Gen 3 (2015) fix disclosure

az7000'

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2012 Jetta TDI (gone), 2014 Passat TDI (gone), 2014 Touareg TDI (Amazing!)
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e909

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May 15, 2016
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Edmonton AB
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15 MK7 TDI
like!

I can only hope for the same type of warranty extension for the 3.0's! (the fix only newer ones)
The warranty in itself has to be worth a couple grand . It's pretty much everything expensive to replace on these cars.
 

tdiesling

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2014 Audi A7 Tdi, 2016 Mercedes Sprinter (CDI) 2500 4x4 (DBA as a 2017 Roadtrek SS Agile), (Sold: 2000 Golf Tdi, 1985 Quantum Td, 1980 Rabbit Diesel (totaled)) 2012 Golf Tdi (Emissions purgatory)
That is some good reading. I also hope this applies to the 3.0L.
 

jblondin

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Oct 8, 2015
Location
atlanta
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2015 Golf Sportwagen
really? something for nothing? Really???? All these changes, yet no performance impact to the driver? Really? Read the brochure. Engine noise, fan speed increase, urea increase. ***. VW is truly blowing smoke, and more smoke. I cant wait to get the damn letter to turn this thing in.
 

A.Bursell

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2012 Golf
I guess the obvious question is, if this truly does have no impact on performance, fuel economy, etc. and only reduces emissions - why didn't VW do this in the first place? I may be misreading this, but it looks like the only real hardware change is a second NOx sensor. Everything else is software?
 

fredthe

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Bowie, MD
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2013 Passat SEL Premium DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagon SEL DSG
I guess the obvious question is, if this truly does have no impact on performance, fuel economy, etc. and only reduces emissions - why didn't VW do this in the first place? I may be misreading this, but it looks like the only real hardware change is a second NOx sensor. Everything else is software?
Note that the update only meets Federal emissions criteria, not the CARB specs to which it was sold. Right there is your reason, they wanted to be able to sell it in the CARB states.
 

Armby

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2013 Golf
I guess the obvious question is, if this truly does have no impact on performance, fuel economy, etc. and only reduces emissions - why didn't VW do this in the first place? I may be misreading this, but it looks like the only real hardware change is a second NOx sensor. Everything else is software?
I think the answer, reading between the lines, is that it does have an impact on durability just that VW covers it for mileage less than 150,000. There is some pretty funky explanation (page 6 of the disclousre) around when the phase 2 hardware changes are done and needing to come back again if your mileage is too low when you first get it done. I think they are scheduling things so that they get maximum life out of original exhaust components before they put the replacements in which themselves have limited life.
 

bfrink

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Oct 28, 2016
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California
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2015 Audi A3
I guess the obvious question is, if this truly does have no impact on performance, fuel economy, etc. and only reduces emissions - why didn't VW do this in the first place? I may be misreading this, but it looks like the only real hardware change is a second NOx sensor. Everything else is software?
If you look carefully at the revised emissions limits, the "fixed" cars will only meet federal standards, not California (and states which adhere to California's standards). I think the answer is they really couldn't do this in the first place. You'll also notice that the manual transmission cars won't even meet the federal standards for NOx emissions. This would seem to imply that the automatic transmission's programming is going to be changed quite a bit as well.

Even more, the oxidation catalyst was obviously not designed to be used at the rate it will be after the fix, since it will be replaced as part of the fix (my guess is to meet the 150,000 mile service life criterion).

All in all, it seems that the EA288 engine, which afforded VW the luxury of a clean slate design to meet emissions standards the EA189 couldn't, was underspecified from the very beginning. To me, this clearly shows VW's intent to cheat, and they would have gotten away with it too, if weren't for those meddling kids from West Virginia University.
 

car0430a

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May 31, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
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15' Passat SE TDI 6M
Emissions Modification Phase 2 :

-that is needed to maintain emissions performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle.

Am I missing something here?
Am I reading into it to far?
Is VW saying they only expect the ea288 family to last 150,000 miles?
 

