Pay fine and fix emissions problem or buyback?

TDI2000Zim · Oct 8, 2015

ITDID said:
IMHO VW has had a big time trust issue for the past few years and this most recent mess points to a culture of hiding problems. My direct experience has been with a DMF which grenaded at 77k. They did not admit fault but kind of did with a not-so-subtle part number/supplier change for the replacement DMf. A similar contributor to the trust issue could be said about a substandard cam design which wears out waaay before it should have (PD engines). Then there's the infamous HPFP issue; I can recall being at the dealer for the DMf issue in 2009 when there was an angry customer present facing thousands for a fuel system replacement, only to be accused of misfueling. They finally did mostly reimburse, but only after repeated failures. When there are a crazy number of car companies out there, and the profit margins being razor thin, you would think a better strategy would be to build customer loyalty by building or repairing trust instead of repeatedly breaking trust. I still love the car 260k miles later but am leery of vw as a company-not that I blindly trust any manufacturer.

Everybody hides something. Which is why you and I don't walk naked in the streets in summer.

I think that the issue with VW is more similar to, "I'm the Donald Trump of diesel automobiles!"

Then again, Trump does make fun of himself every now and then.

I think the antidote to this whole deal is a lot more transparency, and a return to the 1960's "we are willing to serve" attitude.

dieselgrandad · Oct 8, 2015

TDI2000Zim said:
I agree with paragrunt, it was the EPA.

There is no BIG ENGINE LOBBY.

LOL in your opinion. IMO - if the US auto manufacturers put half as much money into development and marketing of diesel passenger vehicles as they did into lobbying Congress (particularly lobbying to keep foreign cars out), there'd be no "Fred's" and we'd all be driving diesel Focus's, Cruz's, etc.

refueler · Oct 8, 2015

I've smelled diesel because when a boat is snorkeling between the diesel exhaust and all of the water mixed in its not a pleasant place to be.

cascade7997 · Oct 8, 2015

refueler said:
I've smelled diesel because when a boat is snorkeling between the diesel exhaust and all of the water mixed in its not a pleasant place to be.

Just keep that head valve open.
"Diving Office, GET ME UP!"

dieselgrandad · Oct 8, 2015

cascade7997 said:
Just keep that head valve open.
"Diving Office, GET ME UP!"

At what time , sir?

One thing about snorkeling or ventilating in heavy seas, it kept your ear drums flexible.

Rodmiser · Oct 11, 2015

Dirty Diesel

Look at the truck lines. TDI's are clean!

Jimmy Coconuts · Oct 11, 2015

Regarding a Gen 1 fix vs buyback, has anyone put together a list of how many variants are included with each model?

Jetta Mk 5 (2009 cbea, 2010 cjaa), Mk 6 (2011+ cjaa)
JSW Mk 5 (2009 cbea, 2010 cjaa), Mk 6 (2011+ cjaa)
Golf (2 door vs 4 door, different engines?)
New Beetle (2009-2011)
Beetle (2102+)

How would they fix a Gen 1 Golf or any of the Beetles if they require SCR? Replace independent rear suspension?

I probably mixed up some combinations, and left out some others, but man what a nightmare.

ApriliaNut · Oct 11, 2015

paragrunt said:
This is genuinely disturbing. I bought my car under a false premise. I was looking for a car that was a "clean diesel" AND was known to last a long time while getting great fuel economy. This has all been a bright shining lie. If the "patch" or "fix" is going to lower my fuel economy and possibly reduce the life of my engine, then VW can piss up a rope.

I used to have one of "those" clean earth friendly diesels. I bought a 2005 Jeep Liberty Diesel with the 2.8 CRD when they were new. I did a ton of research and was on various Jeep and off-roading forums outside the US and everyone who had one absolutely loved their Jeep diesels. BUT, apparently when they came here, our tree hugging EPA ruined the engines by putting unrealistic expectations on Chrysler. I had it for about 2 years and about 32k miles while it was in the shop for a total accumulation of around 2-3 months. It went through 3 EGR valves and a glow plug, among some other non-engine related repairs. I sent in the card in the back of the owners manual that stated "Notice of intent to file lemon lawsuit" and Chrysler couldn't get me to go away fast enough. I traded it in PDQ.

