What happens when the particulate filter is full?

SamIV · Dec 19, 2016

I have 161K on my '10 TDI Sportwagon and the particulate filter is about full. I'm electing the buyback, and received the offer today, and want to proceed as I don't want to replace the very expensive particulate filter,
and then turn the Sportwagon in.
What happens to the ability of the TDI to run when the filter is full? Just get a check engine light? Stop running? The terms of the buyback state that the TDI must drive in under its own power.
Thoughts or experiences? Thanks.

sandmansans · Dec 19, 2016

SamIV said:
I have 161K on my '10 TDI Sportwagon and the particulate filter is about full. I'm electing the buyback, and received the offer today, and want to proceed as I don't want to replace the very expensive particulate filter,
and then turn the Sportwagon in.
What happens to the ability of the TDI to run when the filter is full? Just get a check engine light? Stop running? The terms of the buyback state that the TDI must drive in under its own power.
Thoughts or experiences? Thanks.

Hi Sam

Just out of curiosity how do you know that your particulate filter is full, did you do a vcds scan?

Going off of mileage alone won't necessarily tell the whole story on if the filter is full or not. If I'm not mistaken there was another forum member on here that went over 200k on his original dpf.

Now back to your question, what will happen?

Well it can crack and while this will throw a bunch of codes and reduce performance. The engine will still run.

Now I don't know this to be completely true, I am not basing this statement on facts but more so my opinion. But I would imagine the worse case scenario if the filter got completely full that it could cause either a: enough back pressure to damage valves perhaps?
B: create enough heat to start a fire?

Again that last bit is not based on fact and I would go on to further state that this would be in the exteme scenario. To where your filter was clogged for a while and at a high amount.

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nucklehead · Dec 19, 2016

I wonder if there is some way to inexpensively dump the contents. Like with a 1/2" drill bit? Or a torch? In any case if you're close to your buyback date it should make it that far. If you're going to be a few months or more away from a buyback date I'd park it.

meerschm · Dec 20, 2016

no reason to suspect oil ash filling the dpf until you get around 250,000 miles.

other failures of the dpf have nothing to do with how much ash is inside.

do not fix it if it aint broke.

(a DPF with 161k on it is no where near full)

the places that do clean DPFs (removed from cars and trucks) use heat and compressed air to clean out, and sell the removed ash to chemical companies. the last thing you want to do is dump this stuff anywhere close to where you live.

oilhammer · Dec 20, 2016

Define "full" please. Plenty of these DPFs crack and leak, but I cannot say what one would do if it was unable to regen because I have never seen one like that. Not on a Volkswagen anyway. I have seen one that had a steady diet of the wrong oil since it was new, and finally at 130k miles was having some sort of DTC stored, I forget which one, but the car otherwise ran fine. A new DPF fixed it. And I have heard of one having an issue after it was allowed to sit and idle for a couple days during a power outage so the owner could watch TV, which is obviously something you should never do.

But under normal operation, I do not think you will ever after to worry about the soot load getting to a point that it would need to be replaced. Or at least, not in a short enough period that it is worth being concerned over. Far more likely it will need replacement due to cracking, not filling up.

S2000_guy · Dec 20, 2016

Am I correct that a cracked dpf would not make my '14 JSW TDI undriveable? I ask because I'm evaluating the decision to sell it back in 2018. It's my understanding that if the dpf cracked, it would likely clog an egr filter, causing a "log egr flow" code. But the car could still be driven for a while.

Is this correct? I'm not worried about the ash load since the car would only have about 75k miles on it at buyback.

sandmansans · Dec 20, 2016

S2000_guy said:
Am I correct that a cracked dpf would not make my '14 JSW TDI undriveable? I ask because I'm evaluating the decision to sell it back in 2018. It's my understanding that if the dpf cracked, it would likely clog an egr filter, causing a "log egr flow" code. But the car could still be driven for a while.

Is this correct? I'm not worried about the ash load since the car would only have about 75k miles on it at buyback.

