbers I found comparing 2010 VWAG sales to current Subi sales ~10 VWAG units hit the road for every single Subi unit sold.
VW has a perception issue here because some of the dealers are less than useless when it comes to working on their cars. But when you look at the current Audi models sold, which are in many cases the exact same cars that perception of brand reliability issues is simply not there!
Then you throw in the fact that I am sure some of the current Subi owners are not aware of, in parts of the US Subis are a hard sale. In these regions the Subi dealers are more a boutique sales center than a actual auto dealer because sales numbers are so low. In places like Colorado Subis fill the roads, but back in my home region of the south no one drives them.
I do not know of a single area of the US that has similar when it comes to VW sales. In areas without dealers people will drive hours to big cities just purchase VW models. I have a friend that loves Subis who travels to my part of the US to pick them up for pennies compared to what they get for the same car in Colorado.....

Click to expand...

Well according to chart above Subi as you call it is not a "hard" sale. Almost double VW. Why no 4 wd jetta golf passat. Subi is eating your lunch vw and little Mazda with basically 2 cars that sell volume is right up their rear. Mazda is selling because of good value, great mileage, great looks and lots of awards. M6 is winning the car magazine comparos not jetta and passat as much. The Euro thinking at the Luxo end is working because the margins are there and the customer wants something special. It obviously needs some tweaking in about a dozen areas. The product as well even though we all think its nice. Sexier lines would help. Better training. Product tweaks and maybe turbo sales on national tv indicate that turbos are not the end all to be all. No turbos at Toyota, Honda, Nissan, subi , Mazda, and many others. I think turbos scare many average Americans and Canadians. Even still.....I know Ford is doing well with them but notice the hidden language..."ecoboost"....The best tweak vw made this year is the 1.8t. Now we see if it is truly a tough, dependable, low maintenance, high mileage and satisfaction engine. Time will tell...gasoline is still king...not on this site but certainly in the market. What might sell is a reskinned sexier slightly bigger 4 wd 1.8t jetta that is world class value and warranty. VW needs a more North American strategy that includes way more than Passat in Tenessee.

It is sad that VW won't do a TDi with AWD. Seems like they could dominate the market here. OTOH part of the TDi allure is the mpg, which will simply go down with AWD. Maybe not to the floor but at least a few mpg.

As I move into owning N+1 vehicles I think I'd rather not have AWD for a daily driver. It'd be nice, but not necessary. There is something to be said for simplicity.

Will say VW would have quite a jump in market share if they would just bring over the Polo (Lupo?), whatever is the size below Golf. Those Fiat 500's don't seem very large, nor Yaris or Fit. Seems like a shoe-in. But I'm preaching to the choir on that one, I know.

nicklockard said:

Sales numbers, non-sequiter doesn't matter one bit, whaaaaaaah????

Click to expand...

Seems like every year VW places itself below the mid point of the chart. I wonder if this is part of their business strategy?

They're getting better, they used to be near the bottom.

aja8888 said:

Seems like every year VW places itself below the mid point of the chart. I wonder if this is part of their business strategy?

Click to expand...

I doubt it! I think all hands are on deck trying to find the solution s. I hope they read this blog because there are lots of smart ideas being generated.

supton said:

I think I'd rather not have AWD for a daily driver.

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Having come from one in my last car, I certainly would not buy another unless I lived in serious snow country in the mountains and unless it came with a diesel.

This based on having an AWD for 15 years and being stuck behind 2WD traffic that are spinning their wheels. And AWD does not brake you any better.

A good set of Hakka snow tires is all a 2WD needs.

My wife has an AWD Dodge Durango and I have a 2WD 2013 Passat TDI with snow tires. Unless the snow is incredibly deep here in Michigan, I preferred to drive my Passat over the Durango...it simply handled better.

My 2013 Passat is the best handling car I've ever had in the snow. The combo with the snow tires made it absolutely incredible. I never even came close to being stuck, and we had record snowfalls last winter.

