The <$100 Lower IC pipe (pancake pipe) upgrade

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
yup, bracket on the left on the pancake pipe bolts up to the frame member. Is your fancy VW painting gone now? :p

-edit- oops, I mean Mn painting ;)
hey now.. no its still shiney and pretty and the stickers stayed too. but i have been busy yelling at my axle and fittings for failing me. little did i know there shoulda been a nut! AGHH...moron...owell. i was freaking out because i need to run Rally X this weekend in Houghton Mi. worried as can be that i was going to wreck the PP(PrettyPipe haha). it did make ungodly awfull noises. screeching and clackity and ugh. didnt think of placing a nut on the threads till i was typing up the last post..in class. they have just always been shouldered and thrashed up from my tdi pp. glad i have the tdi pp grommet still inside, lost the 1.8tpp grommet on the road. grr cant get over the fact i didnt think that before i was so stupid and just set the pipe back up. my threads look unusable, so silly of me!!!
Thanks
 

Richptl

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Location
Apalachin, NY
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI automatic 305,000 miles
update...
RUBS TERRIBLY
what did you guys all do to hold the pancake pipe out of the way of the axle? i am on new suspension, slightly lifted if anything. i went with a straight 2" inplace of the hump connector and trimmed the smic 2.5" fitting about 1/4" to get closer to the smic. the factory turbo outlet pipe is a bit flexxed. when the pancake pipe mounts up to the bolt on the frame it keeps sliding off while driving. i really dont know what else to do now, reset it all 3 times.
Popped a boost pipe first( just didnt tighten enough) second time was rubbing on the clamp, alil on the hump connector(tossed that aside). grabbed a straight 2" silicone fitting in place of the hump. trimmed a 1/4. Lines up well and pulls smoothly.

Is the stock TDI pp mount supposed to have a nut to hold it all up? if thats the case then i have been missing out since i bought the car. and the threads are a bit smashed from the 1.8tpp sliding off. may run a die over the threads and toss a nut and washer on. if not i may have to cut it off and drill and tap so i can make it work. any one else have the nut for the mount?
in class trying to post, sorry if im short and confusing, haha. had a rub issue on the way to class..
The nut holding the pancake pipe up manages thrust in two directions (or three for that matter). When you make a right angle turn with anything flexible there is always thrust. For underground steam mains at colleges it is not uncommon to have concrete thrust restraints that weigh over 100,000 pounds (not a typo) for this reason.

So that bolt and nut is critical. You have a flexible boost hose that pushes against the turbo (that helps seal the turbo outlet) and against the 50 mm pancake pipe inlet. The intercooler end of the pp needs to be pretty rigid so the pp doesn't move around at that end and rub your tire. If the outlet of the pp were straight centered on the stud/nut the thrust would push straight back but since it is offset, there is a net torque at that end. The outlet is turned off center, so the end thrust at the 60 mm hose tends to push the pp towards the frame, but any thrust in line with the pp will tend to rotate the pp towards the tire.

Good luck.
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
I have seen the pp in two spots rubbing my axle.
USE THE NUT!!
i didnt and i wish i did. never had one on it, never crossed my mind. i wondered how all of you guys where so sucesfull! Thank you Richptl for the input.
 

1heavyfoot

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Location
Monterey, CA
TDI
2016 GTI Autobahn DSG
I just did this mod yesterday after having read this complete thread a couple of times. Initial fitment of the 1.8T pancake pipe showed there was more to deal with than just a little difference in angle as once the 2" hump hose is attached to the new pipe it extends further towards the turbo than the original pipe - even after trimming 1/4" off both ends of the hump hose. Consequently, I ended up using a shortened turbo outlet hose and following is how I got it to fit perfectly with zero kinks in the hoses.

- My car has the turbo outlet hose with the metal fitting attaching to the original pancake pipe. This allowed me to use the 2" hump hose (as previously discussed in this thread) to attach that end of the hose to the 1.8T pancake pipe.

- I tweaked the bracket on the new pancake pipe by placing it in a vise and then pulling on the pipe a bit to get it to line up more directly to the turbo.

- I cut the original turbo outlet hose in the middle of its two elbows and in order to eliminate any kinking I ended up cutting about 3/4" off each side. So Ultimately I cut off about 1.5 inches from the middle and this shortened the hose enough to eliminate any kinking.

