Status hearing w/ Judge is F 12/16 - check this link for transcript of meeting

flargabarg

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TDI
2011 Touareg Lux TDI
Flargabarg, your condescending post makes sense given your signature. You own a 3.0 Gen1. You get options - fix, no fix, sell back - without lifting a finger. We 3.0 Gen2 owners do not. Instead, we get the "opt out" option you sarcastically urge us to take.

Look at the opt-out deadline. Notice something important? It comes months before we will know anything about VW's claimed "fix". Does that seem fair to you? That we're supposed to guess whether VW's claimed "fix" is just another lie piled upon the lies that preceded it? While you're cashing your check and moving on from VW, we'll still be bound up in the deceit, waiting for VW to submit its fix (April 2017), for EPA to rule (Dec 2017), for VW to extend the EPA deadline by 90 days (March 2018), to undergo the fix (likely 2019 based on 2.0 track record), and only then know whether VW/EPA has delivered what VW promises will ONLY hurt performance figures by 5%...and if they lied and failed to deliver, it will be too late to opt out BY TWO YEARS. Meanwhile, of course, you'll be long gone from this forum, along with your smug posts like this one. A silver lining for us Gen2 3.0 owners.
Wow. Okay. When I said if you do not like the terms to opt out, I meant it. Any read of sarcasm is on your part. I meant what I said in my post. I think you have a good chance of getting your own buyback settlement, just know what you're going in for when you do it.
 

bird67

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Snowy North
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2014 Touareg TDI*
Would you agree they are taking care of the overseas military folks you asked about above where you called me cruel?

And have you read where they are extending our factory warranty for gen 2 3.0's until the fix or buy back then extending it significantly?
I did see that they are doing something for military folks, I think that's terrific.
I also see that there is a component of warranty extension, which could benefit some Gen2 owners, while some of us not as much, those of us who already have extended warranties (mine is to 100k, the extension is to 120k and is for emissions components only). These are good additions.

Now, did you see that the entire premise of the Gen2 settlement rests upon VW's assertion that it has a fix for the Gen2? VW has a terrible track record with truthfulness (remember when they said they did not cheat on the 3.0? Whoops...). Yet class counsel is taking them at their word, the result of which is that we Gen2 owners will continue to twist in the wind until early 2018 before we even know if the fix is approved...and far beyond to have it implemented...and far beyond that to know if it hurts performance....while meanwhile, those among us who would like to move on to another vehicle (for any number of reasons, VW related or not) will take a bath on the resale.

A proper settlement would have given Gen2 owners, and not VW, control over our fate. We want nothing more than what Gen1 owners get - choice. We aren't getting it, which means, unlike Gen1 owners, we're at the mercy of an admitted fraud.
 

flargabarg

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TDI
2011 Touareg Lux TDI
Where did you see the 2018 date? I thought the deadline that triggers a buyback was in 2017.
 

bird67

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2014 Touareg TDI*
Where did you see the 2018 date? I thought the deadline that triggers a buyback was in 2017.
You're partially correct. Depending on which Gen2 category, the EPA/CARB approval date is October, November, or December 2017. But the agreement gives VW the right to extend that date by 30 days, up to three times. It also gives VW incentive to do so, because each extension will only cost it $500 per affected vehicle. So in reality, the 2017 deadline by which Gen2 owners will learn whether EPA/CARB accepts VW's "fix" will be extended into 2018.
 

MBQ

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Houston, TX
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2012 Golf TDI 4Dr DSG
You're partially correct. Depending on which Gen2 category, the EPA/CARB approval date is October, November, or December 2017. But the agreement gives VW the right to extend that date by 30 days, up to three times. It also gives VW incentive to do so, because each extension will only cost it $500 per affected vehicle. So in reality, the 2017 deadline by which Gen2 owners will learn whether EPA/CARB accepts VW's "fix" will be extended into 2018.

This is a very odd arrangement.