Correct.
You can still drive your car with a cracked dpf. It will cause other components to fail prematurely I would imagine. Egr, 02 sensor comes to mind. But I could be wrong.

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S2000_guy · Dec 20, 2016

Sandmansans,

Thanks for the confirmation.

I've been making my plans based on the assumption that the hpfp is the only expensive catastrophic failure to worry about as I drive my car into 2018. DPF failure would give me some time to schedule a buyback and buy a replacement without any repair cost. Most other common expensive repairs (dual mass flywheel, for example) usually give some advance warning before disabling the car, again leaving some time to replace the car and then sell it back to VW.

SamIV · Dec 20, 2016

As to how full.... my local dealer told me that the filter was "almost" full at a recent service. Two years ago, at 114K, the turbo failed out of town. I towed it to a local dealer, rented a car and drove home. They called and said the turbo needed replacing, the diesel particulate filter was close to full, and it was close to the 120 service. Their estimate was $6250.00. The reality is that you have to remove the DPF in order to reach the turbo, and they apparently decided, what the heck, let's replace that as well even if it really doesn't need to be replaced. I declined their generous offer and had the car towed home. I bought an OEM turbo and had an independent mechanic install it. I've gotten two more years out of the DPF. My only concern is the buyback requirement that the car drive in under its own power.

sandmansans · Dec 20, 2016

S2000_guy said:
Sandmansans,

Thanks for the confirmation.

I've been making my plans based on the assumption that the hpfp is the only expensive catastrophic failure to worry about as I drive my car into 2018. DPF failure would give me some time to schedule a buyback and buy a replacement without any repair cost. Most other common expensive repairs (dual mass flywheel, for example) usually give some advance warning before disabling the car, again leaving some time to replace the car and then sell it back to VW.

Not a problem. While the oe dpf is expensive most of the prices you see folks have quoted are from the stealership. An independent tdi shop would do it for much less.

Also it's not catastrophic as in the case of the hpfp. If the dpf goes, it usually cracks and that's about it. Damage basically contained.

When the hpfp goes..lol well think of those war movies where they yell out "frag out!" That is truly catastrophic.

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sandmansans · Dec 20, 2016

SamIV said:
As to how full.... my local dealer told me that the filter was "almost" full at a recent service. Two years ago, at 114K, the turbo failed out of town. I towed it to a local dealer, rented a car and drove home. They called and said the turbo needed replacing, the diesel particulate filter was close to full, and it was close to the 120 service. Their estimate was $6250.00. The reality is that you have to remove the DPF in order to reach the turbo, and they apparently decided, what the heck, let's replace that as well even if it really doesn't need to be replaced. I declined their generous offer and had the car towed home. I bought an OEM turbo and had an independent mechanic install it. I've gotten two more years out of the DPF. My only concern is the buyback requirement that the car drive in under its own power.

Again the car will drive with a bad dpf. Also, have you ever had the car scanned with vcds? I wouldn't go by anything the dealership says. Have a scan done and that will tell you the life of the dpf. Measure calculated and measured soot. Pressure from the dpf. And ash load.

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meerschm · Dec 20, 2016

sandmansans said:
Again the car will drive with a bad dpf. Also, have you ever had the car scanned with vcds? I wouldn't go by anything the dealership says. Have a scan done and that will tell you the life of the dpf. Measure calculated and measured soot. Pressure from the dpf. And ash load.

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none of those will predict life of the dpf.

sandmansans · Dec 20, 2016

meerschm said:
none of those will predict life of the dpf.

Won't predict life but will give you a better insight as to the health of it, wouldn't you say?

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oilhammer · Dec 21, 2016

Since there is no VAG specified level of "full" that I have found for the DPF who can say what that is?

The ash volume so far seems to go pretty close to mileage, and I have CR cars in here with over 300k miles on them, with the original fully functional DPF, and they have ash loads near the mileage (so a 280k mile car may have 28mL).