- Next I rejoined the hose by using a 2.5" length of 1.5" diameter brass plumbing pipe. This is the relatively thin chrome plated pipe you would use for connecting a sink to a drain under your sink. I would have preferred to use something with a lip as seen earlier in this thread to help insure a hose will not slip off, but it is what I had on hand and I suspect it will hold up just fine. I did use some 80 grit sand paper to scuff up the chrome so the hose would have something to grab onto and then made sure the hose interior was very clean before inserting the pipe and fitting two hose clamps to complete the union. On the positive side this type of pipe is quite thin (but solid) and thus should not disturb the flow of air through the hose.

- Cutting the turbo outlet hose also allowed me to re-angle the hose so it would match up well to the hump hose/pancake pipe. I got the proper angle by doing a trial run on the entire set-up and with everything in place I twisted the center union of the turbo outlet hose until everything lined up perfectly with zero kinks.

- The last step was to tighten down all five hose clamps; 1 at the turbo, 2 at center of turbo outlet hose, 1 where turbo outlet hose meets the hump hose and 1 where hump hose meets the 1.8T pancake pipe. I used the existing oem clamp and hose where the pancake pipe meets the IC. I also used a thin film of silicone where the hump hose meets the metal end of the turbo outlet hose - probably would have been okay without it but just to be on the safe side.

Here's what I got from my initial test drive;

- It does seem to spool up quicker and this gives a nice seat of the pants impression.

- Prior to the Mod I had my boost valve set to limit spikes to 22 lbs and after the mod it spiked to 25! I've re-adjusted the valve to again limit the spikes to 22 lbs but it definitely seems to be pushing more air through that new pipe!

Thanks all for your input on this thread!
 

Kingcodez

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
00-Beetle
So what ID pipe do I need to attach to the stock VNT-15 off of a 2000 (no funny clamps IIRC)?

I have the IDParts kit, but my axel rubbed a huge hole in the silicone pipe. Duct tape holds but there's a slight leak still. The replacement hose is $80, and isn't even made for the 15.

I had a hell of a time getting my 'new taped hose' back onto the turbo, and the car was out for a few days while I got a heater hose to fit on the lip of the VNT15 because the old one was too small.

I want a pipe that will directly grab onto the VNT15 outlet, and then connect to either the IDParts kit, or a pancake pipe. My SMIC has a 2.5" inlet/outlet, so I'd like to gradually increase the size as it hits that and keep it as it goes into the intake.

I see numbers like 1.5", 1.375", 1.25", what is the correct OD of the VNT15?

I buy an X-X+1 reducer Elbow, then an x+1 to 2.5" (IDParts) or 2.25" (Pancake) reducer, and then a matching part to get to the IC?

My IDParts pipe is jammed WAY on the metal pipe, which is shoved into the IC. I had to get a washer and put that on the stud that holds the pipe up, then put the pipe's hanger to the right of the washer and bolt it all down. This keeps it slid forward off of the axel, holds pretty good.
 

VWBeamer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Location
GA
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
The best part of this mod is it amplifies the turbo sounds sweeet!!!! or bad if you don't like turbo whistles, barks, and such.
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
The best part of this mod is it amplifies the turbo sounds sweeet!!!! or bad if you don't like turbo whistles, barks, and such.
Im in on that, no its not a jet, no its not a helicopter, no it wont fly to jamaca, yes I can drive there under one full tank. Haha sooo much turbo spool with a free flowing exhaust. Daily questioning about my oem turbo. Keep it up guys. Mine has been holding well. Much better with the retaining bolt secured and fastened.
 

Kingcodez

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
00-Beetle
Im in on that, no its not a jet, no its not a helicopter, no it wont fly to jamaca, yes I can drive there under one full tank. Haha sooo much turbo spool with a free flowing exhaust. Daily questioning about my oem turbo. Keep it up guys. Mine has been holding well. Much better with the retaining bolt secured and fastened.
Hey what size pipe so I need to fit over the VNT15 outlet?
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
the actual turbo outlet i am not sure, i uesd 2" 5ply silicone straight to connect the pancake pipe to the turbo VNT 15 outlet pipe metal fitting. sorry if thats not what your asking, currently inclass and unable to measure haha
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
i want to spool to be the only thing you hear hahaha! working on solid pipe work. changing upper intercooler pipe also.

i need alarger turbo for more
 

Kingcodez

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
00-Beetle
Ok, I know what you mean.
I'm trying to find the size of the turbo outlet so I can just get a 90degree elbow and make my own lower IC pipes. My IDParts pipe has a hole in it and I don't want to pay $80 to replace it.

the actual turbo outlet i am not sure, i uesd 2" 5ply silicone straight to connect the pancake pipe to the turbo VNT 15 outlet pipe metal fitting. sorry if thats not what your asking, currently inclass and unable to measure haha
 

Richptl

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Location
Apalachin, NY
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI automatic 305,000 miles
Ok, I know what you mean.
I'm trying to find the size of the turbo outlet so I can just get a 90degree elbow and make my own lower IC pipes. My IDParts pipe has a hole in it and I don't want to pay $80 to replace it.
I am working on kits for BEW cars which will use a modified SFS Performance THS213 hose set, the S-hose only with the turbo side fitting only to plug into the BEW clip fitting turbo outlet. I can bring in batches of hoses from the UK and sell them for $133 each plus freight, again with the fitting.

