1.9 overhaul. upgrade advice?

New guy from alberta here. New to tdi motors, reading, searching and injesting as much as i can.

Going to be stuffing a tdi into a jeep. I will be tearing it down and rebuilding it before transplant. Jeep will weight 4500lbs approximately and turning 40 inch tires. Its purpose will be an expedition type vehicle with a slight bias towards off road (40s). I wheel in the middle of nowhere, reliability is very important. I wheel in winter, cold starts are important. I am a jeep guy, cost is important.

I picked up a complete jetta with a bew engine for cheap, then i picked up a jetta with an alh for cheap (not planned but couldnt turn it down). Bew has 300km alh has 370km. I have torn into the bew but not the alh yet.

Factory jeep 4.0 makes 190hp 225tq. I would at the very least like to replicate these numbers. I understand this wont be difficult on the torque side to far exceed.

Cam in bew isnt toast, previous owner used 505 01, however it will be replaced along with a head rebuild.

Alh is a manual so 10mm injection pump.

There are many threads about building and comparison of these two motors. A lot of them are side railed and a lot of them delve into what else needs upgrading. Im only interested in the motor.

With the bew i need to buy a new cam, speaking with Owain at malone the colt is a good option, nozzles can be done by Giles for a reasonable fee, however he does not have the equipment to test them and if nozzles have to be replaced by a shop, they may as well be tested/balanced.

As far as the alh is concerned i can replace nozzles myself ($ saved). Probably be able to reuse the cam, although there is a slight savings in the cam itself should i choose to purchase aftermarket.

I see great value in a vnt17, at low off road speeds quick spool is great. Pd injectors wouldnt require modification to compliment this turbo whereas alh would. Exhaust, intercooler etc would be done regardless of engine choice. Is the 1756 worth the additional $500? Bew injectors would need upgrading at this point so alh makes more sense.

Based on my power goals (190ish hp and as much torque as possible), reliability and cost concerns, which route would you choose. Any input is appreciated.

Either engine will get you what you need with the proper upgrades. I think you'll probably need a turbo upgrade and corresponding tune for either engine to hit that power goal, so the costs there are pretty much the same.

DBW is probably the only place you can get PD injectors serviced properly. Not great with the USD:CAD split right now.

It'll probably be easier to hit your goals with the BEW, it's starting off that much closer.

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Take a look at my Jeep Comanche TDI Conversion thread:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=475193

This is my second engine with the GTC1549VZ turbo. It spools great! Got the GTC1549VZ for the Jeep on Ebay.uk for $275! Power at the front wheels is 162hp, torque is 285 lb/ft on my low smoke tune. On my power tune, it is 172 hp and 313 lb/ft at the front wheels. More to be had with a Colt cam.
The Jeep 4.0 190hp would be about 167 hp at rear wheels. Torque would be about 198 lb/ft.

Your 10mm ALH pump will be fine with Race 520 nozzles.

Understand the injectors on the 1.9 PD engine limit its power.

Thanks for the replys, love the commanche, very few and far between these days.

Start with the BEW. Turbo, nozzles, cam (if it's worn out, else leave it alone), tune and you're done.

Edit: ALH can make the same power. I guess that's OK too. I just don't like the approach taken by some tuners and owners alike who use too big turbos, too small injectors/pumps and overly long, smoky injection durations to do it. That said, I consider 11mm essential, so the expense of an upgrade here becomes a wash compared to starting with the BEW as a base, which is why I recommend the latter. Race520 with the ALH or comparable and nothing smaller.

There's no need for an aftermarket cam for either engine if torque is your primary interest. Since displacement is a given, it's all about turbo spool here. The key is to select the smallest turbo that is properly matched for its target power and operating point. I've posted my list of recommended turbos in this power range many recent times; the GTC is excellent and now becoming very cheap, cheaper from offshore eBay than buying a used unit domestically.

TDIMeister said:

I just don't like the approach taken by some tuners and owners alike who use too big turbos

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man tell me about it. IMO this is often the #1 mistake that guys make when planning a build.

One of the most difficult jobs I have is conveying to guys that the "biggest" is not necessarily "the best", especially if good manners are important... and the manners are *always* important in the end, no matter how "badass" guys claim to wanna be. It's fun for posting a thread, or claiming big headline numbers, but it gets tiring after a while if you have to live with it every day.

and of course that subjective stuff is all relative. But the laws of physics are what they are

Sure there don't appear to be tradeoffs or compromises at the entry levels or milder levels of tuning and modification if TDI's... but that's only because the factory sandbags and detunes intentionally for political reasons... why do you think there are disfcreet HP levels that are common to all euro makes? 90 hp, 130 hp, 170 hp, etc. (in the "mainstream" or "mass market" models)
... and some guys are lead to think that this is an infinite thing and they should never expect not have to compromise at all, ever.

Too much is just enough... yeah whatever. Very common discussion, why you really DO NOT need "more boost" even though it might sound like you could be somehow "missing out" on something with a lower boost number.