SO, when VW "flashes" the PCM or applies a patch, I will be expecting that there is going to be some major problems with the cars emissions systems. I know that on my old Liberty, an EGR valve was a $900.00 part (approx.) and another $1100.00 in labor. If they keep blowing EGR valves, then it's going to be very costly AND aggravating.

As for me, I'm done with VW. If they offer the ability to trade it in for a generous offer on another car, then I'm looking for the biggest VW dealer I can find and gonna look hard at their used lot. Doubt it will work that way, but I'd look for a used 2014 or 2015 in something I like. The only reason I bought a VW at all was for the TDI. That illusion is shattered, so I'm done with them. I saw that Pulaski Law Firm advertising commercials like crazy for a class action lawsuit. Their that big law firm that goes after pharmaceutical companies and big hospitals. That should be interesting.

After they buy yours back, take the $$ and find preferrably a 2005.5 pkg 2 Jetta, (or an 06 pkd 2) put a Malone Tune on it and Colt stage 2 cam, refresh the suspension if needed, and you should be good for 500k w/normal maintenance. Then pocket the remaining cash or go to Frys and get a big flat screen!!

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/a5/2005-2006-VW-Jetta-TDI-buying-guide.htm

Win/Win!!!

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 12, 2015

Jimmy Coconuts said:
Regarding a Gen 1 fix vs buyback, has anyone put together a list of how many variants are included with each model?

Jetta Mk 5 (2009 cbea, 2010 cjaa), Mk 6 (2011+ cjaa)
JSW Mk 5 (2009 cbea, 2010 cjaa), Mk 6 (2011+ cjaa)
Golf (2 door vs 4 door, different engines?)
New Beetle (2009-2011)
Beetle (2102+)

How would they fix a Gen 1 Golf or any of the Beetles if they require SCR? Replace independent rear suspension?

I probably mixed up some combinations, and left out some others, but man what a nightmare.

Not sure what point you're trying to make here, but there really are only two engines from '09-14 for the Golf, JSW, and Jetta Sedan. The differences between the CBEA and CJAA are very minor, and, except for the exhaust construction, don't impact emissions.

If you're considering packaging the Adblue tank (if necessary) that should be pretty simple in all cars. After all, they fit one in the Jetta Sedan without altering the rear suspension or fuel tank. My understanding is the fill at the filler neck is a big part of the issue in the '15 Golf. Worst case they could eliminate the spare or go to a space saver.

Not saying this is simple, but the number of variations will be fewer than you list.

cascade7997 · Oct 12, 2015

dieselgrandad said:
At what time , sir?

One thing about snorkeling or ventilating in heavy seas, it kept your ear drums flexible.

Back in the 70's
Retired as MTC in '82
Qualified as Diving Officer on USS Tecumseh and USS Von Steuben

d2305 · Oct 12, 2015

Walking on the bulkheads is fun. Skimmer here.

MrSprdSheet · Oct 12, 2015

ITDID said:
IMHO VW has had a big time trust issue for the past few years and this most recent mess points to a culture of hiding problems. My direct experience has been with a DMF which grenaded at 77k. They did not admit fault but kind of did with a not-so-subtle part number/supplier change for the replacement DMf. A similar contributor to the trust issue could be said about a substandard cam design which wears out waaay before it should have (PD engines). Then there's the infamous HPFP issue; I can recall being at the dealer for the DMf issue in 2009 when there was an angry customer present facing thousands for a fuel system replacement, only to be accused of misfueling. They finally did mostly reimburse, but only after repeated failures. When there are a crazy number of car companies out there, and the profit margins being razor thin, you would think a better strategy would be to build customer loyalty by building or repairing trust instead of repeatedly breaking trust. I still love the car 260k miles later but am leery of vw as a company-not that I blindly trust any manufacturer.

Well put, and just about all of it applies to the manuals as well.

VW's strategy of getting to the most expensive "gen 1" cars last, appears to be a "wear the customer down" technique. I'd bet almost 2:1 no formalized buyback shows up, unless compelled by state law (CA?). They have 26 billion in cash, and notwithstanding the brains of going with SCR in the first place, they could go as fast as they want to. Seems they are...

