NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

aja8888

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Piplelines do not require fuel to meet lubricity standards to be transported (cetane of the fuel must be certified to meet the ASTM standards before it enters the pipeline). The lubricity of the "raw" pipeline fuel is likely in the 650+ micron wear scar range. Thus, it appears we must "trust" the distribution terminal to add the proper amount of lubricity enhancing agent to get the wear scar of "raw" fuel down to 520 microns or better before the fuel is loaded on the truck.

Again what good is a standard if there is not independent testing of the fuel to check compliance with such a critical standard as lubricity at the retail level. Another reason for us CR TDI owners (besides the FIEM position statement on lubricity) to enhance the lubricity of the fuel we buy.
I work in the oil & gas/fuels business, now for 30 years. I'll repeat what I have posted here about a dozen times which almost no one reads, or cares to believe:

Pipelines transport fuel, that's all. Pipeline interface material (transmix: i.e. gasoline/D2 interface) is taken out of the line for reprocessing. Incoming pipeline fuel to the terminal is tested on-site in a lab.

Refineries make fuel to a spec. (that's all, unless they make chemicals also).

Terminals have computer controlled lubricity additive equipment to blend in third party lubricity additive formulation at the loading rack. Many fuel distributors have to have fuels tested for meeting specs. It varies by state and some majors do their own retail product testing as per their QA/QC procedures.

Independent tanker truck drivers cause the most issues with cross contamination as their trucks are not checked (compartments) for cleanliness or residual fuels. They can pick up RUG, PUG, and D2 in the same tanker.

Retail stations make mistakes with USTs by not watching tanker truck drivers more closely.
 
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Plus 3 Golfer

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aja8888, I have read what you have said before and understand the process (and I spent my entire 35 year working career in the energy industry before retiring).

I will repeat:

AZ does not test diesel fuel for lubricity at the distribution terminal nor at the retail pumps. In AZ, there is no independent third party ensuring compliance of lubricity standards at the retail pump.

The reasons why the fuel may not meet lubricity standards at the pump is not material to the consumer. We all know that sometimes "bad" products do reach consumers despite the best practices in the quality control plan / procedures of anyone that is in the supply chain. I doubt diesel fuel is any different.:D

As I spent the last part of my career as the chief corporate risk officer, I will always attempt to mitigate risk to the extent practicable. Even though the risk of getting poor lubricity fuel may be very small (perhaps like the 0.2% as in the HPFP failure rate of 2009 TDIs in the NHTSA), one tank can apparently have catistrophic consequences on CR TDIs. I will add lubricity agents (in my case one quart of B99) per fillup, despite the quality control at the distribution terminal and despite the fuel marketers like CountryMark, or the Chevrons et al in CA that some posters claim target lubrictiy well under the 520 micron wear scar level.
 

eddif

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I work in the oil & gas/fuels business, now for 30 years. I'll repeat what I have posted here about a dozen times which almost no one reads, or cares to believe:

Pipelines transport fuel, that's all. Pipeline interface material (transmix: i.e. gasoline/D2 interface) is taken out of the line for reprocessing. Incoming pipeline fuel to the terminal is tested on-site in a lab.

Refineries make fuel to a spec. (that's all, unless they make chemicals also).

Terminals have computer controlled lubricity additive equipment to blend in third party lubricity additive formulation at the loading rack. Many fuel distributors have to have fuels tested for meeting specs. It varies by state and some majors do their own retail product testing as per their QA/QC procedures.

Independent tanker truck drivers cause the most issues with cross contamination as their trucks are not checked (compartments) for cleanliness or residual fuels. They can pick up RUG, PUG, and D2 in the same tanker.

Retail stations make mistakes with USTs by not watching tanker truck drivers more closely.
I have a few questions to ask a person who knows:

1..How much would 5 US gallons of gasoline left in a 1000 US gallon compartment change 520 scar rated fuel?
2..What would the new scar rating be?
3..Will the old oil scar testing machines even come close to testing diesel fuel? Or ... Who can test the scar length rating of diesel?