Well, I do life in snow country, and have two driveways at my house, and one of them is often off-limits for my Jetta, regardless of tires. I've gotten stuck in a friends driveway on which all my friends made no problem, they had all seasons while I was running good snows. They had AWD and their cars shrugged off the incline. Mine, not so much. Ground clearance and incline, once/twice a year it's a problem.

But over 99% of the time it's been fine. Heck even good all seasons are often good enough. It's those occasional times that it's not, it's not.

Edit: yeah, I prefer my Jetta in the snow, over my truck. It's simply tail happy in RWD. Its traction control is obnoxious, while I've never really felt at a loss even with an open diff in the Jetta (well, up until it was truly stuck and in need of both axles being drive axles).

supton said:

Well, I do life in snow country, and have two driveways at my house, and one of them is often off-limits for my Jetta, regardless of tires. I've gotten stuck in a friends driveway on which all my friends made no problem, they had all seasons while I was running good snows. They had AWD and their cars shrugged off the incline. Mine, not so much. Ground clearance and incline, once/twice a year it's a problem.

But over 99% of the time it's been fine. Heck even good all seasons are often good enough. It's those occasional times that it's not, it's not.

Edit: yeah, I prefer my Jetta in the snow, over my truck. It's simply tail happy in RWD. Its traction control is obnoxious, while I've never really felt at a loss even with an open diff in the Jetta (well, up until it was truly stuck and in need of both axles being drive axles).

Click to expand...

Everyone has an opinion about how great 2 wd in snow. Agreed. The point is though that vw is getting their lunch eaten. Why? Styling, repairs, lack of a great gasoline super efficient gasoline engine (maybe the new 1.8 helps here) AND according to tens of thousands partially the LACK of 4 wd. Look at MB. They used to sell the occasional 4 matic. Now it's basically all they sell in all their lines except AMG. It's an obvious hole in their NA marketing. It's not like they need to invent it. C'mon guys. TDI with 4wd would be very appealing to many thousands more no matter how good our FWD drives in snow. It's perception!!

El Dobro said:

They're getting better, they used to be near the bottom.

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Preview of VW's 2015 sales pitch:

"Sorry for the ugly, expensive break-down cars, but at least we don't suck as much as we used to!

nick---it is starting to sound like you have a high level of resentment

waltzconmigo said:

nick---it is starting to sound like you have a high level of resentment

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Waltz,

Not really, I just find it entertaining how much we apologize for a consistently disengaged, sub-par company that just can't bring itself to care about the world's largest car sales market. I love the Tdi technology base and applaud VW for selling (once upon a time) an economical diesel passenger vehicle, but you can't rest on your laurels and say "well back in 2006 we sold a good value diesel car"...

I hope and pine for another 'Tdi golden age' like 2000-2006 was.

nick---i can not disagree with you but i think most of it comes down to customer service. my brother drives a '06 GTI (DSG) that has had zero problems whereas my father's '05 gasser passat (DSG) had so many annoying problems that once the extended warranty was up that he traded it in (for a minivan for my mom) and is now driving my mother's old '01 Buick LeSabre and is happy with it. I am not sure what this means but it does say something.

And some of us simply don't have those piles of problems, and our cars needn't return to the dealer for anything, so their service is of no consequence whatsoever.

As to the "value" of the diesels in particular, yes, that has diminished to a point that money isn't really a determining factor to purchase one. However they still offer great driveability and while not as good as before, a still decent level of fuel economy. The technology is pretty neat, too, albeit a bit fragile.

I doubt I'll ever have the sour grapes issue some people have.

nicklockard said:

Click to expand...