I have also replaced a LOT of failed turbochargers on these cars and never once replaced a DPF on one. It does stand to reason that a failed turbo *could* add some ash load to the DPF that would not have otherwise been added, but just how much? Is it 5000 miles worth of driving type of load? Possibly, and if that was the case, then that car at 250k miles may show 30mL instead of 25mL...still does not mean it is "full".

Honestly, fretting over the ash load of your VAG CR engine's DPF is about as useful as fretting over Canada declaring war on the US.

meerschm · Dec 21, 2016

I think you are off on the oil ash values by a factor of ten, but otherwise, I wish there was a like button.

meerschm · Dec 21, 2016

sandmansans said:
Won't predict life but will give you a better insight as to the health of it, wouldn't you say?

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you can gain insight into the proper functioning of the system, and help identify system components which may be not working well, but this requires a few other parameters, and observations over time.

none of these will tell you how long a DPF will last, cracked or otherwise.

oilhammer · Dec 21, 2016

meerschm said:
I think you are off on the oil ash values by a factor of ten, but otherwise, I wish there was a like button.

Yeah, you are probably right, I forget what the exact numbers show. I have not looked at that measuring block in a while. I used to look at them all the time, every time I serviced one, but stopped once I got a reasonably good idea of the trend. I just know it sort of rolls pretty close to the mileage. Higher mileage cars are obviously piling up miles faster and thus are likely being used under conditions that are friendlier to the DPF, so those cars will tend to ride below the mileage a bit, and those cars with lower mileage that may be used more for shorter trips and/or more city driving will tend to ride a bit higher than the mileage. But in either case, it is pretty close. I'll have one in here before the day is through, I think I have a 160k on a '14 coming in, I will check it and see.

gmcjetpilot · Dec 22, 2016

This is reinventing the wheel, sticky thread where people report their ash level.
The thread has almost 600 replies, although is not that active and has drifted.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=324067&highlight=dpf+ash+level

The Ash level is derived based on the computer estimating it, based on mileage
and delta pressure drop before and after. I did a quick analysis of the reported
data, and the ash goes up almost linearly with mileage for most people.

The spread sheet at the start of the thread has not been updated since 2014.
However the average he got was at 87,000miles about 84 ash oil (ml). The
last report was 166,500 miles 210 ml, or 1.26ml per 1000 miles.

I looked at all the reports last year and did calculations and got:
0.98 or ~1ml oil ash load per 1000 miles.

That seems typical for everyone give or take. When you plot
milage to ash load it is pretty linear. Again it is derived and
seems mileage is the main factor the computer uses.

The point there is no ash dip stick so to speak. It is derived. The car will
run fine with the ash level up some level and delta pressure.

What will happen when "full". My theory is you get more frequent Regens
and lower performance. Efficiency with more back pressure will be lower.
I believe you the dash DPF idiot light comes on full time.

Dumping it out? YES, there is a company or two that cuts it open,
cleans it out and welds it back. Taking these things out is a pain, so that
is the expensive part. The DPF is not cheap, but unless you DIY the cost
of labor high. Personally I would replace it with new or delete it.

Other products to clean without removal is tempting. You spray into the DPF.
Then you run the car, blowing it out the tail pipe. I think you inject the foam into the
pressure or EGT probe port. How well does it work? I don't know. There are YT videos.

meerschm · Dec 23, 2016

gmcjetpilot said:
....
The Ash level is derived based on the computer estimating it, based on mileage
and delta pressure drop before and after. ....

Dumping it out? YES, there is a company or two that ....... Taking these things out is a pain, so that
is the expensive part.

QUOTE]

couple points to clarify.

the oil ash volume does increase about a ml per thousand miles, but only does so by values of 7-9 ml. if you look at the reported values, they are discrete. (mine recently went from 189 to 198)

it is not obvious that they use pressure at all in calculation of the values. there seems to be some variability, so some adjustment is made for differing use, but it is far from clear what those adjustments are. until someone dives into the software, we do not really know.