It is time we quit guessing and establish some guidelines. I understand that 5 gallons might squeak through and 7 gallons be disaster, but we have got to start somewhere. IMHO.

eddif
 

dweisel

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dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Its cost prohibited for us to test fuel. I checked with one lab and a lubricity test was over $600.00. Complete ASTM test ran over $1,700.00. Plus the test isn't going to prove anything other than the specs of the specific fuel load tested. Next load may be entirely different. As far as fuel goes, you just buy it and take your chances with a CR. Fuel specs didn't matter much with previous engines. They might run a little better or worse with different fuels,but it didn't destroy the fuel system.
 

aja8888

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aja8888, I have read what you have said before and understand the process (and I spent my entire 35 year working career in the energy industry before retiring).

Thanks for the history, that was not known by me or possibly others here.;)

As I spent the last part of my career as the chief corporate risk officer, I will always attempt to mitigate risk to the extent practicable. Even though the risk of getting poor lubricity fuel may be very small (perhaps like the 0.2% as in the HPFP failure rate of 2009 TDIs in the NHTSA), one tank can apparently have catistrophic consequences on CR TDIs. I will add lubricity agents (in my case one quart of B99) per fillup,

I'm with you on this practice, even though I do not own an 09 - 11 CRD.;)

despite the quality control at the distribution terminal and despite the fuel marketers like CountryMark, or the Chevrons et al in CA that some posters claim target lubrictiy well under the 520 micron wear scar level.
CountryMark is one of my clients in Indiana and a real exception in the oil patch as for as a refiner, and now producer of crude with over a 1,000 wells purchased last year and a new drilling program.
 

aja8888

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I have a few questions to ask a person who knows:

1..How much would 5 US gallons of gasoline left in a 1000 US gallon compartment change 520 scar rated fuel?
2..What would the new scar rating be?
3..Will the old oil scar testing machines even come close to testing diesel fuel? Or ... Who can test the scar length rating of diesel?

It is time we quit guessing and establish some guidelines. I understand that 5 gallons might squeak through and 7 gallons be disaster, but we have got to start somewhere. IMHO.

eddif
I am not qualified to answer your three questions above.
 

Derrel H Green

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An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Understand and Do Not Worry

These threads are starting to make me paranoid :( I was soo happy with my 2011 golf tdi and joined this forum but now feel as of it's going to die right after the warranty expires !!!! I bought a tdi as a car that could take a long commute and last many years and miles . . .
:)

Relax! No need to hit the panic button. :p

However, read study and understand such topics as:

http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

Learn why it may be important for you to add some good additives(s).

Many here do, myself included, to be sure that the supposedly good quality
D2 fuel that is purchased more than meets the lubricating ability required
using a device called a “High Frequency Reciprocating Rig” or HFRR.

How do we know what the HFRR rating really is for the D2 we purchase?
That's why I always add one liter of biodiesel and approximately four (4) ounces of Opti-Lube XPD
to each full tank in my JSW. 18 months in use with 37K miles now and running like a
fine watch and getting better with each additional mile.

Keep the faith, use an additive and enjoy your fine new car.
Don't worry, as it seems that the later models such as yours are not having as
many HPFP problems as did the earlier or first (2009s) CR TDI models.

:D

D
 

Softrockrenegade

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Derrel, thanks for the recommendation !! When you say you add a liter or bio is that b100 or a lower blend ? And also in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?

Thanks ,
Ryan
 

tcp_ip_dude

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Derrel, thanks for the recommendation !! When you say you add a liter or bio is that b100 or a lower blend ? And also in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?

Thanks ,
Ryan
1L or 1qt of B100 to a tank of fresh D2 produces ~B2, VW approves up to B5 (stated in your owners manual), so you're good.
 