Thanks. Here's some more data, from Consumer Reports. This is manufacturers' overall reliability rankings (US models only), with higher values being better:

• Lexus: 79
• Acura: 75
• Audi: 74
• Subaru: 72
• Toyota: 72
• Mazda: 71
• Honda: 70
• Infiniti: 69
• Mercedes-Benz: 68
• BMW: 66
• Volvo: 66
• Buick: 63
• GMC: 63
• Chrysler: 62
• Kia: 61
• Hyundai: 60
• Volkswagen: 59
• Nissan: 59
• Chevrolet: 56
• Cadillac: 54
• Dodge: 53
• Ford: 50
• Jeep: 50

The overall pattern of the CR data is similar to the JD Power pattern, although there are a few exceptions, like Cadillac. This repeatability is good from a scientific standpoint.

Examining CR's model-by-model data, VWs vary greatly in reliability. The worst (like the Beetle) are much worse than average, whereas the best (like the Golf) are better than average. Relevant for this forum, TDI models routinely rank one point below (on a five-point scale) their gas counterparts, mostly because of fuel line problems.

To answer another question posted about the JD Power data, CR does weight problems by severity, so a burned-out vanity mirror light bulb would not count the same as a transmission that self-destructs.

And yet at any given time in the Lexus dealership, several engines are in pieces:



So I take much of those surveys with a grain of salt.

This particular post has turned into a flame war. It kinda seemed like the OP was trying to entice the loyal TDI fan base into an argument. Look, we get it -- gasoline engines are become more efficient and there are a handful of very practical DDs that considering the fuel price, come out on top of the TDIs. We got that. Then when the TDI crowd turns back around and says that we enjoy being able to drive a car with the whole package -- some like having the stick option, torquey diesel engine, good fuel economy, fun to drive (compared to a Yaris, Corolloa, Prius, Civic, etc), then the people who have been soured by VW at some point come back with a counter point that VW is not reliable!

How about the bitter people just start a new topic called "Why I got rid of my TDI / VW and traded for something better"?

I really do love the 1.8T Jetta and might consider that when my wife needs to trade in her '09 Jetta 2.5S 5MT. I also think that Mazda's CX5 is a great option and she loves it too! So it's not that most of us disagree with you, but a lot of the people on this thread seem like they have an agenda with us people who are still loyal to our TDIs.

I bought my Jetta TDI last July for a few reasons. 1) I was driving 160 miles a day so needed something fuel efficient. I could have purchased a Yaris, Prius C, Civic, Civic Hybrid, Mazda 3, etc. Out of those, I would have considered the Mazda 3 as a close second, but that brings us to point 2) Fun factor. Yes, the Mazda 3 with it's 155 HP 2 liter and manual tranny was ok, but it didn't have the torque and sweet turbo diesel sound. I could have looked at the 184 HP 2.5 liter, but then I have to get a slushbox. Even then, it didn't "feel" as fast as the 140 HP Jetta with a 6MT. For work, I had a rental Mazda 3 with the 2 liter and auto. Even with my 150 mile round trip to our other office going only 5 over the speed limit, I averaged 37 mpg (80% highway). I have made that trip with my car and without trying for FE, gotten 48 mpg. So with me paying 3.80 a gal for diesel lately, I would have to find gas for consistently under $3/gal to break even. And I would be missing the engine I love so much. Which is point 3) The car is a blast to drive. I look for excuses to go drive. When I go on a coffee / Red Bull run, I purposely drive to the gas station 4 miles away instead of the one right on the corner because I love hearing the turbo spool, the engine grunt, and rowing gears.

(Yes, I emphasize the fun factor a lot. If you are going to drive a car every day, might has well enjoy it.)

oilhammer said:

And yet at any given time in the Lexus dealership, several engines are in pieces:

So I take much of those surveys with a grain of salt.

Click to expand...

anyone can post a picture of a service bay with engines and parts on the ground... I've seen that in other dealerships too where the brand is at the top of the reliability list and they have engines and parts lying on the ground, it means nothing.

I have no agenda here, I have no bias either, because I'm driving a VW, but I know what I got myself into. Leave it to each there own... it comes down to personal preference at the end of day, and like my dad used to say, you can't crap in someone's taste

Exactly, it means nothing, just like those surveys. We agree.