The companies that clean DPFs do not have to cut them apart. they use heat and compressed air to convert any remaining oily/sooty residue to ash and blow it out of the part.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4811559&postcount=22

sandmansans · Dec 23, 2016

meerschm said:
gmcjetpilot said:

....
The Ash level is derived based on the computer estimating it, based on mileage
and delta pressure drop before and after. ....

Dumping it out? YES, there is a company or two that ....... Taking these things out is a pain, so that
is the expensive part.

QUOTE]

couple points to clarify.

the oil ash volume does increase about a ml per thousand miles, but only does so by values of 7-9 ml. if you look at the reported values, they are discrete. (mine recently went from 189 to 198)

it is not obvious that they use pressure at all in calculation of the values. there seems to be some variability, so some adjustment is made for differing use, but it is far from clear what those adjustments are. until someone dives into the software, we do not really know.

The companies that clean DPFs do not have to cut them apart. they use heat and compressed air to convert any remaining oily/sooty residue to ash and blow it out of the part.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4811559&postcount=22

Click to expand...

This seems to be more in line with what I have experienced in the readings.

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Mattyoctavia · Dec 23, 2016

A friend of mine has a 2010 Touran 2.0 tdi cr. His first dpf went beyond vw's recommended replacement at 250,000. Since then he's ran the car on shell v-power only. Hes now on 571,000 and just replaced the dpf again. He only knew the dpf was blocked when the fuel consumption literally doubled one week.

turbobrick240 · Dec 24, 2016

Mattyoctavia said:
A friend of mine has a 2010 Touran 2.0 tdi cr. His first dpf went beyond vw's recommended replacement at 250,000. Since then he's ran the car on shell v-power only. Hes now on 571,000 and just replaced the dpf again. He only knew the dpf was blocked when the fuel consumption literally doubled one week.

Is that miles or kilometers? If miles, 571k on a 2010 has to be some kind of record. Even if kilometers, that's a lot of driving!

Mattyoctavia · Dec 24, 2016

Thats miles. he's a taxi driver, doing around 100,000 a year. The car is still largely original, same transmission, turbo, hpfp etc. the engine unfortunately had to be replaced at 512,000 due to alternator pulley failing, shredding the belt which threw the timing belt off whilst doing around 100mph. The bottom end could possibly have been saved but vw replaced it as they failed to notice the failing clutch pulley even though he had asked the dealer to look into a odd noise from the engine for over 6 months. He's in the dealer for service every 4-6 weeks.
The interesting thing is this car does not get babied, once its warmed up it's driven hard all the time. constantly doing over 100mph on the motorway.

HeyKid55 · Dec 27, 2016

Im relatively new to the TDI world, I have owned many VW's and do most of my own work on them. I bought a 2010 TDI Sportwagen for my wife last Sept. a few weeks before the diesel gate broke open.. I have decided to keep the car and have it fixed. Recently have gotten a P0401 code. Is the "cracked" DPF and actual crack, is this something that I can fix myself or replace the DPF with a new one?

meerschm · Dec 27, 2016

you want to know if your 2010 has a joint in the exhaust between the DPF and the NOX cat (AKA NSC)

2009 and early 2010 had the single part, later ones come with two parts. if you have an early one, you would have to replace not only the DPF, but also the NSC (which it looks like will be replaced with the fix, if our early hints are correct)

you probably want to wait a bit to see what happens with the fix, and what parts it includes.

you cannot fix what is broken inside the DPF.

is a photo I took of a cracked inside of a DPF (with the low pressure egr filter) which CNGVW (Bob Mann) brought to the tdifest in maine a couple years ago.

if it turns out the fix does not include a new DPF for your car, they are listed for sale on some vw parts sites for around or over $900 plus core, shipping and tax. (an X suffix, rebuilt, but mostly new) google up "1K0-254-708-GX"

you could also look for a used one, but would possibly get a cracked one. the replace is kind of a pain, but mostly wrenching. lots of sensors to replace, and it is behind some stuff.

gmcjetpilot · Dec 28, 2016

meerschm said:
couple points to clarify.

the oil ash volume does increase about a ml per thousand miles, but only does so by values of 7-9 ml. if you look at the reported values, they are discrete. (mine recently went from 189 to 198)

it is not obvious that they use pressure at all in calculation of the values. there seems to be some variability, so some adjustment is made for differing use, but it is far from clear what those adjustments are. until someone dives into the software, we do not really know.