VeeDubTDI · Oct 13, 2015

Jimmy Coconuts said:
Regarding a Gen 1 fix vs buyback, has anyone put together a list of how many variants are included with each model?
Jetta Mk 5 (2009 cbea, 2010 cjaa), Mk 6 (2011+ cjaa)
JSW Mk 5 (2009 cbea, 2010 cjaa), Mk 6 (2011+ cjaa)
Golf (2 door vs 4 door, different engines?)
New Beetle (2009-2011)
Beetle (2102+)
How would they fix a Gen 1 Golf or any of the Beetles if they require SCR? Replace independent rear suspension?
I probably mixed up some combinations, and left out some others, but man what a nightmare.

Beetle urea tanks will go in the rear bumper where it is on 2015 models.

Jetta urea tanks go wherever the 2015 Jetta has it.

Michael Horn explains how many vehicles are in each of the three categories in his testimony to congress. I don't have the exact figures handy, but the information is readily available.

edwinstar100 · Oct 17, 2015

On my 2015 TDI, Clarkedale VW in Vancouver offered me the pre-crisis book price 23,000$ and an additional 2000.oo towards another vehicle, I paid 32,000.oo for it new. Not much is the long and short of it. E-star

GoFaster · Oct 17, 2015

MrSprdSheet said:
Well put, and just about all of it applies to the manuals as well.
VW's strategy of getting to the most expensive "gen 1" cars last, appears to be a "wear the customer down" technique. I'd bet almost 2:1 no formalized buyback shows up, unless compelled by state law (CA?). They have 26 billion in cash, and notwithstanding the brains of going with SCR in the first place, they could go as fast as they want to. Seems they are...

No ... There is no "strategy" of getting to the Gen 1 cars last.

It's a simple matter: Fixing the Gen 1 cars will require considerably more engineering resources and tooling to manufacture new or replacement parts and is a much bigger engineering exercise. That takes TIME. And that means those cars are going to get fixed last.

"They could go as fast as they want to" ... No ... They can go as fast as the amount of time that it takes to develop a solution, perform all of the necessary validation testing to ensure that the solution actually works this time, design and build the tooling, build and ship parts. Beyond a certain point, throwing more people at a design or engineering problem does NOT get the job done any faster. You can certainly take longer by not having enough people on the job, then there is a certain optimum, and beyond that point, everyone starts getting in everyone else's way.

There is no conspiracy here.

GoFaster · Oct 17, 2015

I should add that one of the EPA / CARB requirements is 120,000 / 150,000 mile system durability.

To validate that in hardware (not imaginary durability on someone's computer screen ...), means you need to put 120,000 / 150,000 miles on a car ... preferably multiple cars.

That driving ought to be at least somewhat representative of the real world. Average speed probably 40-ish mph means that test is going to take 3000 - 4000 hours. If you want that test to be at least somewhat representative of the real world, it can't be continuous driving ... it has to include cold starts ... which means the system has to cool down. Yes, you can accelerate the process of cooling down, but every cooldown still has to take a certain amount of time.

That test alone is gonna take 6 months of 24/7 with the necessary cooldown breaks, and it can't be done properly any faster. And that's AFTER sufficient prototypes have been built to do it. And that's AFTER someone has designed and built those prototypes. And that's AFTER someone has developed the design for it. And that's assuming the system doesn't encounter any failures that warrant a redesign and starting over ... It's very easy to get to being a year or more out before they even start fixing those cars, and they're only 6 weeks in and that's assuming they had someone jump on the case the same day they admitted the situation to the EPA ... which probably didn't happen. I don't think it was until mid-September before "the powers that be" actually recognized the magnitude of the problem and one would hope they pulled engineers off other projects and put them on this one at that time ... so they are 4 weeks into what is probably a year-long process.

Hugh Mann · Oct 17, 2015

dogcatcher said:
As someone who owns a 2015 Passat (which was re-flashed last month and still doesn't meet emissions) I can personally tell you that a reprogrammed computer does not fix the problem in my case. Additionally, the new programming dropped MPG as well as power. They did it when I took the car in for it's 1st service but didn't tell me why the program was necessary, just said it was an update.