If VW ever exercises that option, there mustn't be a certified fix. The $500 is buying VW more time to postpone the buyback.
 

bird67

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Snowy North
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2014 Touareg TDI*
This is a very odd arrangement.
If VW ever exercises that option, there mustn't be a certified fix. The $500 is buying VW more time to postpone the buyback.
Exactly right. If VW is telling the truth and has the fix that underlies this entire Gen2 scheme that allows it to avoid the buyback, why would it have needed these extra 90 days?

And yet, says AZ7000', we're all whiners and greedy malcontents...including 14Q5TDi whom he apparently believes has no business owning such a vehicle since her famaily can ill afford the financial hit VW greed and avarice bestowed upon them.
 

flargabarg

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Joined
Jul 31, 2005
TDI
2011 Touareg Lux TDI
You're partially correct. Depending on which Gen2 category, the EPA/CARB approval date is October, November, or December 2017. But the agreement gives VW the right to extend that date by 30 days, up to three times. It also gives VW incentive to do so, because each extension will only cost it $500 per affected vehicle. So in reality, the 2017 deadline by which Gen2 owners will learn whether EPA/CARB accepts VW's "fix" will be extended into 2018.
You do realize you're saying that it costs them 30M each time they ask for a 30 day extension, right? I know it's peanuts compared to the settlement but it's still the sort of thing a company would look to avoid if they could.
 

bird67

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You do realize you're saying that it costs them 30M each time they ask for a 30 day extension, right? I know it's peanuts compared to the settlement but it's still the sort of thing a company would look to avoid if they could.
You're still here? I thought you'd have cashed your buyback check by now. You know, the check we whiny Gen2 owners can only get if we opt out, hire a lawyer, spend the next three years litigating, and win - which you assure us is a slam dunk.

When VW is extending the deadline for the third time, into 2018, we'll still be here, with no control over our vehicle's fates thanks to class counsel selling us out to VW's lies. You'll be driving your Prius or Leaf or whatever you'll buy with your buyout. So spare us if we find it hard to take your VW fanboy defenses very seriously.
 

DanB36

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Savannah, GA
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2014 Q5 Prestige TDI, Monsoon Gray
You're still here?
Do you have any actual points to make, or are you just going to berate anyone who disagrees with you? If you really think this settlement fails to compensate you appropriately, opt out and pursue your own action. And if you really think that class counsel deliberately sold Gen 2 owners down the river, that would be a gross violation of professional ethics--file a bar complaint against them. That's your recourse at this point.

Or, I guess, continue to engage in the kinds of histrionics you're doing now. It will accomplish nothing except pissing off everyone around you (probably including yourself), but hey, why stop now?
 

bird67

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Hi Dan, I appreciate your invitation to state my point. Read on.

I believe class counsel has an obligation to deliver a settlement that benefits all class members, as equally as possible. I also believe that a class action settlement should favor the interests of the consumers and not the admitted fraudulent wrongdoer. I believe this settlement fails on both counts.

Gen1 owners fare well under this agreement because the agreement reserves to the owners the right to choose the fates of their vehicles. They can choose to continue to drive their vehicles or they can turn the vehicles in (buyback). Whichever choice each owner makes, VW must abide by and accommodate. This is how it should be, because VW cheated and lied about it.

Gen2 owners fare less well because the agreement retains for VW the right to choose the fates of our Gen2 vehicles. Without a buyback option, Gen2 owners who wish to be done with VW are left to sell our vehicles into a market depressed by VW’s malfeasance. The alternatives are to stay with VW without submitting to the fix, at risk of decreased parts and service availability and extended warranty breach; or, submit to the fix, on faith that VW is telling the truth when it says it has a fix that will not degrade the way the vehicle performs.

