Best Diesel Fuel Additive?

Mass. Wine Guy

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I ordered two quarts of Primrose 409 today from AVLube. Nice price, nice people. I can even use it all year round. At 2 oz/ per fillup it should last a while.
 

dieseldorf

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Boundless, I have asked this question on 7 different occasions:

When you drain your water separator, have you ever seen water?

You have yet to repsond with a direct answer.
 

Boundless

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Originally posted by dieseldorf:
Boundless, I have asked this question on 7 different occasions:

When you drain your water separator, have you ever seen water?

You have yet to repsond with a direct answer.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, a little bit, at least I think so. Might have been. Maybe once or twice.

By adding an emusifier to dissolve whole water, and prevent emulsified water from precipitating, what benefit is being provided to the car?
 

Boundless

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Statements such as quoted below from the fuel producers apply to the fuel as it resides in the vehicle, not the petro fuel infrastructure distribution system from the refinery to the pump island. These statements are written towards and for the benefit of the ultimate consumer of the fuel product.

Originally posted by Boundless:
Here, from AMOCO, and we know AMOCO makes some of the best diesel fuel out there:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> * A demulsifier to help shed water and reduce potential corrosion and performance problems caused by wet fuel.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And if you search the other fuel companies, they are doing the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So an emulsifier helps dissolve water and "wet" the fuel. The benefit of wet fuel is?

George, feel free to jump in.....
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by Boundless:
By adding an emusifier to dissolve whole water, and prevent emulsified water from precipitating, what benefit is being provided to the car?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">May I add this?>>

An important component of Power-Master is a special emulsifier that disperses condensed moisture. Condensed water in fuels is a major cause of rust, icing in cold weather and the growth of microorganisms in warm weather. Operation of diesel engines is noticeably improved when corrosion and growth of bacteria are prevented.

I don't know that Primrose claims to dissolve free water. I believe they suggest it works on condensed moisture as noted above.

If the Primrose does have the mechanical ability to dissovle/emulsify free water, then that's a different story.

But, since few of us detect free water since our fuel supply is so dry, I don't know if this is a valid conern.
 

Boundless

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Condensed (or precipitated) moisture is free water. Free water is free water. Whether is was introduced into the tank that way, as free water, or fell out of suspension, it is free water. An emulsifier, or dispersant, doesn't discriminate. It emulsifies free water.

[ January 29, 2003, 07:09: Message edited by: Boundless ]
 

dieseldorf

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I know this is kind of an SP move, but here goes:

What is Proformix™ Fuel?

Chevron announces yet another solution for your business – Proformix™ fuel, a low-emissions diesel alternative.

A simple solution to a complex problem:

In today’s competitive markets, you’re faced with the increased challenges of balancing environmental regulations against operational realities. Of course, you want cleaner air – for your children, your neighbors, your employees, and for yourself. But as a business manager or fleet owner, you also have to measure and track profits.

Proformix™ fuel diesel alternative is a cost-effective aftermarket solution that can satisfy all of these competing demands easily and immediately.


Just add water. It may sound crazy, but ordinary H2O is one of the cornerstones of the solution.


Proformix™ fuel is a “water-in-fuel” diesel blend that utilizes Lubrizol’s PuriNOx™ technology to lower NOx emissions by up to 30% and particulate matter as much as 50% in direct-injection, diesel-powered engines. It’s delivered to the end-user as a homogeneous, white emulsion of diesel fuel, water and chemical additives that can be used immediately, without modifications to existing engines or to most storage equipment.

Water and fuel?

Not only do they mix, but with the PuriNOx™ technology, they actually evolve. High speed processing creates water droplets under one micron in size. These droplets are encapsulated by additives that prevent them from coalescing, making them invisible to the engine and providing tremendous stability to the mixture. The addition of water to fuel increases atomization of the diesel/air charge within the cylinder and lowers peak combustion temperature. The net result of these processes is reduced NOx, particulate matter and other emissions.


Because each droplet of water is surrounded by diesel in Proformix™ fuel, the water does not come into contact with metal surfaces of the storage, fuel handling or engine fuel system. Consequently, these systems operate just as they would with diesel, with respect to corrosion and lubricity. Alternatively, “fuel-in-water” blends take on the characteristics of water. And while it’s true that they do reduce emissions, they do not perform so well with respect to combustion, viscosity or corrosion.


- - courtesy of Chevron
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by Boundless:
[QBUh oh, better check your water separator!!! [/QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have a BOSCH fuel filter incoming..hopefully today. I will decant into a clear glass vessel and we'll have a look.

 

Mass. Wine Guy

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Not that I've ever seen water in my fuel, nor drained my fuel pump either, but...

George Morrison at AVLube told me that Primrose's water emulsion additive binds the water molecules in the fuel and transforms them into a lubricity agent that benefits the engine. Then, I guess those molecules just get burned out with the rest of the fuel.
 