I'm driving a Volkswagen, too.

That's funny anyone calling this garbage scientific....LOL

I can think of off the top of my head four A4 TDI cars that have exceeded 400,000 miles without anything other than regular maintenance.........None of them are complainers like I describe. One of the guys I was talking to yesterday afternoon says this thing is the most reliable anything he has ever owned!!!! YOur so called scientific garbage doesn't included these facts....

Most of the people I know never fill out these kinds of surveys that they get this so called data from, I never have and no intention of ever doing so.... And one of the women I do know who fills all the surveys that come across her screen is pretty useless when it comes reality based opinions......

srs5694 said:

Thanks. Here's some more data, from Consumer Reports. This is manufacturers' overall reliability rankings (US models only), with higher values being better:

• Lexus: 79
• Acura: 75
• Audi: 74
• Subaru: 72
• Toyota: 72
• Mazda: 71
• Honda: 70
• Infiniti: 69
• Mercedes-Benz: 68
• BMW: 66
• Volvo: 66
• Buick: 63
• GMC: 63
• Chrysler: 62
• Kia: 61
• Hyundai: 60
• Volkswagen: 59
• Nissan: 59
• Chevrolet: 56
• Cadillac: 54
• Dodge: 53
• Ford: 50
• Jeep: 50

The overall pattern of the CR data is similar to the JD Power pattern, although there are a few exceptions, like Cadillac. This repeatability is good from a scientific standpoint.

Examining CR's model-by-model data, VWs vary greatly in reliability. The worst (like the Beetle) are much worse than average, whereas the best (like the Golf) are better than average. Relevant for this forum, TDI models routinely rank one point below (on a five-point scale) their gas counterparts, mostly because of fuel line problems.

To answer another question posted about the JD Power data, CR does weight problems by severity, so a burned-out vanity mirror light bulb would not count the same as a transmission that self-destructs.

Click to expand...

There is not a lot of science to this kind of data as was pointed out by someone else on this thread. These numbers are from drivers/owners that have a inclination to complain about things. And as was pointed out, people that pay a premium price for something are less likely eat crow over their purchase...

So I always find it a little amusing that someone calls this kind of what I call complainer based garbage scientific in any way......

Complainers complain and often do little else...While everybody else deals with whatever issues arise. Only complaining when something catastrophic happens that they feel has not been dealt with properly....

Then you throw in the owners who sink their fortune into what ever they have not saying a peep when something goes wrong....

So that is how "Scientific these ratings are".......In my opinion they are useful as a loose informational guide of how the whiners and complainers feel about a product.....But for the rest of it the data is really not vary useful when deciding what to purchase....

2.2TDI said:

anyone can post a picture of a service bay with engines and parts on the ground... I've seen that in other dealerships too where the brand is at the top of the reliability list and they have engines and parts lying on the ground, it means nothing.

Click to expand...

oilhammer said:

Exactly, it means nothing, just like those surveys. We agree.

Click to expand...

I really should stay out of this, but as somebody with training in the social sciences, I can't. I promise this will be my last post on this subject.

In 2011, the top five automakers by market share were GM (19.4%), Ford (16.5%), Toyota (12.6%), Chrysler (10.5%), and Honda (9.7%), according to Motor Trend (reporting others' data). According to Wikipedia, the number of vehicles registered per capita in the US varies between 340 vehicles per 1,000 people (Colorado) to 1,140 vehicles per 1,000 people (Wyoming). In my home state (Rhode Island), it's 730 per 1,000. Rhode Island's population is just over 1,000,000. Crunching these numbers shows that there will be about 730,000 vehicles registered in Rhode Island, of which roughly 142,000 will be GMs, 120,000 will be Fords, 92,000 will be Toyotas, 77,000 will be Chryslers, 71,000 will be Hondas, and so on down the list.