The sole reason Gen2 owners are not offered a buyback is because VW insists it has a fix for Gen2s. I believe it was inherently wrong for class counsel to agree to a deal predicated on whether VW is telling the truth about having a fix. VW was fraudulent, and then VW lied about it. As such VW should not be given the benefit of the doubt about this promise. The benefit of the doubt should have gone to Gen2 consumers to decide, for ourselves, whether to accept VW’s word and wait for the fix, or reject its word as another in a series of lies, and take a buyback.

I realize that the agreement requires VW to prove its fix will work without harm, and imposes a buyback component if VW fails to do so. That is a good thing, in concept. In application, though, there are two problems. First, the timeframe to determine acceptability of the fix extends into 2018. Second, the agreement establishes EPA as the sole arbiter of acceptability. EPA’s interests in “performance” are defined differently than an owners. EPA doesn’t care if the car shifts funny, or accelerates sluggishly, or makes noises. It cares about emissions. And, of course, EPA’s mission, if not its existence, is very much in flux under President Trump. As such it is a poor arbiter to decide the outcome of a consumer class action law suit.

In my view, this settlement should have reserved the choice of fate for each Gen2 owner’s vehicle to the Gen2 owner. For those like you, Dan, who have faith that VW will deliver a great fix that will not affect performance, you would opt for the fix. For others who do not share that faith, they would opt for the buy-back. That would put the vehicle back in VW’s hands to repair and resell, assuming that its fix delivers on VW’s promises.

To the suggestion that Gen2 owners unhappy with the settlement should opt-out, I submit that is an empty option. This class was certified because it met the criteria of a class – which means that, by definition, individual suits by individual class members is inherently untenable. The way class actions should be resolved is by hearing the concerns of class members and reaching settlements that address their harms. I feel that this settlement did not accomplish that for Gen2 owers.
Again, Dan, thank you for the invitation to state my bases for objecting to this settlement.
 

flargabarg

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TDI
2011 Touareg Lux TDI
I agree that there should be a buyback for Gen2. There isn't. At this point your options are opting out and suing, or ... actually, that's your only option. You can write the court but if the past is any indicator it won't change the settlement. We can't change a thing about this. I'm sorry.
 

bird67

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I agree that there should be a buyback for Gen2. There isn't. At this point your options are opting out and suing, or ... actually, that's your only option. You can write the court but if the past is any indicator it won't change the settlement. We can't change a thing about this. I'm sorry.
You are right on all counts.
 

DanB36

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Where did I state any opinion about whether VW would deliver a fix, what it would look like, or what impact (if any) it would have on performance? I'll save you the time to look--I never did. Stop putting words in my mouth. It's dishonest.
 

bird67

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Where did I state any opinion about whether VW would deliver a fix, what it would look like, or what impact (if any) it would have on performance? I'll save you the time to look--I never did. Stop putting words in my mouth. It's dishonest.
Do you have one?
 

DanB36

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Do you have one?
No, not really.

You seem to be very certain about a great many things you couldn't possibly know (just to name three: my beliefs regarding a 3-liter fix, what will actually happen regarding that fix, what class counsel were thinking in negotiating this settlement). And you seem to prefer complaining about them here to actually doing something about them. I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
 

bird67

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No, not really.

You seem to be very certain about a great many things you couldn't possibly know (just to name three: my beliefs regarding a 3-liter fix, what will actually happen regarding that fix, what class counsel were thinking in negotiating this settlement). And you seem to prefer complaining about them here to actually doing something about them. I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
Dan, let's summarize. You have neither beliefs nor opinions to offer, other than mine are wrong. If you have something substantive to offer, it would be a welcome and refreshing change.
 

