News about BigBore PDE

chapelhill

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Location
Scotland
TDI
03 Ibiza pd13- 2260vk Turbo etc.., Merc E280cdi
Fabian.
Any ideas of when 9mm versions are likely to start shipping. I understand these are late development parts so dates are only approximate and there may yet be further problems, but any update would be most welcome. I have been waiting since before Christmas, but as I believe these are the right product I will wait until they are ready. Waiting is much easier now that I am on old fart!
I have had to change my timing belt which I was hoping to do after the new injectors (so it would be the same as the initial dyno I had done just before christmas) because I have done too many miles.
Regards
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Got normally a week of holiday next week so hopefully I can make some time free =)
 

Fab176

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Location
Minden, Germany
TDI
Golf Mk4 4motion PD+++
The 9mm plungers have been ordered and we are waiting for them to arrive. They are manufactured by a specialized company and the assembly and modification of the PD body are done by my friend. Unfortunately, I can't tell a date. I am waiting for the "big ones" to arrive, too - I want them for my engine as well ;)

I am still waiting for my vendor registration to proceed. I already got a PM about it, but my status hasn't changed yet. I don't have a good feeling posting prices etc. as long as I don't have that "vendor" status. However, prices are set for both 8.5mm and 9mm variants and 8V plus 16V PDE.

Fabian
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I thought we we waiting on the larger Nozzles? I've got 4 sets on order as well as a 16v set!
 

Fab176

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Location
Minden, Germany
TDI
Golf Mk4 4motion PD+++
I know that a nozzle delivery is still pending; this applies to 16V nozzles AFAIK and some 8V nozzles (only some sizes, but I don't know which ones).
 

devonutopia

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Location
Devon, U.K
TDI
PD300 Skoda Fabia
Well I have "sold" a set of four stock PD130 injector units to a chap on here, but now wondering whether to retain them for some kind of injector work for my own gains instead....
 

borachris

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Location
UK-Billingham
TDI
Bora ASZ 130PD, Corrado 150PD in production
Well I have "sold" a set of four stock PD130 injector units to a chap on here, but now wondering whether to retain them for some kind of injector work for my own gains instead....
I'll remember never to "buy" anything from you then!
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
@m1ketdi: the tolerances for boring / honing the PDE body are the same as for the plungers: 1/10000 mm. My friend who does that bought a special device (I am not sure if it is a CNC mill) that is capable of working that precisely. He also bought special tools for measuring such small tolerances, too. Overall, he spent around 10k Euros for all that. But he has a masters degree in CNC machining etc., so he has use for such equipment. If the names and brands of the tools are of interest, I can ask him. The new plungers are coated, of course. I will ask about the EXACT type tonight.
I would like to know brands of eqiupment who are capable of 1/10000mm accuracy for only 10k€.....especially when it a machining device AND measuring equipment.....
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
would't be 1µm, 1/1 000 000 of a m? instead of 1/100 000 of a mm? would be quite exotic would it be 1/100 of a µm :p
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
1 mikron is a 1/1000mm, teh above stated 1/10000 is a tenth of 1 mikron.

Even 1/1000mm can not be measured accurate by hand, it will need a special measuring rig and a constant climatic measuring room @ 20degrees celcius to ensure steady quality.

Same for a machining device capable of those little units, it will also take a very accurate machining device and constant climate room.

Therefore I would like to know the name of suppliers for such instruments for only 10k€....
 

m1ketdi

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Leam
TDI
Leon BKD
Even 1/1000mm can not be measured accurate by hand, it will need a special measuring rig and a constant climatic measuring room @ 20degrees celcius to ensure steady quality.
I disagree with this, one of the big commercial injector manufacturers is using a multi stage honing process with measurement after every stage. They are not doing this in a climatic measuring room and are acheiving very high reliability and first time pass rates. Not measured by hand of course.
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
Well, as I work in a iso9001 certified company, we have to ensure constant temperature in all measuring rooms and backup all taken measurements with measuring protocols....
 

chapelhill

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Location
Scotland
TDI
03 Ibiza pd13- 2260vk Turbo etc.., Merc E280cdi
Fabian.
Any ideas of when 9mm versions are likely to start shipping. I understand these are late development parts so dates are only approximate and there may yet be further problems, but any update would be most welcome.
Bump for an update.
Another month has gone by and I am waiting patiently.
 