Boundless

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Yes Mr. Dieseldorf, you are indeed pulling a SP.....


If you look further... you will also find something called Aquazol. A similar fuel/water emulsion product being intro'd in Europe I believe.

Keep looking and you will find that a disclaimer follows all that water lovin'. Yeah, they make sure that they have no responsibility or information regarding the impact of water on the fuel system. Yer on yer own!!!!

BTW, the Chevron product is being test marketed. Not a full roll out. Test marketed... as in limit liability?

You see, fuel/water emulsions are very, very, very, very old news. Each time, damage to the fuel system from corrosion or compromising the lubrication was the downfall.

For some reason, they are trying again. Lubrizol claims that they have achieved sub-micron water particle sizes. Maybe that will work this time. It has never worked before and fuel injection systems never lived to tell about it.
 

Boundless

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Originally posted by Mass. Wine Guy:
Not that I've ever seen water in my fuel, nor drained my fuel pump either, but...

George Morrison at AVLube told me that Primrose's water emulsion additive binds the water molecules in the fuel and transforms them into a lubricity agent that benefits the engine. Then, I guess those molecules just get burned out with the rest of the fuel.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HS..... this just keeps getting better.

Oh really?

George, can you provide a link or reference material for that transformation of water into a lubricity agent by the Primrose?

Thanks
 

dieseldorf

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Can’t this entire emulsify vs. demulsify argument be reduced to this:

Is Primrose mechanically capable of encapsulating emulsified water thereby permitting it to pass more safely thru the injection system?
 

Boundless

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Originally posted by dieseldorf:
Can?t this entire emulsify vs. demulsify argument be reduced to this:

Is Primrose mechanically capable of encapsulating emulsified water thereby permitting it to pass more safely thru the injection system?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps you want to rephrase that as:

"Is Primrose mechanically capable of encapsulating emulsified water thereby permitting it to pass less harmfully thru the injection system?"

Dieseldorf, these dispersants help make the water problem seemingly dissappear by dissolving the water and running it through your fuel system where it isn't supposed to go.

The only way the passing of water through a fuel system can be made "more safe" or "less harmful" is by reducing the amount of water passed. Dispersing or emulsifying increases the water that is put through the pump & injectors.
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by Boundless:
Dieseldorf, these dispersants help make the water problem seemingly dissappear by dissolving the water and running it through your fuel system where it isn't supposed to go.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tell me what's happening to emulsified water in the system. Do you believe it's passing thru the engine or do you believe it's being trapped in the "water separator"?

I contend it is passing thru the engine.
 

Boundless

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Originally posted by dieseldorf:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Boundless:
Dieseldorf, these dispersants help make the water problem seemingly dissappear by dissolving the water and running it through your fuel system where it isn't supposed to go.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tell me what's happening to emulsified water in the system. Do you believe it's passing thru the engine or do you believe it's being trapped in the "water separator"?

I contend it is passing thru the engine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Both.

If the emulsified water droplets are larger than the filter rating, the filter will take the water out. ie: 10µ water droplets trying to go through a 2µ rated filter/sep.

And remember, in order for water to pass through the engine, it must pass through the fuel injection pump and injectors. Where water in every form is not welcome.

Whether you contend that water is passing through the engine is not even an issue. We all know that is happening with the suspended water, and more so when the free water is converted to suspended by the dispersants/emulsifiers and carried through the fuel system.

The issue is why emulsify any free water that might be present, and why prevent suspended water from precipitating out where it can be prevented from going to the pump, but instead send all that water to the pump, in the event the water is present?
 

Mass. Wine Guy

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Boundless, you're tenacious. I'll give you that much. And because I am, too, I won't call you annoying.

But I will go the extra mile and ask Primrose for an answer.

Originally posted by Boundless:
Perhaps you want to rephrase that as:

"Is Primrose mechanically capable of encapsulating emulsified water thereby permitting it to pass less harmfully thru the injection system?"

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 

dieseldorf

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Originally posted by Boundless:
Both.

Whether you contend that water is passing through the engine is not even an issue. We all know that is happening with the suspended water, and more so when the free water is converted to suspended by the dispersants/emulsifiers and carried through the fuel system.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahh-Haaa! AAAAAAHHH-HAAAAAAAAAAA!!

Thank you. I was hoping (praying) that would be your response.
I think we are finally making progress.


Now, if my free water content is 0, and I am only confronted by tiny amounts of emulsified water which are going thru the engine one way or another, why in the heck would I NOT want to use a product that will assist and/or aid the passing of the water?

Under these conditions, it would appear an emulsifer could only help by provding a degree of protection. How can that be bad?

Composition: The cetane improver in Power-Master consists of special nitrates which are pro-oxidants which speed up the oxidative process of fuels during combustion, giving more power and improved mileage. Power-Master provides greatly increases ignition efficiency with all diesel fuels.