Sure the bigger turbos "can" find bigger "headline" numbers but I've driven some of those "amazing" builds and they just drive like ass. No other way to say it. Yet they say glowing things all over the internet, lots of awesome looking photos, lots of gratz and virtual pats on the back, maybe even a nice you tube video with catchy indy music. But as entertaining as that is, it's not reality.

Lucky for us the automakers are always pushing a bit harder and getting more output than ever before from a 2 liter diesel. So it's fair to say that there are better turbos available that can be used as one component of a very effective upgrade with no compromise. But using a turbo that's designed for a 3.0 liter engine in a 2.0 liter will ALWAYS have compromises. I would only recommend such a change only in very limited circumstances.

the main problem is guys read something on the internet and then start repeating it as if it's fact, and then it takes on a life of its own. But such is the world we live in.

ok enough of that, back to our regularly scheduled thread.

I would base your decision on the condition of the engine.
If the BEW is in good shape then it will do a lot with just a tune and a turbo if needed.
If the ALH is in better shape it is an easier starting point because you can upgrade it in stages.
The conversion will be plenty to do so start with the engine that will need the least work.

That being said, I'm a fan of the 1756 but it's the only 'big' turbo I've tried.

Some good food for thought here.

Do you feel better now kerma? ��

When i was a younger man i threw a small fortune at a cummins engine, it was never enough, it was not exactly my idea of reliable and loved to eat transmissions. My driving habits may have had something to do with the transmissions.

Now that im slightly older, slightly more responsible, i have come to appreciate the sweet spot for vehicles. This is what i am trying to find through you guys. A balance of power, reliability and cost. Dont care how much boost it makes, someone will probably have more, dont care how much fuel it flows, someone will probably flow more. I put down the tape measure when i totaled that dodge.

Thanks for your input on the turbo john and meister, sounds like what im after. I hadnt heard about it before you mentioned it.

Thanks for helping confirm my thoughts of the 10mm pump, pretty well made the decision to go with the bew. Sounds like the moderate goals are achievable with stock injectors. However I have read head cracking at some level is almost always prevalent in bew heads. That makes my manhood itch. Any more light to be shed on this?

FWIW, I have a 2003 Jetta (ALH) with the Kerma 150 HP kit (VNT 17 turbo, 1019 nozzles, 3 BAR MAP, tune, etc) and it runs very nice. It's very street friendly and has been very smooth for 1,000's of trouble-free miles. I just finished a 3,720 mile trip to New England and she averaged 47.67 MPG over the whole trip with A/C on 1/2 the time and the cruise set at 75 MPH.

This car is plenty for me and I really would't even try to get "more" out of it. If I wanted a tire burner, I would buy my old Corvette back (if it was for sale).

BEW can reach those goals fairly simple and "easily"

The BEW also has a stronger bottom end


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The biggest thing with these diesels is that even if the peak horsepower number is a bit lower than the jeep, your area under the curve is COMPLETELY different.

Although that AMC made 190HP @ 4750, it made 225lb-ft @ 4000, which translates to 171.4HP. Lets take idpart's ALH VNT17/22 dyno for argument's sake (yes I know, different motor, different turbo, but close enough for the sake of an example)


It's making 170 to the wheels by 4000 rpm, and unlike the AMC which gradually builds torque as RPM increases, the diesel is losing it. That results in a flatter power curve, which makes it faster everywhere. It crests 150WHP @ 2700, which is easily what the AMC makes at 4000. If we assume the AMC makes 225lb-ft @ 2700 (it doesn't), that translates to 115HP. At the crank. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss on a FWD car, and assuming the AMC actually makes peak torque at 2700, that's a 50% power increase at 2700RPM over stock.

It all boils down to where you plan on driving it. Between 1500-3000, or over 4000? It's hard to compete with the torque of a diesel for daily use.

rockchucker said:

Sounds like the moderate goals are achievable with stock injectors.

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I don't know what you mean by "moderate", but you won't get to 190 as in your OP on stock BEW nozzles.

Since it seems like you are leaning towards the BEW and have a fairly tight budget, here's what I would spend my money on.

-GTC1549 turbo should give you the responsiveness you're looking for and can be found quite reasonable.
-PD150 injectors will get you to the 190 hp level and can be purchased from ryanp. http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/1-9-8v-tdi-pd150-arl-injector-set-038-130-073-al.html
-Make sure you have a decent Intercooler setup to prevent heat soak, since I'm guessing you won't be moving all that fast in the Jeep.
-A 2.5" exhaust will make sure that spool up won't be an issue.

Those are the big ticket items that I'd recommend and like others have mentioned, a cam isn't necessary for what you are looking to do.

Just another opinion here...

Take either one and get it installed in the jeep, put a tune only on it and drive it. All of the other stuff (turbos, cam, injectors, etc) can be installed at a later date for more/less the same money as it would take to do it at the beginning. A factory setup with a tune will be the most reliable, likely have the best "manners" and like Owain mentioned, where and how the power is delivered makes more difference than the absolute value of the numbers themselves.

It will be hard to compete with the responsiveness of the 4.0l naturally aspirated engine that it came with, but before you go spend an extra $1-3K on hardware, give the stock setup a try first.