Take those 92,000 Toyotas in Rhode Island and assume that just 1% of them require service on any given week. (That would be a lousy figure for a brand-new car, but over the course of a car's lifetime, a 1% chance of service in a week seems pretty good to me.) That's 9,200 per week in the tiny state of Rhode Island. That's more than enough to keep plenty of Toyota repair shops in business, and of course you'll have no problems finding even a new Toyota with its engine on the floor of the shop. That can be dramatic and may draw attention. On the other side of the scale, Ford is, according to Consumer Reports, the least reliable of those five brands. If you assume that just 0.1% of Fords will last five years without needing any major work, that works out to 46 whose owners will say they've had no problems in five years of ownership. Again, people who post such experiences will be noticed, despite the fact that they're in the extreme minority. Dramatic claims on either end tend to draw attention and may stick in your memory, which is a cognitive flaw of humans known as the availability heuristic.

In other words, anecdotal evidence is worthless when determining reliability. The only reliable way to learn about the reliability of cars is to conduct scientific surveys. Consumer Reports, JD Powers, and no doubt others conduct such surveys, and they tend to show similar things. You can try to dismiss the results as being thrown off by "complainers." This could be the case in a poorly-designed survey. Internet surveys, in which anybody can respond as often as they like, are prone to this type of problem, which is known technically as self-reporting bias. Consumer Reports and JD Powers hire professional survey researchers and statisticians to collect and crunch their numbers, though; they're well aware of the issues and they know how to control for them. Furthermore, the claim that the numbers are skewed by self-report bias begs the question: Why does a poor-performing vehicle or brand (such as the VW Beetle or Ford) produce more complainers than a better-performing model or brand (such as the VW Golf TSI or Toyota)? It's not clear why that would be the case. Unless somebody can explain that, and provide some data to back up a claim of bias, I'll take the survey results of Consumer Reports and JD Powers over unsubstantiated claims of bias in the data and anecdotal evidence any day.

You forgot that you were looking at US sales figures.... Volkswagen sells far more globally. They typically float around the top, in some cases THE top, along with GM, Ford, and Toyota.

However... you are correct, the compiling of data surely suggests they are all junk, and will burst into flames at any minute. I get that. Hasn't happened to me, and I've bought five of them brand new. Even back in 1991, the Dark Days of VoA (when they were considering pulling out of this market completely).

What you DON'T see in these data surveys, is the human factor, and how people are treated. I worked at Lexus, and saw stuff they had breaking left and right, and an almost alarming rate. I never would have realized just how bad some of their stuff was, except I was THERE, and going to school talking to other techs in other parts of the country, found out it was the same everywhere. Not just me, not just our dealership. When I worked at Volkswagen, I saw and experienced similar things. The difference? Toyota literally bends over backwards to keep the owners happy. Even if it is a completely, obviously, non-warrantable issue. They take care of it. We had people who couldn't prove they did more than five oil changes inside of 100,000 miles on an 8 year old ES300 whose engine sludged up, yet Toyota's SPA program gladly picked up the $11,000 tab (yes, that's right, eleven grand!) to put a brand spanking new shortblock in those cars, and in many cases gave them a loaner or rental reimbursement while it was being repaired.

Our shop's '98 Sienna, which we bought before 100k miles, but well out of the original warranty, with a bad transmission, and a subsequently used transmission, failed around 90k miles. Toyota picked up the tab, 100%.

Volkswagen on the other hand, quickly likes to blame the owner, blame the environment, climate change, solar flares, Canada, or whatever else they can possibly pull out of their butt to deny anything at all. Even on items that should be clearly 100% covered.

So which owner do you think is going to give rave reviews of a car? I guarantee you, that ES and IS pictured above, with their innards spread across the floor, have owners that were put up in a brand new ES or RX loaner the entire time their cars were repaired.... no matter how long it took. I saw people in loaners for over a month when they had all the brake boosters failing on the RX330s and they couldn't figure out what the problem was. Those people, because of how they are treated, like those cars, and more often than not, will give good reviews and return to the brand.