Your story seems similar to mine. I have a 2013 Golf TDI and they re-flashed my computer as part of a 2015 recall when I brought my car in for scheduled maintenance. My service manager said it was like installing a Windows update on my computer. I said OK to the computer update, but immediately after, I noticed a dramatic loss of power under full acceleration.

This was quite upsetting, so I called my service manager and complained that I had lost 20% of my acceleration power after the update. He sounded surprised, but I remember him saying something about it should only be a 10% loss. I've asked for an explanation of what the 2015 computer update did and no one could give me a straight answer. It seemed a mystery until the Defeat Software story became public. Now, my suspicious mind fills in the blank with conspiracy theories.

The bottom line is I do not want my TDI retrofitted. I've already been deceived twice so I doubt they can fix my TDI to my satisfaction. I'd prefer to keep driving it and get rid of the 2015 computer update that robbed my power. (The service manager was probably right about a 10% power loss).

But I doubt if I will have a choice. I live in California and they'll probably force me to prove that I've had the emissions fix applied when I go in for a subsequent smog check at registration time.

For me the best case scenario is to grandfather clause my TDI emissions and allow me to keep driving it as it is. Let VW pay the fines and leave me out the performance robbing fix. I was happy with the performance and fuel mileage when I bought the car!

CT_Gman · Oct 17, 2015

I had the same situation; a "MIL light" software update to my 2011 Golf at the 70k service. I have not noticed any power reduction though, but I drive pretty sedately...

I bought the Golf, and a 2013 Passat, because I was impressed with the low pollution, high fuel economy engine. Oh, and the torque! Take any of that away and I would have bought an Accord instead of the Passat and a Civic instead of the Golf.

Not happy, but until we really know what the "fix" will be, I'm resigned to just chillin' and drivin'

ATR · Oct 17, 2015

Hugh Mann said:
Your story seems similar to mine. I have a 2013 Golf TDI and they re-flashed my computer as part of a 2015 recall when I brought my car in for scheduled maintenance. My service manager said it was like installing a Windows update on my computer. I said OK to the computer update, but immediately after, I noticed a dramatic loss of power under full acceleration.
This was quite upsetting, so I called my service manager and complained that I had lost 20% of my acceleration power after the update. He sounded surprised, but I remember him saying something about it should only be a 10% loss. I've asked for an explanation of what the 2015 computer update did and no one could give me a straight answer. It seemed a mystery until the Defeat Software story became public. Now, my suspicious mind fills in the blank with conspiracy theories.
The bottom line is I do not want my TDI retrofitted. I've already been deceived twice so I doubt they can fix my TDI to my satisfaction. I'd prefer to keep driving it and get rid of the 2015 computer update that robbed my power. (The service manager was probably right about a 10% power loss).
But I doubt if I will have a choice. I live in California and they'll probably force me to prove that I've had the emissions fix applied when I go in for a subsequent smog check at registration time.
For me the best case scenario is to grandfather clause my TDI emissions and allow me to keep driving it as it is. Let VW pay the fines and leave me out the performance robbing fix. I was happy with the performance and fuel mileage when I bought the car!

That's kinda odd... Many folks noticed no change in performance or if anything a nice little added zip. I personally noticed very little difference other then a little added pep to the car.

tjsadler · Oct 17, 2015

ATR said:
That's kinda odd... Many folks noticed no change in performance or if anything a nice little added zip. I personally noticed very little difference other then a little added pep to the car.

It definitely did NOT add pep in any quantity! And you can rest assured that any "fix" from here on out will be an even more extensive drop in performance and fuel economy. I knew there was some reason no one else was bringing small diesels to the USA. Now we know why.

ATR · Oct 17, 2015

tjsadler said:
It definitely did NOT add pep in any quantity! And you can rest assured that any "fix" from here on out will be an even more extensive drop in performance and fuel economy. I knew there was some reason no one else was bringing small diesels to the USA. Now we know why.

I was looking forward to honda, mazda or subaru bringing diesel powered cars to the US. None of them did. I remember hearing how many folks at various companies were scratching their heads on how vw passed emissions without urea. Now indeed we know.

