Timing Belt Change / Cam is very hard to pull through!

I followed the beautiful timing belt change photo description in the articles section of Fred's website...but I have stalled. I am at the point where the belt is on, and I need to pull the cam through one full rotation...but that compression at the 1/4 around point is tight! I didn't have an official cam pulley tool at first, so I made one like MetalNerd offers.

I actually have backed-up and repeated the procedure to ensure all is aligned and then all pins and holding plates are removed before attempting to pull on that cam pulley, but it's so tight after 1/4 turn that I don't want to break anything by pulling any harder.

Suggestions or additional things to check from those whose are experienced timing belt changers please!

Thanks,
Brad
Wilmington, DE
'03 Golf tdi - "Chicken Little"

Pull from the crank bolt in the CORRECT dirrection of travel only. NEVER backwards. It will be tight but it will turn over. Remember it's 19.5 to 1.

Do as Jason says with 19mm 12 point socket on the crank bolt. I use a 3/4 drive. Others are able to use 1/2 drive but not with a short ratchet.

If you're still having trouble rotating the engine, remove the glow plugs... that'll eliminate the compression resistance...

(You're _certain_ that the crankshaft didn't rotate while you were putting the belt on the rest of the pulleys ??? The TDC mark was still aligned and the camshaft lock bar was in place? You're sure that both intake valves on Cyl.1 were closed when you were doing this (meaning, you didn't do this with the camshaft 180 degrees out ????)

Yuri.

Thanks for the great response so far...sure glad I paid the $100/year to subscribe here....kidding...but worth far more!

Okay, I have been pulling in a clockwise direction (toward the front of the car, or to my right) as you face the cam pulley. Hope I haven't hosed that whole process!

You say to turn the crank bolt with a 19mm, 12 pointer socket with a long arm ...that's the bolt holding the cam pulley on, right? (cranks, cams ...loads of terminology, geez I'm slow!) That's the big one I just torqued down to 33 ft/lbs a second ago...

Pretty sure nothing moved while I had it all lined up. The flywheel tick mark was giving me trouble at first and I took a super long flat blade and a clamp to hold it in place. Also, the injection pump pin is at the 12 o'clock position.

Removing the glow plugs...excellent tip!

Thanks everyone for your excellent input. We'll give it a try tomorrow ...green beer on the mind at present.

Cheers,
Brad

You'll find the cam bolt is only a 6 point bolt. The crank is at the bottom of the engine. Turn in clockwise (bolt tightening direction).

Pump pin should be at the 1-o'clock position, not 12 !!!!!!!!!

Crankshaft is at the bottom... it turns at twice the rate of the camshaft... Most here would have you rotate the engine from the 12-point 19mm bolt on the crankshaft, but at least one notable Guru here says to turn it with the camshaft pulley...

In any case, if you remove the glow plugs, it should be quite easy to turn - unless you have something way off and a piston is coming into contact with a valve... (make sure not to get any dirt into the glow plug holes if you remove them... run some compressed air to blow off dirt before you loosen them...)

Yuri.

CRANK, not CAM

Your 3:13 reply again said you were trying to turn the cam bolt!!!!! Remember the cam turns at half speed compared to the engine, so your mechanical advantage is 1/2, or you are trying to turn the engine two revolutions when you would turn the cam one!

Turn the CRANK !!!!!!!


John C

I'm guessing something is off... The compression-based "stiffness" should dissipate after a couple of seconds and you should be able to keep on turning... however, if something mechanical is interfering...

Better double-check everything!! What type of camshaft locking tool did you use? The one in the PDF file isn't generally available... Did you remove the valve cover and are you sure that the 2 lobes for cylinder # 1 (that's the one at the end of the engine that has the timing belt) were facing up ????

Keep us posted...

Yuri.

John C said:

Your 3:13 reply again said you were trying to turn the cam bolt!!!!! Remember the cam turns at half speed compared to the engine, so your mechanical advantage is 1/2, or you are trying to turn the engine two revolutions when you would turn the cam one!

Turn the CRANK !!!!!!!


John C

Click to expand...

I never use the cam bolt (or cam sproket) to turn the engine over. I always use the crank bolt. Remember that when the engine is running all the power to drive the pulleys/gears/sprokets comes from the crank shaft. Use the krank shaft bolt. You'll be glad you did(less stress on the belt this way also).