The companies that clean DPFs do not have to cut them apart. they use heat and compressed air to convert any remaining oily/sooty residue to ash and blow it out of the part.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4811559&postcount=22

Three points:

1) Good to know it reads in 7-9 ml increments on RossTech cable, but the
average is 1ml per 1000 miles regardless.

2) I am sure there are folks that claim to clean DPF with it assembled. How
effective, I don't have much faith. As you show they can crack internally.
There are companies that cut them open and re-weld (or use to). The
cleaning of the honeycomb structure will be far better, not really a debate.
You can buy your own chemicals or DPF kits, and use a pressure washer
yourself without sending it to a company (shipping to and from). Cost of
new verses cleaning and old one, is not enough to be worth it in my opinion.

3) I plotted out the data and the correlation of oil ash load to mileage, is
excellent. Using "numerical methods" I can write an equation to *estimate*
Ash Oil = 1ml/1000 x miles (very linear)

It makes sense delta pressure might be used. EGT before and after may be
a factor too? Does it look at mass air, torque, fuel flow? I don't know or care.
I am sure mileage adds ash oil like an odometer. I would think delta pressure
is a factor (may be not). It's an estimate value calculated by indirect measurements
(mileage, delta P, delta EGT, full moon). The exact solution or formula is proprietary,
but I am sure it is not that sophisticated.

meerschm · Dec 29, 2016

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/d...ter-dpf-faq-repair-cleaning-and-pictures-tdi/

is a wiki that lets anyone edit. After speaking with the woman who runs dpfregeneration, I added this line:

Vendors who will clean dpf filters with attached cats include www.fsxinc.com and http://www.dpfregeneration.com these folks make sure the ash and soot are disposed of safely

she said then that they do not disassemble, and charge $400. (less than half the cost of a new part)

fsxinc not only cleans DPFs, but sells the equipment to do so.

it might be worth a call to either to see if they have found a way to repair DPFs from a TDI. there is some hint they could, but for the most part, once it is cracked, it is cracked.

if you have all the collected data from the thread, you could open in a spreadsheet, and sort on values to see the common, discrete values the ash value takes on.

I agree that it is almost impossible for us to really know where the figure comes from. it might be possible to find a correlation in the variance of oil ash values from your 1 ml/thousand miles, but this value changes at such a low rate, it seems difficult to guess what the independent variables or algorithm that comes up with the value are.

Also, have not seen any real use for the oil ash value. Entertaining, but not a reliable indicator for anything, nor does the value seem to change anything else (like dpf regeneration duration or frequency)

turbobrick240 · Dec 29, 2016

$400 to partially clean out an old dpf that could crack at any point sounds like a bad investment to me. I agree that the estimated dpf oil ash values are not very informative.

Mattyoctavia · Dec 30, 2016

I removed the dpf from my car and jet washed it through cleaning out the ash.
That certainly got a lot of ash out of it! I done that at 192,000, now at 212,000 and drives perfect, regens at normal intervals around every 300 miles or so like it always has.

meerschm · Dec 30, 2016

Mattyoctavia said:
I removed the dpf from my car and jet washed it through cleaning out the ash.
That certainly got a lot of ash out of it! I done that at 192,000, now at 212,000 and drives perfect, regens at normal intervals around every 300 miles or so like it always has.

the setup for your car is a little different than ours.

when you washed out the DPF, what did you do with the ash that came out?

this is not like the stuff you pull from a fireplace or wood stove.

What happens when the particulate filter is full?

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