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 17, 2015

tjsadler said:
It definitely did NOT add pep in any quantity! And you can rest assured that any "fix" from here on out will be an even more extensive drop in performance and fuel economy. I knew there was some reason no one else was bringing small diesels to the USA. Now we know why.

You don't know this. And both BMW and Mercedes have 4 cylinder diesels here that both make good power and meet emissions standards. It can be done.

tjsadler · Oct 17, 2015

IndigoBlueWagon said:
You don't know this. And both BMW and Mercedes have 4 cylinder diesels here that both make good power and meet emissions standards. It can be done.

Yes, at a MUCH higher price point and they both use SCR.

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 17, 2015

And current thinking is that the CBEA/CJAA fix will include adding SCR. Performance and economy may improve as a result.

tjsadler · Oct 17, 2015

Well I have a 14 passat with SCR. It's already been reflashed once. Power and economy went down. It still doesn't meet emissions. When they come up with another tune and reflash again it WILL go down further. It's not a question of IF it will. If it could get more power and economy and meet emissions they would have started with that. When they add those parts to your car it will result in another fluid to refill (not a huge deal), more parts to break, and likely less power and economy. Keep in mind it will be a solution engineered on the fly with little or no reliability testing before it goes on your car. That should be fun...

blimo · Oct 17, 2015

tjsadler said:
Well I have a 14 passat with SCR. It's already been reflashed once. Power and economy went down. It still doesn't meet emissions. When they come up with another tune and reflash again it WILL go down further. It's not a question of IF it will. If it could get more power and economy and meet emissions they would have started with that. When they add those parts to your car it will result in another fluid to refill (not a huge deal), more parts to break, and likely less power and economy. Keep in mind it will be a solution engineered on the fly with little or no reliability testing before it goes on your car. That should be fun...

Ah, the VW way.

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 18, 2015

Most people expect that the cars that already have SCR won't suffer much of a FE loss but an increase in Adblue consumption instead: we'll see. But the non-SCR cars might not lose FE, as the SCR allows them to run more efficiently. Just look at the difference between the non-SCR Jetta Sedan and the new one with the EA288 engine. FE went up. Granted that engine has other changes that could contribute to FE, but the non-SCR Jetta/Golf/NB weren't mileage champs to begin with: Many people with Passats did better, despite it being a larger car.

Folks do seem to agree that the Passat will lose economy. But that car has delivered much better than the EPA rated FE for many. It could end up getting FE much closer to the EPA estimates.

Keep in mind that with the Passat you have the opportunity to take it to a tuner post recall and have things set "right."

pillboxhat · Oct 18, 2015

steves ls6 said:
I will tell you the problem that I have with this at this point. I drive a lot and from my situation earlier this year GM deducts a certain amount of money per mile to buy the car back. I like my car the way it is and I don't want the fix PERIOD. So if I have to do the fix and my car ends up being different and less dependable.....like some of the other stories I have read on this board with the fix they tried earlier this year.....I don't want my car anymore. The more I drive it the less it's worth and I don't want to be financially hurt when and if the time comes.

I understand this is going to be a long process and what the out come will be is anyone's guess at this point.

I'm in the same situation. Exactly. I have a 15' Golf with 35K. I don't want a car that runs differently or gets less MPG. But I also hate the idea that this car is polluting more than it should. And I hate the idea that VW screwed over it's customers and workers this way.

oldhifi · Oct 18, 2015

I plan to keep my car, and hopefully I won't have to do any reflash or repair unless the EPA wants to fine me... My warranty will run out soon, so I will not take it back to the VW dealership....I could care less what book price is cause I not selling it..

Hugh Mann · Oct 18, 2015

ATR said:
That's kinda odd... Many folks noticed no change in performance or if anything a nice little added zip. I personally noticed very little difference other then a little added pep to the car.

I can only tell you what I experienced and it was a loss of hard acceleration power. I'd have a smile on my face if I had gotten added zip.

After the dealer performed the recall and reflashed the computer on my 2013 Golf TDI, I noticed a definite loss of power under hard acceleration from a standstill.

Now, I'm curious. Did anyone else notice a performance difference (plus or minus) after the dealer reflashed your computer for the recent recall?

Pay fine and fix emissions problem or buyback?

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