Fab176

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Location
Minden, Germany
TDI
Golf Mk4 4motion PD+++
Sorry for the late reply, but I somehow damaged my ischiatic nerve a while ago and had a lot of fun standing, sitting, walking...

I must admit that I wrote the wrong accuracy in an earlier post; it is actually 1/1000mm (I was told).

@chapelhill: I'll pm you.

Fabian
 

chapelhill

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Location
Scotland
TDI
03 Ibiza pd13- 2260vk Turbo etc.., Merc E280cdi
I don't want to get into a long protracted discussion on this except if someone has some insight on technical discussion about the ecu control, but I tested some 9mm 850ccm nozzles, but I had issues with being able to control fuel injected after drivers wish is removed, ie the engine rpm stayed above 4000 rpm for up to a couple of seconds after a power run with no throttle. The rpm then droped. I did also have a bit of run on where I believed I may have blown the engine and turned the engine of with the key and the rpm took a couple of seconds before it dropped, but the engine was fine. Understandably I only tested this once by accident.

This was beyond my knowledge of how to fix, so I returned the nozzles to the manufacturer who is currently doing some further tests.

As I understand a modification has been made to the injectors such that the key off run on no longer occurrs. There still remains the issue of the run on under ecu control which the manufacturer is working with his tuner and has made some progress.

Whilst testing the nozzles I did not manage to get an imporvement in power using the same comparitive boost as with standard nozzles, BUT, I am not sure if this was being impacted by what was causing the key off run on issue which may now be resolved, or beacuse we need significantly different soi timing than with the standard duration/SOI combinations used. I have a hunch that the timing wants retarding.

The short comparitive tests I ran showed the extra fuel being injected as between 35% and 50% extra. I am not sure how that relates to Bosio R783 in extra fuel flow.

I plan to get another set back, but i am testing something else at the moment which has an impact on my decision of which version would be best, but hopefully that will be finalised in a week or so.

The technical bit:
I don't have as much understanding as some others on all the ecu maps. The big bore nozzles will inject more during the pre-injection stroke. What is not clear to me is how the duration maps on the ecu relate to the solenoid activation to commence the whole injection cycle as there are negative duration values for small quantities particularly at high rpm. My understanding of this is that the duration maps therefore exclude the extra bit added on to start the whole injection cycle. There is also a map which controls how fast the injection quantities are allowed to change, which have some peculiar values at high rpm, it may be they are designed like that to prevent the rpm form dropping too quickly during gearshifts etc.

I don't think it takes much fuel to keep the motor spinning at 4000rpm if there is no load, and it could be the pre-injection quantity is of this order and the maps need adjusting to deal with it.

Regards
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
From what I witnessed there where (and partly still are) loads of problems with the manufacturer of these nozzles. Not only technical wise but also business wise, delaying delivery again and again over more than half a year and finally delaying the refund of already made payments again and again, while blackmailing and argueing with the buyer.
The last statement I came to hand was "I never want to deal with that guy again"

This seems not to be a reputable source for any kind of business, so my recommedation is clearly a : Buyers, be aware of who you are dealing with.

I know the above mentioned buyer is here on tdiclub, maybe one day, when his problems with this manufacturer are solved completly (which they are not at the moment) he will chime in and tell the whole story.
I personally would highly appreciate this, just to warn other users for what can happen if you trust and get in business with the wrong people....

Regards, Alex
 
Last edited:

Fab176

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Location
Minden, Germany
TDI
Golf Mk4 4motion PD+++
Just for clarification: It is not me - I am not involved in the entire thing at all, although originally the manufacturer of the BigBore PDEs planned to do so. As Alex said, there are obviously some issues of different nature; that particular guy from TDIClub who is suffering from that spoke to me and I tried to help as good as I can.