I have a couple of people interested in the hose only, no fitting. If there is enough demand I can get a bunch of them S-hose only, probably for $100 each or less. See this link and go to the THS213, the S shaped hose fits on the turbo.

http://www.sfsperformance.co.uk/prod_carkits.asp?make=volkswagen

I'm still waiting for my first one for my car. Takes several weeks to bring them over. If you have a skid plate and side shield I don't see how you can get by without some sort of funky hose to get you to the pancake pipe. Or something home-made with several hoses and elbows, like someone else did recently on this thread.

I'd like to know the size of the turbo outlet on the ALH turbo. Is it 2" or something smaller?
 

HiltonjaceVwTdi

Active member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Sandy, ut
TDI
2000 VW TDI
Just ordered my pancake and reducer and couplers thanks for the post very helpful did u notice more sound from the gli pipe from the stock?
 

VWBeamer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Location
GA
TDI
2004 Jetta Wagon
A lot more, you can really here all the turbo noises well with the window down.
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
so does anyone have a VNT15 lower boost pipe availible for sale? i am in need of that first off the turbo pipe. when i split my VNT15 it sent "shrappnel" through the boost pipe. unless i can repair a 1/8" slice from the turbo wheel grenading. ill look in the classifieds, post a WTB. thanks.
also my 1.8t PP has been working flawlessly since i put that retaining lil nut on. haha made the fit work great!
 

Richptl

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Location
Apalachin, NY
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI automatic 305,000 miles
I have a thread for BEW intercooler and piping upgrade. I did some flow bench testing with some interesting results posted here:


I did flow bench testing last night. Alas I don't like one of the fittings I have on the intercooler outlet, too close to the rear of the headlamp assembly. Here are some interesting readings. My "flow bench" is a shop vac and manometer.

Stock upper pipe only 3" wc
Stock upper pipe plus intercooler 3" wc (entry loss could explain this)
Stock upper + IC + stock pancake pipe 3 1/2" wc
Stock upper + IC + pp + turbo outlet hose 8 " wc

Modified upper pipe 1"
Modified upper plus Godspeed IC 2"
Modified upper + IC + 1.8 T pancake pipe 2 1/2"
Modified upper + IC + 1.8 T PP + SFS hose only 2 3/4"
Modified upper + IC + 1.8 T PP + SFS hose + KermaTDI adapter 4 1/2"
Modified upper + IC + 1.8 T PP + SFS hose + SFS adapter with 28 mm disc 9"

Now for discussion of these readings:

Stock: Even though there is a lot of hate thrown around about the stock pancake pipe, the readings above indicate that the stock turbo outlet hose is where there is the most pressure drop penalty. Also interesting to note that the upper pipe has a fair amount of pressure drop, and the stock intercooler pressure drop is quite low.

Modified: Upper pipe is 2" PVC in and out, low pressure drop. With the Godspeed IC added it goes up by 1", not bad. The 1.8 T pancake pipe and SFS THS213 hose have low pressure drops. What I was most curious about was the turbo fitting. I used the fitting that came with the THS213 hose, and put a disc on the end with 28 mm hole in it to simulate the air coming off the turbo outlet and making a square edge expansion into the hose. Notice the very high pressure drop. The KermaTDI outlet is 28 mm for about an inch, then makes a gradual expansion up to near 2" size. Notice the significantly lower pressure loss when using this fitting. Conclusion: 1.8 T pancake pipe works well, SFS hose works well, Godspeed IC works well, but don't use the SFS kit's turbo outlet connector. Use the more efficient KermaTDI adapter. This result does not surprise me. In the HVAC business we call bad fitting design on fan outlets "system effect". System effect can create major pressure loss and noise in a system.