But the guy who brings his Jetta into a dealership in Memphis for a timing belt job before going on vacation and despite telling them the car doesn't sound right when they are finished and gets as far as St. Louis before the whole shabang lets go? Yeah, he gets to buy a new engine, on his dime, no reimbursement for nothing until he drags them into court. And even then, he only gets a small portion back, and nothing for his aggravation or ruined vacation.

So you see, you can throw all the statistics around you want, but the actual meat and potatoes is the human factor. That's what matters, and that is what so often VoA (and to a lesser extent all the German brands) seem to fail at.

I have nothing to complain about really, other than the BHW's poor balance shaft design. And even at that, I understand it, I corrected it, I motored on (and have since more than doubled the mileage on that car since then).

Never had a warrantable failure. Never been left sitting. I have also been around Toyotas since the golden days, the late '80s and early '90s. THOSE were good cars, they really were. They've gone downhill since then. I've seen more failed water pumps and alternators and powers steering pumps on 2005+ Toyotas in the last 2 years than I saw on 1985-2000 Toyotas EVER, and there are still a LOT of those older ones on the road. Of course, all of this is public knowledge now, as recall-happy Toyota is trying to pick up the pieces, and I still believe they are a good car and have faith that they'll stay on top of QC. But right now, there are still some dire problems that are coming to fruition often after any of these surveys take place. 2.4L engines with their head bolts vibrating the threads right out of the aluminum block for instance. You won't see that on any survey, because it happens well beyond the scope of them, yet well within the operational range the owners expect.

In the end, it is really what makes you happy. I am at a point in my life where I'd feel lost driving anything BUT a Volkswagen every day. I'm willing to put up with a few niggling things because everything else is just so darn good.

Oilhammer---it is funny you mention the "Memphis" dealership, this is where my father was transferred in 2006. My father really did like his Passat but my mother absolutely hated the experiences she had at the dealership. They were new to the area and did not know of any good independents. If they had remained in Chicagoland area the dealership experience would likely have been less important because they had been taking their cars to a shop on the recommended list here out in West Chicago since the '80's. My father was not turned off by the product, but without knowing a quality independent, he could not justify having my mother put up with the "Memphis" dealership's attitude. As you state above, a Toyota with more problems probably would have been a more pleasant ownership experience for them based solely on the customer service received. I believe when he (my father) is in the market for a new vehicle again that he would likely give another VW a look based on my brother's experience and the fact that I will probably be living down there at that time and would likely be able to take care of any of the nagging issues that may come up. This is thanks to people like yourself who are so helpful and gracious sharing your knowledge and experience. Thanks for this.

ding,ding,ding,ding,ding,ding,ding,ding,......WE have a winner!


Oilhammer said clearly, described what I was trying to describe... The fact is that these surveys are skewed to the moon by the disgruntled buyers/owners and how the automakers deal with problems........

If buyers like me and my friends that are happy with the purchase of their german autos were to take part of these all of those numbers would be quite a bit different...But we don't and I have said why so I stick by my original statement, that these things are nothing more than a beauty contest with the ugly disgruntled owners rigging it because they are the only ones participating in large numbers....

Some these survey takers are never happy with any product, they think all manufacturers owe them something! I know more than a few of these clowns that I refuse to help them with anything because I know how little my help would be appreciated. Many of these people that take every survey that they come across are a nightmare to deal with on anything!

So like was said, your survey makes it look like Toyota is so much better than every other brand when the reality is they are no different! What is different is Toyota spends fortunes on keeping buyers happy so that fact skews these surveys to the point they are less than useless when looking for info on what to buy.....But that part is left out of these surveys because manufacturers look at that money as part of the add budget so they make survey takers leave it out.....


Groups like CR are nothing more than beauty contests that have not one thing to do with reliability! They are rigged by how they are taken, by who precipitates and by how much money manufacturers spend on keeping quiet their owners by spending what ever it takes on repairs to keep their buyers happy & quiet with no regard whatsoever to how reliable the vehicle is!