Softrockrenegade

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1L or 1qt of B100 to a tank of fresh D2 produces ~B2, VW approves up to B5 (stated in your owners manual), so you're good.
I read that but I was more specifically asking about the lubricating additive :)
 

tcp_ip_dude

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I read that but I was more specifically asking about the lubricating additive :)
B2 is the best lubricity additive you can get, which is why so many of us with CR engines use it; I mail order 5gal of B100 from www.hyperfuels.com just for that purpose (can't get pump bio where I live.) I also add PS for water management, even though it also improves lubricity. :D
 
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jbright

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CountryMark is one of my clients in Indiana and a real exception in the oil patch as for as a refiner, and now producer of crude with over a 1,000 wells purchased last year and a new drilling program.
I've been using CountryMark Premium-R since learning about the HPFP issue (and I did pay attention when you said you knew the guys that started the company and they were doing good things). I used to drive by one of their stations way out in the boondocks but never knew what they were. That's where I got my first tank of B-2 in 2009. I went in and talked to the owner and he explained lubricity to me. I must admit, however, as a proud 6th generation Hoosier, I'm surprised that the company is in Indiana. We in this state aren't known for doing things ahead of the curve, so to speak. In fact, Hoosiers seem to be some of the last folks to take up the newfangled, only after watching safely from a distance while others do the beta-testing. If you saw the station where i buy my diesel (I drive 20 miles outside of Indy to a farm town) you would never guess they were selling high grade fuel. It's very dumpy looking but I've noticed all the municipal and county vehicles, both diesel and gas, fuel up there. From what I was told, each station owner has the option of having bio added to his Premium-R (which is already less than 460 wear scar). Although it's not listed on the pump, the diesel I buy is now 5%, up from 2% last year. The owner told me that with the B-5, CountryMark checks his tank for water gratis on a regular basis. But, believe me, this stuff ain't cheap. If my pump shreds anyway I'm going to really have to eat crow.
 
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tditom

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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
...in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?

Thanks ,
Ryan
Ask yourself:
Do they mean using additives will void the warranty, or are they making a general statement to cover themselves because of 'snake oil' additives that may do more harm than good?
Remember that they do have wording allowing up to 5% biodiesel in the manual and on the fuel cap. 5% biodiesel is an additive by any definition.
 

JSWTDI09

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... And also in my owners manual it recomends no additives , will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty ?
This is really two questions:
1) VW recommends no additives. This is rather imprecise wording. Do they mean that they recommend that you use no additives at all, or do they mean that they recommend no specific additive? Almost all diesel fuel (except the cheapest truck stop "rot-gut") contains additives. The retailers add their own additive packages at the terminal. How is VW (or anybody else) going to tell what additive was added by the retailer and what was added by you? I suspect that VW will not recommend any specific additive is because they do not want to test hundreds of additives to see which ones are safe. Also, the additive companies are not willing to pay VW for an endorsement. Their non-recommendation is really more of a legal CYA than a ban on additive usage.

2) voiding warranty: As stated above how will VW prove what additives were added by you and which by the oil companies? Fuel additive chemistry is pretty well known and most additive companies use pretty much the same ingredients, perhaps in differing amounts, but it's not rocket science. Also in the US we have a law that states that the dealer must prove that some aftermarket part or additive caused the failure in order to void the warranty. Therefore voided warranties should not be an issue.

Have Fun!

Don
 

Thunderstruck

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A no additives clause from VW would imply you must use untreated fuel. If the terminal puts additive in, there goes the warranty.
 

Derrel H Green

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Suggestions

Derrel, thanks for the recommendation! When you say you add a liter of bio,
is that B100 or a lower blend?
And also in my owners manual, it recomends no additives.
Will using one such as your recommendation void the factory warrenty? [No!]

Thanks, Ryan
:)

You are most welcome. :p

All comments be everyone above are good, and are to be taken seriously!

I use one (1) liter of B99 (Biodiesel available from Downs, a local fuel distributor
in Corona CA about 32 miles away from where I live in Murrieta.
Besides their B99 pump, they also have two other pumps, B10 and B20.
I have a good friend who is regularly pumping full tanks of B10 and his sedan is running
rather well to be sure. He says that Indiana is mxing their D2 to produce B11 at
all stations.

Study that Spicer report and draw your own conclusions.
But be sure to use some additive, any additive for good insurance.
Try Opti-Lube XPD and see if your mileage doesn't improve just a little bit,
and see if you don't think your motor runs better and smoother?
In your area, you'll most likely have to send away for Opti-Lube.