The above test was for the BEW engine with VNT-17 and stock BEW vs. performance mod. But the point to make to the ALH owners is be careful about the expansion in pipe size coming off the turbo. The air velocity coming off the turbo is very high, and it needs to expand efficiently into a large pipe size. A square edge "dump" into a larger pipe is very inefficient with much turbulence and noise, without the proper "static regain" that can be obtained from a more efficient fitting. Also I was surprised that the small stock BEW plastic pancake pipe didn't have all that much pressure drop.
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
That is some dedication and solid research. i kind of figure larger more flow(rough wording, and simply put). would not have thought a "square/ Dump" would be inefficant. very good usefull information. thank you very much for all of that
 

88.5sami

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Location
ns canada
TDI
2003 jetta
i just ordered a vnt17, with 2inch adapter...... it will be going on with a 1.8pp.. so will i just need a straight 2inch hose to join them or will i need more then that.
 

Richptl

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Location
Apalachin, NY
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI automatic 305,000 miles
i just ordered a vnt17, with 2inch adapter...... it will be going on with a 1.8pp.. so will i just need a straight 2inch hose to join them or will i need more then that.
I see you are getting a VNT-17 but you have an ALH motor. The VNT-17 with smart actuator for the BEW has the turbo outlet with a clip fitting that is further back so an S-hose is needed to get around to the pancake pipe. If you got a VNT-17 designed for the ALH then it may have a hose adapter on it to begin with. However as per my flow bench tests, if there is a 28 mm hole that you can see inside of the hose adapter, then to use that creates the same pressure drop penalty that I documented. I'd like to know more about what your turbo outlet looks like.

Like they say, the VNT-17/22 is "plug-and-play" for the ALH engine whereas the VNT-17 is "plug-and-play" for the BEW. Of course the VNT-17/22 costs several hundred dollars more however.

I've ordered a bunch of SFS THS-213 S hoses and one of those might be just what you need. It is 2" in and 2" out, with a curve designed to get from where the stock BEW outlet is located to the pancake pipe. I'd sell these alone for $100 each plus freight. I'm importing in batches of 10 from the UK to save on shipping and I get a quantity discount.
 

1.9 TDI Awd

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Location
Marquette, Michigan
TDI
2000 TDI Golf 5spd
i just ordered a PD150 VNT17 ALH modified turbo from Rynap, not 100% on what ill need to get the boost over to my 1.8t pp. i did also have compressor wheel shards split into and through my alh stock lower boost pipe(off the turbo) so that is now deemed worthless. hope hes sending me the pipe with...
 

Richptl

Vendor
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Location
Apalachin, NY
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI automatic 305,000 miles
I finally did my upgrade for my own car this past weekend. The hardest part was getting around the rear of the headlight assembly.

I posted a lot of pictures showing the whole process.
 

88.5sami

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Location
ns canada
TDI
2003 jetta
I see you are getting a VNT-17 but you have an ALH motor. The VNT-17 with smart actuator for the BEW has the turbo outlet with a clip fitting that is further back so an S-hose is needed to get around to the pancake pipe. If you got a VNT-17 designed for the ALH then it may have a hose adapter on it to begin with. However as per my flow bench tests, if there is a 28 mm hole that you can see inside of the hose adapter, then to use that creates the same pressure drop penalty that I documented. I'd like to know more about what your turbo outlet looks like.

Like they say, the VNT-17/22 is "plug-and-play" for the ALH engine whereas the VNT-17 is "plug-and-play" for the BEW. Of course the VNT-17/22 costs several hundred dollars more however.

I've ordered a bunch of SFS THS-213 S hoses and one of those might be just what you need. It is 2" in and 2" out, with a curve designed to get from where the stock BEW outlet is located to the pancake pipe. I'd sell these alone for $100 each plus freight. I'm importing in batches of 10 from the UK to save on shipping and I get a quantity discount.



i have the vnt17 for alh from kermatdi... with the 2" adapter there's also points straight out the passenger side not down at the ground looks like a 2" 45deg will be all i need....
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
I just did the pancake pipe mod on my golf this week with a 17/22 turbo and forge SMIC using the ID parts lower adapter hose http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=99&products_id=1604 ....to make this work I took the pancake pipe to my friends exhaust shop and had him expand the inlet of the pancake pipe about 1/4" on his hydraulic pipe bender.....I also had to cut off the PP bracket and reweld it a little lower and a little farther forward, although this angles the bottom of the pipe out toward the passenger side it's still a good fit ....I'll try and post up some pics
 

rrdevos

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Location
Nanaimo, BC
TDI
'82 Westy AAZ TD
I just wanted to point out that this MOD will require some tweeking for a TDI New Beetle ie:cutting/welding to change the angle of the outlet to intercooler.
 
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