DanB36

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Your reading comprehension needs work. I don't have an opinion as to whether a 3-liter fix will be approved, what form it will take, or what effect (if any) it will have on any performance characteristic of the cars. I have offered a good many other beliefs and opinions, though I try to largely restrict my posts to facts, and not express certainty about facts that I have no knowledge about. You clearly do not feel similarly constrained.
 

bird67

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Dan, for fun, let's assume that forums like this are an exchange, a market basket of thoughts, ideas, and opinions. You invited me to express mine, which I did (copied below). Would you care to honor the forum by expressing countering views? You have offered two, so far. One is that Gen2 owners who object to the settlement have the right to opt out and pursue an independent remedy, which is true. The other is that I ought not presume that your faith that VW will deliver the promised fix, a valid correction. Do you have others? Would you care to share them? Do you have faith that VW will deliver the promised fix? If so, why? If not, why not, and does that affect how you view the proposed settlement? I'm open to arguments and positions counter to mine, and I suspect others who are dubious of this settlement will be, too. So, please, share with us.

Hi Dan, I appreciate your invitation to state my point. Read on.

I believe class counsel has an obligation to deliver a settlement that benefits all class members, as equally as possible. I also believe that a class action settlement should favor the interests of the consumers and not the admitted fraudulent wrongdoer. I believe this settlement fails on both counts.

Gen1 owners fare well under this agreement because the agreement reserves to the owners the right to choose the fates of their vehicles. They can choose to continue to drive their vehicles or they can turn the vehicles in (buyback). Whichever choice each owner makes, VW must abide by and accommodate. This is how it should be, because VW cheated and lied about it.

Gen2 owners fare less well because the agreement retains for VW the right to choose the fates of our Gen2 vehicles. Without a buyback option, Gen2 owners who wish to be done with VW are left to sell our vehicles into a market depressed by VW’s malfeasance. The alternatives are to stay with VW without submitting to the fix, at risk of decreased parts and service availability and extended warranty breach; or, submit to the fix, on faith that VW is telling the truth when it says it has a fix that will not degrade the way the vehicle performs.

The sole reason Gen2 owners are not offered a buyback is because VW insists it has a fix for Gen2s. I believe it was inherently wrong for class counsel to agree to a deal predicated on whether VW is telling the truth about having a fix. VW was fraudulent, and then VW lied about it. As such VW should not be given the benefit of the doubt about this promise. The benefit of the doubt should have gone to Gen2 consumers to decide, for ourselves, whether to accept VW’s word and wait for the fix, or reject its word as another in a series of lies, and take a buyback.

I realize that the agreement requires VW to prove its fix will work without harm, and imposes a buyback component if VW fails to do so. That is a good thing, in concept. In application, though, there are two problems. First, the timeframe to determine acceptability of the fix extends into 2018. Second, the agreement establishes EPA as the sole arbiter of acceptability. EPA’s interests in “performance” are defined differently than an owners. EPA doesn’t care if the car shifts funny, or accelerates sluggishly, or makes noises. It cares about emissions. And, of course, EPA’s mission, if not its existence, is very much in flux under President Trump. As such it is a poor arbiter to decide the outcome of a consumer class action law suit.

In my view, this settlement should have reserved the choice of fate for each Gen2 owner’s vehicle to the Gen2 owner. For those like you, Dan, who have faith that VW will deliver a great fix that will not affect performance, you would opt for the fix. For others who do not share that faith, they would opt for the buy-back. That would put the vehicle back in VW’s hands to repair and resell, assuming that its fix delivers on VW’s promises.

To the suggestion that Gen2 owners unhappy with the settlement should opt-out, I submit that is an empty option. This class was certified because it met the criteria of a class – which means that, by definition, individual suits by individual class members is inherently untenable. The way class actions should be resolved is by hearing the concerns of class members and reaching settlements that address their harms. I feel that this settlement did not accomplish that for Gen2 owers.
Again, Dan, thank you for the invitation to state my bases for objecting to this settlement.
 
Last edited:

sixty7gt500

New member
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Feb 14, 2017
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Billings, MT
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2010 Touareg TDI
Am I reading correctly; Gen 1 vehicles have until June 1, 2019 to commit to the fix/buyback and Gen 2 vehicles have until Dec. 31, 2019?

Unique circumstances aside, at least this aspect seems to benefit us. How often do you get to drive a car for two more years without depreciation or cosmetic/minor damages to worry about?
 
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