Is there a Flash Tuner able to return to PREVIOUS stock tune?

Per the title:

Anyone know of a flash tuner (like the KermaTDI Q-PRO or similar) that would allow me to return to the previous stock file AFTER a dealer flash update?

The specific scenario would be after the emissions fix (for the sake of the question, let's pretend that it'll go down as planned).

What I would like to do is download my current stock tune, get the fix, and IF my economy tanks, replace the new flash with my current tune.

I'm NOT wanting or worried about an enhanced tune- just want my car to be the way it is now once a fix is applied- or returned to it.

Thanks..

The tuner I use sent me a flash unit that copied my original file that I sent to him to modify and/or verify, and he sent me a modified tune back. The "original" file was still on the flasher in case I need to put it back on. My point is, as far as I know any flash unit should be able to do that. The question becomes are you willing to buy one so you won't have to worry about what the dealer does to your vehicle's ECU or do you want to rent one from one of the companies that sells upgrade tunes? I will guess most of the companies that sell tunes are going to want to rent you a programmer unless their fund generating file is going on it. I could be wrong. Actually, I hope I am wrong.

Flashzilla for example will store your stock tune and you can flash it back later on. They are under 200.

no this is not possible with the tools that are used by tuning companies. Even for master tools. Even if we get a complete backup of the ecu on the bench, it can't be restored, even on the bench, after the mothership dinks with your ecu.

I could get very in depth about the reasons why but here's the tldr version.

The tools on the market nowadays do not change the whole ecu, only some limited areas that are relevant to tuning. On the other hand, the dealer ODIS system can access all of the ecu via the mothership in germany, and it can do things that are not possible in the aftermarket. Once they update the ecu, we have to start over again with a tune based on that new software version. They are not interchangeable! (as a general rule, there are exceptions of course, but based on my experience with the various updates this update is involved enough that it will add quite a few new functions that shift the offsets of other data and eliminate the interchangeability)


None of this will be of any concern to the end user however, becuase there will be no benefit to reverting to an older "pre-dieselgate" version. Any of the changes that affect drivability or fuel economy or power can and will be improved by a tune even after the update. In fact, I suspect the cars will actually be BETTER than they were before. You are getting the experience of 2016 technology vs 2007/8 when the Gen1 cars were first designed.

Qpro users are instructed to return the ecu to the stock tune before taking the car to the dealer for any reason. Doing so allows the unit to read the new stock file and then that one can get the tuning treatment.

Thanks for the replies.

So, looks like I need to find a product that I can update post-fix (if needed) that has a 'tune' that leans towards economy vs. performance, or enhances both.

I have a 118-mile commute door-to-door and that's pretty much all I use my car for, so economy is what I'm looking for more than anything else.

Thanks again...

We will be able to write a " like it was " type of tune after, but as Kerma said likely just getting a new tune after the fix will be the best way anyway, be it for economy or power, or both.

Keir@malonetuning.com said:

We will be able to write a " like it was " type of tune after, but as Kerma said likely just getting a new tune after the fix will be the best way anyway, be it for economy or power, or both.

Click to expand...

Good to know. Thank you.

I don't know if this really helps you, but any tool which can handle factory update files like the SGO/FRF updates should be able to handle an OBD flash and in theory could backdate. But, this is a serious 'hook up a battery charger and if it stops you've probably bricked the ECU' sort of situation that could probably be only fixed in boot. And, in all likelihood, it's probably not necessary. From what I've studied in the updates so far the changes look fairly small.

I want to make something clear.

You can't go back to the exact same software version as before.

But this is an "insider baseball" type of technicality. It does not matter to the end user. Not in the least.

The end user will be able to have their tune after the update. Same performance, same economy, all the good stuff will still be there just like before. They will not be able to tell any difference from the way it was from before.

There's just a couple of extra steps to get there.

With older cars you could use a device that connects directly to contacts on the ECU circuit board to read and write the ECU in "Background Debug Mode."

BDM 100, is once such device, for example.

It can read and write the EEPROM, internal flash memory, and external flash memory. This makes it possible to copy one ECU onto another so the second ECU becomes a clone of the original, including immobilizer data, etc. As far as the car is concerned, they're both the same ECU.

I'm guessing from what Kerma said that this is no longer an option with newer cars. No similar method or tool exists (that is available to consumers)? The technique was specific to a certain family of Motorola processors, so it's not a surprise if newer ECUs don't have this feature/vulnerability.

Mike_04GolfTDI said:

I'm guessing from what Kerma said that this is no longer an option with newer cars. No similar method or tool exists (that is available to consumers)?

Click to expand...

that is correct.

The newer tricore based ecus use something called Jtag that is similar (on the surface) to BDM.

However, the older BDM-capable cars did not have memory areas that are protected by OTP. The newer tricore have OTP blocks that are written once then locked. This means you can't clone an ecu like you could before, without actually replacing the actual tricore processor chip- which is a BGA and therefore a PITA to work with. I'm not going to say it's "impossible" because there is always a way... if effort and expense and time and convenience is no object. For consumer purposes it is extremely not practical or cost effective to clone a tricore ecu. There are ways, however, to work with the data so that you can use multiple ECUs in the same car if you wish. But it will NOT be a copy or clone, even if the end user can't tell any difference. So maybe there's a distinction that needs to be understood between the result as seen by the end user and the "nuts and bolts" details that it actually takes to achieve that desired outcome. Yes it is the same from your point of view, but no, it is not the same, if that makes sense. Depends how deep you want to look.

The USA spec cars are a special unicorn as well. Even when compared to what laymen might consider "the same car" (other EDC17CP14 in golf MK6 140 hp for example). If you use the techniques for working with euro cars it will brick some of the usa-spec ECU. But that's getting off topic a bit.

Mike_04GolfTDI said:

With older cars you could use a device that connects directly to contacts on the ECU circuit board to read and write the ECU in "Background Debug Mode."

BDM 100, is once such device, for example.

It can read and write the EEPROM, internal flash memory, and external flash memory. This makes it possible to copy one ECU onto another so the second ECU becomes a clone of the original, including immobilizer data, etc. As far as the car is concerned, they're both the same ECU.

I'm guessing from what Kerma said that this is no longer an option with newer cars. No similar method or tool exists (that is available to consumers)? The technique was specific to a certain family of Motorola processors, so it's not a surprise if newer ECUs don't have this feature/vulnerability.

Click to expand...

EDC17 has an OTP section that makes it impossible to just cut and paste everything into another ECU. There is a workaround for it, but it's much more complex than what you're talking about on EDC16.

Thanks for the "inside track" guys. I always love learning more about how the software in these cars works.

I would ask for a more in-depth discussion on this... but I suppose that would get into your trade secrets?

-J

Lots of good information in this thread, thanks everyone!