You always use the drive gear (crank) to turn the driven gear (cam, IP). Never turn it from the cam gear, you can do it 1300 times but it only takes once to have it screw up. Besides its much easier to turn the smaller gear. I bought and 18" half inch drive ratchet just for doing this. My 3/4 drive is just to heavy. Good luck.

Greg

Gents,

Many thanks for all the excellent advice. I have a laundry list of things to check tomorrow once I get the snow off of the car.

I will be sure to focus on the crank (not cam pulley) for turning the engine through. I took the valve cover off in the early stages of the belt change and the #1 lobes are both up (so I believe I'm not 180 degrees out).

On the other hand, my injection pump pin may be off since it's at 12 o'clock and not a distinct 1 o'clock position. I bought the flat cam locking tool so it seems to be doing the trick there.

I'll keep you posted...anxious to get her in the timing mode and on the road!

Thanks,
Brad

BlueJay83 said:

my injection pump pin may be off since it's at 12 o'clock and not a distinct 1 o'clock position.

Click to expand...

Take a look at the pictures at the top of the following thread (Drivbiwire's re-timing guide)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1611859

This is only for the pump pin... your problems with rotating the engine stem from another source...

Yuri

More timing belt issues....

Now I'm having problems just turning the crank! I took the belt off, the tensioner out, removed the glow plugs and now the crank turns more, but it still stops.

It's tough to get a good pull on it since I'm under the car with limited leverage, but I can't figure out how this "crank lock" happened. I have rechecked everything and I'm going in the right direction on the crank too.

I did install a new water pump prior to fitting the new belt, but it spins freely as it should.

The car ran fine a week ago before I dived into this project, and, while it's been cold here (25C at the worst), I can't figure it out.

Will turning the crank independent of the cam or the inj pump mess things up? The valve cover is off, the #1 lobes are up, and the engine is jacked up since the motor mount is off. I've gotta be missing something, just can't nail it down!!!

Advice please oh tdi Gurus....

Brad
Call my cell!!! 302-377-4479

Brad- stop!!!
You are working on an interference engine. If you remove the belt the cam shaft is no longer turning with the crank. Eventually a piston will contact a valve!!

Try this:
turn the camshaft clockwise a bit, then the crank a bit, to keep the valves and pistons from contacting each other. As you approach the point where the #1 cam lobes are pointing up, check for the TDC mark on the flywheel. You should be able to nurse it back to this orientation. When you do, lock the cam (and the crank if you have that lock). Then find the IP locking point and insert the pin. Now follow the DB instructions to install the belt. You should be OK.

Don't forget to reinstall the GP's

Will turning the crank independent of the cam or the inj pump mess things up?

Click to expand...

YES! Without a belt there is no sync between the pulleys... obviously you will have piston to valve contact as they aren't moving in sync with one-another.

Not too sure what to say, are you turning the crank without a belt on there? If so, you will definately hit a stop, that's the valves hitting the piston. If you weren't able to get everything lined up properly prior to taking off the belt, you may want to reinstall the belt and try to get it to a point where you can line things up. If that isn't working so well, you can pull the cam off and then get to crank TDC, then get the cam back on as close to cam TDC as possible ( horizontal cam lock, cyl 1 lobes both up ). Then, you would lock the cam. So at this point you would have locked crank, cam and then hopefully a pinned pump. Belt on, tension and you should be OK.

You may want to enlist someone local to assist you at this point. Just the thought of the pistons hitting the valves even with just hand-tool force makes me cringe...

This may sound really obvious... but you never know... Did you put the car in gear before removing the harmonic balancer bolts, and perhaps leave it in gear?

That shouldn't matter. The right wheel needs to be off the car anyway. The differential will allow the engine to turn in gear with one wheel in the air.

Where is this new (to me) focus on not using the cam pulley to rotate the engine coming from? If there is a general concensus that this is a better procedure, why don't we get the bible editted to reflect this. The A4 Timing Belt Change Procedure is probably one of the most used and relied upon How To's here.