:D

D
 

kjclow

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Somewhere back in this thread was an additive supplier that listed a VW TSB stating that they had an improved additve. Perhaps if I have time, I'll find it.

Found it - Stanadyne lists this:
VW Service bulletin recommendation.​
VW p/n ZVW 340 001 is SAC 32938
Lubricity Formula
 
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ZiggyTheHamster

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Somewhere back in this thread was an additive supplier that listed a VW TSB stating that they had an improved additve. Perhaps if I have time, I'll find it.

Found it - Stanadyne lists this:
VW Service bulletin recommendation.​
VW p/n ZVW 340 001 is SAC 32938
Lubricity Formula
Applies only to PDs. I think.

Thanks for the reassurance :) I'm loving it soo far !!!
Your poor front bumper! Now it's got four holes in it! :(
 

oxford_guy

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A no additives clause from VW would imply you must use untreated fuel. If the terminal puts additive in, there goes the warranty.
It's easy enough to write it so that it only applies to additives added by users, rather than additives in fuel from pumps. If it exists in reality, it can be written in.

How can they tell? I don't know, but it may be possible in certain circumstances. For instance, they may not be able to tell if it's user-added bio, but it may be possible if it's PS or Opti.
 
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40X40

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It's easy enough to write it so that it only applies to additives added by users, rather than additives in fuel from pumps. If it exists in reality, it can be written in.

How can they tell? I don't know, but it may be possible in certain circumstances. For instance, they may not be able to tell if it's user-added bio, but it may be possible if it's PS or Opti.

Any fuel additive is considered an additive only when it is added after the fuel is sold at retail.
If it was added before the retail sale it is just part of the fuel we purchased as far as any of us can be concerned.

Come back to reality, folks. THINK.

Bill
 

kjclow

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Applies only to PDs. I think.
:(
You're probably right but I haven't been able to find anyone that has a copy of it. I guess I can ask the dealer when I pick up my new TDI this next week :D Then I'll have two in the garage.
 

El Dobro

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You're probably right but I haven't been able to find anyone that has a copy of it. I guess I can ask the dealer when I pick up my new TDI this next week :D Then I'll have two in the garage.
The Stanadyne Lubricity Formula is for any diesel. GM also recommends it.
 

bhtooefr

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Right, but the TSB is only for PDs and older, I believe. That is, VW recommends it for VEs and PDs, but not CRs.
 

El Dobro

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And we all know VW can go flick themselves regarding the use of lubricity additives with the CR engines.
 

mxs

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I think if more people understood the difference between diesel fuels sold in Canada vs US, less people would be just blaming VW for HPFP failures. They designed the car expecting certain level of fuel. Seeing how people from different states write about non-existing policies or measures to guarantee a quality of diesel makes me think ....


Having said that, one question mark is why would VW sold a diesel car in a region where a required clean enough fuel is not readily available (I presume they knew it ...)? One way to deal with it would be using more robust/expensive pump which could take dirtier fuel without significantly changing pump lifespan expectancy.... Maybe they knew it, but someone was trying to save a dollar or two ... in the short term. Sounds like hard to believe logic, but who knows anything is possible nowadays.

Is there any other diesel car sold in US which runs the same pump. I believe there's only one or two HPFP pump manufacturers in the whole world (Bosch is one ...). Should not be that hard to crack ...
 
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bhtooefr

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That point about VW not designing a product fit for purpose has been brought up many, many times. ;)

In any case, as far as pumps go, the only vehicles in the US using the Bosch CP4 family pumps are:

VW Golf/Jetta/Audi A3 2.0 TDI
VW Touareg/Audi Q7 3.0 TDI
Ford F-250/350 6.7 PowerStroke
2011 Chevy Silverado/Express/GMC Sierra/Savana Duramax

AFAICT, they're not blowing up in Ford or GM applications.
 

madmako

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Verrry Interesting....

"....they're not blowing up in Ford or GM applications."

If this is true, this puts a whole new spin on things, I would imagine.:confused:
 

El Dobro

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The HPFP seems to be fine in the CR M-B diesels, too.
 
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