In addition, Power-Master will prevent gum and sludge formation. Corrosion is prevented by an inhibitor which produces a protective non-deposit-forming film on metal surfaces in the fuel system and which neutralizes corrosive acids formed during combustion.

An important component of Power-Master is a special emulsifier that disperses condensed moisture. Condensed water in fuels is a major cause of rust, icing in cold weather and the growth of microorganisms in warm weather. Operation of diesel engines is noticeably improved when corrosion and growth of bacteria are prevented.
 

dieseldorf

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thanks again. We can discuss this over a pint on Sunday. You guys have convinced me, thru these discussions, that a water emulifying fuel additive is perfect for my dry fuel! I'll just have to stay away from that BD.
 

dieseldorf

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MWG, we've had various fuels tested and the bioDiesel is showing up very wet: +700ppm.


I am not sure I could characterize as a "bio disaster" but it sure isn't good news.
 

Mass. Wine Guy

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I like and support the theory behind biodiesel, but I don't like som eof the ways it behaves. Winter seems probelmatic for this fuel, and now it appears that it loves water. I'm sticking with fossil diesel.

Originally posted by dieseldorf:
MWG, we've had various fuels tested and the bioDiesel is showing up very wet: +700ppm.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 

loggin

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Originally posted by Mass. Wine Guy:
[QB]I like and support the theory behind biodiesel, but I don't like som eof the ways it behaves. Winter seems probelmatic for this fuel, and now it appears that it loves water. I'm sticking with fossil diesel.
QB]
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This diesel loves water too!



[ January 29, 2003, 17:13: Message edited by: loggin ]
 

brucep

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It seems that the debate of emulsify/demylsify will go on.....

RELATED QUESTION:
Do any of you have any 'neat tricks' to quickly and reliably MEASURE the small amounts of whatever fuel-additive you choose to use in a tankful?

I am thinking of somthing that will be easy for my wife to do when she fills up the tank. If I could have it pre-measured, it would help.

Does anyone divvy up the original containers into smaller 4-oz 'shots' that can be quickly added at fillup-time? How do you do this? Any suggestions from anyone?
 

Boundless

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MWG,

NH Mike et al have done wonders in getting high percentage BD to work this winter. Granted, some steps are far above the typical user, but it works. What he did/learned with additives & BD seems to be sufficient for even the casual user to use BD with pretty good confidence in winter.
 

mobe

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Originally posted by brucep:
RELATED QUESTION:
Do any of you have any 'neat tricks' to quickly and reliably MEASURE the small amounts of whatever fuel-additive you choose to use in a tankful?

I am thinking of somthing that will be easy for my wife to do when she fills up the tank. If I could have it pre-measured, it would help.

Any suggestions from anyone?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I plan (hope to purchase this weekend) on using a 60cc syringe which is 2oz. I work at a Vet Hospital so I have a ready supply. You could ask your local Vet for one. Most Vets keep cleaned used ones at hand. I'm also interested in hearing what others use. I'm a little worried that the additive may weaken and/or distort the syringe walls.
 

dj

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Originally posted by brucep:
It seems that the debate of emulsify/demylsify will go on.....

RELATED QUESTION:
Do any of you have any 'neat tricks' to quickly and reliably MEASURE the small amounts of whatever fuel-additive you choose to use in a tankful?

I am thinking of somthing that will be easy for my wife to do when she fills up the tank. If I could have it pre-measured, it would help.

Does anyone divvy up the original containers into smaller 4-oz 'shots' that can be quickly added at fillup-time? How do you do this? Any suggestions from anyone?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I measure out, or divvy up, my additives into plastic 16oz soda bottles. I carry, hmmm, I think 10 of these bottles in my trunk in a larger plastic container in order to keep everything clean. The additive package I am using ends up being 12 oz in total additives I put in each tank of fuel (close enough to 0.1 gallon so my milage calculation is easy). At this point in time, I think I've filled these same bottles 4 times, maybe 5, I don't recall. After the first fill, the plastic seal on the underside of the cap distorted a small amount but has not failed yet, they still seal well. The botles themselves show no sign of deterioration.

The shape is very convenient to use at fill-up, the bottle neck fits well into the fill tube of the car. 10 (or was that 12?) bottles lasts quite a length of time so I only have to do the divving up once in a great while. I find it very simple and clean to use.

I have a funnel with a valve at the bottom and the funnel has measurement marks on it. I close the valve, and add each additive into the funnel at the prescribed amount, then put it in the bottle to be filled and open the valve. I leave the bottles in the plastic container I use in the trunk as it gives the bottles good stability while filling. I found that out the hard way. The domino effect on filled but as yet un-capped bottles is wasteful to say the least..

Doing this I wear rubber (really now, they are latex) gloves and unless I do something stupid I remain fairly clean throughout that process also.

dj
 
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