Anyway, overall it is relatively annoying. I am in the "lucky" position that my engine build is delayed anyway, so I don't have a problem with my BB PDE not being ready. But there are certainly other guys who would like to have the stuff ready to install.

From what I heard: the smaller 8.5mm BB PDEs seem to run well; there seems to be an issue with the 9mm BB PDEs, which -could- be fixed ECU-wise. As I am not a software wizard, I can't actually say how. But the 9mm BB PDEs obviously caused the engine not to stick at idle rpms when desired, just to name one issue.

I will continue reporting about my own build and the BB PDEs that will HOPEFULLY be installed one time. But I will certainly use my build thread for that. And the other thing is that due to private and job-related changes I am not interested in doing any commercial business with BB PDEs etc. I will keep selling used parts from my stock and I can ensure that those parts I sell are OK - those who bought stuff from certainly can confirm that.

Greetz,

Fabian
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
What Alex is saying is true, as much as I like the idea of these BigBore injectors and would love them to work properly, they don’t and IMO won’t!

I don’t want to dive into too many details as I’m a better person than the BigBore seller but he caused me lots of problems that were totally out of order and not good business practice. I was the customer and I was treated like a criminal. I've wasted at least 9 months of my time waiting/emailing/testing and I’m out of pocket by at least £1000.

You only have to log onto the German speaking TDi forums and see the abuse that this guy dishes out for no reason other than personal gain to see he is not fit to run a business.

I don’t want a debate about him any more as I’ve wasted enough time already and I know exactly what he would say anyway.

Tread carefully is the moral of this story I guess.
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
You wont find much about him in common VAG tdi related forums, as he is almost unknown, except his "home" forum where he is followed by his a*slicking underdogs, so not much critics to find there.
People who dare to ask critical questions may just be banned of "his" forum ( like me) . Additional I instantly received email from him, that he will come to visit me and make an end to my "nice live" if i ever dare again to be critical.
So you see what kind of person this is....

Sorry for your problems Ryan, O think we both would be happier now if you would have listened to me in the beginning, but on the other hand i truly hoped his behaviour was only because his issues with me personally and everything would run fine with you.... :-((((

Regards, Alex
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
Sorry for your problems Ryan, O think we both would be happier now if you would have listened to me in the beginning, but on the other hand i truly hoped his behaviour was only because his issues with me personally and everything would run fine with you.... :-((((
We live and learn Alex, we live and learn!

Just to confirm, my problems are not with Fabian, who has done his best to help resolve the situation with the seller.

Thanks

Ryan
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
We live and learn Alex, we live and learn!


Ryan
So true, I have learned to stay away from tuning business and just to help out sometimes, if the situation allows it.

In this business there are so little honest people like you Ryan, its a shame to see you getting fooled by others....
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
This was beyond my knowledge of how to fix, so I returned the nozzles to the manufacturer who is currently doing some further tests.
Chapelhill, just for my (and maybe others) understanding:

During the process of making a decision, ordering and finaly mounting these injectors, have you ever been informed about the fact that you are going to be the genuine pig for those 9mm elements? Or have you been left in the beleiving that you receive a tried and tested product?

Regards, Alex
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
Alex,

Initially we were just going for back to back tests against stock injectors. After delivery (of 4 sets) i was informed in a roundabout way that these had never been in a car so would need to be tested. Not a problem if you have 1 set and got them for a cheaper price or cost but no good with £4k worth!

I've never recieved my cores back, i owed him 1 set anyway so 3 sets of injectors have been lost + Bank Charges + shipping costs and a heafty chunk from the exchange rate both ways.
 

majesty78

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Location
Austria/ Europe
TDI
Skoda Superb 3T5 CFFB
Unbelievable!

So how do you manage the "loss" of 3 sets of injectors with the customers which gave them to you?
If you would have to buy 3 new sets to refund your customers you're in a 6000€ price range....???
 

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
I bought the injectors so i could swap them with my customers and keep a steady stock here, one set was a customers but they have been replaced.

He joked that they were worth 50/euros a set maximum when i asked for £200/set so we could draw a line under all this for good.

Ryan
 
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