GoFaster

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Jun 16, 1999
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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
Emissions Modification Phase 2 :
-that is needed to maintain emissions performance for the full useful life (150,000 miles) of your vehicle.
Am I missing something here?
Am I reading into it to far?
Is VW saying they only expect the ea288 family to last 150,000 miles?
No, you are reading too much into it.

150,000 miles is what EPA defines the useful life of the emission control system to be.

That does not mean the vehicle has a self-destruct timer set at 150,001 miles.
 

GoFaster

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Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
A slightly more ominous point is that if your vehicle had less than 40,000 mi (automatic) / 70,000 mi (manual) at the time of the phase 2 upgrade, it will need the DOC replaced "a second time" before 150,000 miles.

I don't quite understand that, because if you have more than those initial mileage points at the time of phase 2, they install new DPF, DOC, SCR catalysts at that time (implying that if you have less, they don't) so this would be replacing the DOC the first time. In any case, it appears that DOC durability is an issue if they are replacing that.
 

GoFaster

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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
The extended emission system warranty pretty much also means an engine warranty, and it looks like a really good deal. Turbo is in there, HPFP is in there, that infernal exhaust flapper is in there, DPF is in there, anything engine-related that causes a malfunction warning lamps is in there. "Conflicts are to be resolved in favor of the consumer." Love that phrase.
 

car0430a

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Wisconsin
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15' Passat SE TDI 6M
I understand that it's not going to just end it's life after 150,000 miles. But I do
Understand the bean counters try to save every amount of money they can usually resulting in cheaper products etc. etc. I drive a lot, to much really that's why I bought my TDI. And I'm keeping it until I run the wheels of or until something with similar fuel mileage is available in the years to come. So I can't wait for the fixes and extended warranty coverage.
 

TKP

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Dec 18, 2016
Location
California
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Jetta SE TDI
Warranty Period
The warranty period for the “Extended Emissions Warranty” limited
warranty extension shall be the greater of:
  • 11 years or 162,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from
    the vehicle’s original in-service date; OR

  • 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the
    date and mileage of Phase 1 of the emissions modification.
    At the time of the subsequent Phase 2 modification, the
    extended warranty will be honored for 5 years or 60,000
    miles, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of
    the completion of Phase 2.
I don't seem to understand this clause of when the warranty expires!
The fix is approved and applicable only for 2015 model cars, so why is the 5 years (since Phase 1) and 11 years (since original in-service) coming into picture. Isn't the 11 years clause clearly greater?

Do I have coverage till 2026/162k miles? :confused:
Anybody gotten their head around this?
 

e909

Member
Joined
May 15, 2016
Location
Edmonton AB
TDI
15 MK7 TDI
Warranty Period
The warranty period for the “Extended Emissions Warranty” limited
warranty extension shall be the greater of:
  • 11 years or 162,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from
    the vehicle’s original in-service date; OR

  • 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the
    date and mileage of Phase 1 of the emissions modification.
    At the time of the subsequent Phase 2 modification, the
    extended warranty will be honored for 5 years or 60,000
    miles, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of
    the completion of Phase 2.
I don't seem to understand this clause of when the warranty expires!
The fix is approved and applicable only for 2015 model cars, so why is the 5 years (since Phase 1) and 11 years (since original in-service) coming into picture. Isn't the 11 years clause clearly greater?
Do I have coverage till 2026/162k miles? :confused:
Anybody gotten their head around this?
It's 11 years / 162,000 miles , or 5 years / 60 000 miles from the time you get the emissions fix, whatever is greater .

So imagine if you already have 162,000 miles , you'd get another 5 year 60 000 mile warranty. That make sense ?

Given that the vast majority of people on a 2015 have nowhere near 162000 , I would just think of it as 11 year / 162k from in service date .
 

fredthe

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Bowie, MD
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2013 Passat SEL Premium DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagon SEL DSG
It's 11 years / 162,000 miles , or 5 years / 60 000 miles from the time you get the emissions fix, whatever is greater .

So imagine if you already have 162,000 miles , you'd get another 5 year 60 000 mile warranty. That make sense ?

Given that the vast majority of people on a 2015 have nowhere near 162000 , I would just think of it as 11 year / 162k from in service date .
Good point. It works well for the high-milers: if you are over 102k at the 1st or 2nd fix, you get additional coverage. If course you are getting less compensation, so it's probably an even trade.
 

flargabarg

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2011 Touareg Lux TDI
Dang, now we know the reason that they cheated. The oxidation catalyst wears out quickly enough when used at full spec that if you have less than 40k on your car they need to replace it, then replace it a second time. That's an expensive consumable and explains why they kept cheating even when the entire system was there.
 

e909

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May 15, 2016
Location
Edmonton AB
TDI
15 MK7 TDI
Any guesses as to the cost of replacing the DPF, DOC , SCR is?

I'm also assuming that these cars will effectively be junk after one of these components goes past 160k miles?
 

r11

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Mar 6, 2012
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NJ
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2012 Passat TDI SE 6MT (BB'd), 2015 Passat TDI SE 6MT
Interesting language. It almost seems that they'd bump, for G3 vehicles, the wty by 60K/5Y during 1st visit. And then do the same, again, during 2nd visit year later.

So, if you drive 30K/Y, you'd get 90K total wty out of it ? :)

If guess in prior post is correct and they had sub-par Nox cat, the new one is more efficient for sure, but we dont know its life-span. Noone does, as they simply couldn't test it for long enough.

Would be nice if they honored the emission equipment wty for lifetime after the fix.

And the biggest question of them all - after all the mods, are G3s by-the-book compliant ? Or only compliant with settlement NOx #s
 

WhatFloor

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Dec 22, 2014
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Québec City
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Golf 2015 TDI S Manual (Purchased new in 2017)
timeline

i'm keeping the car now, this is a great deal

is anyone tracking that there is a major incentive to show up to phase 2 with 110,000km? i mean a new SCR, CAT, DPF means you can easily take your car to 300,000km without worrying much

if you show up with less than 110,000km you will get a new CAT before 210,000km but i suspect the SCR/DPF could fail earlier than expected. the warranty is great but you might find yourself with a DPF/SCR fail in 2027-2030. however if you get a brand new system during the phase 2 aren't you stacking the deck in your favour?

the beauty of this is that i want to drive the car until 2031. so only 5 years without coverage. by that time it will have been 11 years since i paid 20k all in for a new TDI.... factoring in the 7k which is to be returned (Canadian deal)

honestly i can't sell this car. this is far too good of a deal. thoughts?
 

rotarykid

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Piedmont of N.C. & the plains of Colorado
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1997 Passat TDI White,99.5 Blue Jetta TDI
No, you are reading too much into it.
150,000 miles is what EPA defines the useful life of the emission control system to be.
That does not mean the vehicle has a self-destruct timer set at 150,001 miles.
Useful Service life means they must meet the agreed to limits on emissions up to 150,000 miles, VWAG will guarantee this with an extended warranty up to this point.....But they will continue to run long after this point if taken care of.....

As stated in the booklet the change in components will be carried out once an automatic has surpassed the 40k mile point/70k mile point on manual trans cars with the E288 engine.....

It looks to me like they are planning these upgrades to be done at the point the added emissions equipment function is likely to be detrimental on existing parts...The change in parts guaranteeing emissions function fully until 150k miles are reached ending VWAG liability on meeting original emissions standards...
 

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
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Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Lots of weasel words in there, especially when it talks about how people shouldn't notice a diminished driving experience.

They don't really like modifications as noted at the bottom of page 12.

I am wondering about that phase 2 part replacement. Is it the same parts, or updated parts? My guess is that it is updated parts after reading the bottom of page 12.

The other thing I thought about was the turned in cars. The eligible ones will probably get updated and put back into service. I can imagine the person doing that job over and over and over. They would probably plug in, start the reprogramming program then read their book while it does it's stuff. Move on to the next one: wash, rinse, repeat.
 
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