I have read some mention about the cam bearings not being as beefy as the crank bearings. I am sure this is true, but I thought the beauty of a long torque arm was that it made the majority of the force rotational, not linear. So our big blue tool will create 85%+ rotational force and <15% linear on the bearing surfaces.... I can see if someone is standing on the short handle of a ratchet on the cam pulley bolt, how this could put a lot of linear force against the bearings, but not so with a longer torque arm.

In any case, if it is agreed that there should be a deviation from the procedure, what is stopping the update of that procedure? I am sure there are other changes or clarifications that may be desired at this point.

meganuke said:

That shouldn't matter. The right wheel needs to be off the car anyway. The differential will allow the engine to turn in gear with one wheel in the air.

Click to expand...

The only time I take the wheel off is if I have to replace the crank seal.

Greg

Left it in gear...thanks! Lots of frustration for a simple goof...

Brad

chromeBuddha said:

Where is this new (to me) focus on not using the cam pulley to rotate the engine coming from? If there is a general concensus that this is a better procedure, why don't we get the bible editted to reflect this. The A4 Timing Belt Change Procedure is probably one of the most used and relied upon How To's here.

I have read some mention about the cam bearings not being as beefy as the crank bearings. I am sure this is true, but I thought the beauty of a long torque arm was that it made the majority of the force rotational, not linear. So our big blue tool will create 85%+ rotational force and <15% linear on the bearing surfaces.... I can see if someone is standing on the short handle of a ratchet on the cam pulley bolt, how this could put a lot of linear force against the bearings, but not so with a longer torque arm.

In any case, if it is agreed that there should be a deviation from the procedure, what is stopping the update of that procedure? I am sure there are other changes or clarifications that may be desired at this point.

Click to expand...

The .pdf has to be edited by the author. If Pete doesn't agree with most of us, he has no incentive to do so.

I would like to see a correction of the section on final timing, which is wron. I would also like to see the "no start" post he has incorporated into the .pdf.

I would also like to see a photo added about the crank marks. Makes it really easy to spin the engine to near perfect position before moving to the flywheel to check TDC.

Is there anyone close to Brad that could give him a hand? This is at the point where another set of knowledgable eyes is going to be helpful.

chromeBuddha said:

Where is this new (to me) focus on not using the cam pulley to rotate the engine coming from?

Click to expand...

It's sort of developed over the past couple of years, although Drivbiwire insists that it's safer than using the crank bolt...

The theory is that it puts too much unnatural pressure on the tensioner and lower small idler, something with which I have sympathy, although I still have the utmost respect for Pete...

I've had my engine rotated via the camshaft sprocket on 2 occasions (1st timing belt change and a subsequent intake manifold / head port cleaning), and the TB system lasted over 100,000 miles... 'till the next TB change - where CraigB convinced me to turn the engine using the crankshaft...

Yuri.

BlueJay83 said:

Left it in gear...thanks! Lots of frustration for a simple goof...

Click to expand...

At least we know that your clutch isn't slipping...

Nice going!

Yuri.

BlueJay83 said:

Left it in gear...thanks! Lots of frustration for a simple goof...

Brad

Click to expand...

Don't ask me why I would think to check that - it has nothing to do with the fact that I did the exact same thing...

meganuke said:

That shouldn't matter. The right wheel needs to be off the car anyway. The differential will allow the engine to turn in gear with one wheel in the air.

Click to expand...

I used ramps myself, not jackstands, so the wheel stayed on.

FWIW, I'm not dead set against using the cam pulley, but the crank is easier and most assuredly the better way.

Once I'm at the point that I want to verify the belt index, I get in there with a 1/2" 12pt 19mm ratchet and crank till I feel 4 distinct compression events, then I remove the ratchet and use the cam pulley to fine tune the cam so the lock will fit in and then check the crank and pump marks. Putting a lot of force through the cam which has just been indexed may cause slippage and the design of the system is such that all rotation force does come from the crank so it forces the slack up and into the tensioner side whereas using the cam, it pulls from the tensioning side and forces the belt into the pump side...

the thread where it was revealed

chromeBuddha said:

Where is this new (to me) focus on not using the cam pulley to rotate the engine coming from? If there is a general concensus that this is a better procedure, why don't we get the bible editted to reflect this..

Click to expand...

Here is the thread where it was revealed and the post regarding why the correct procedure is the crank pulley.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1330938

I never read that PDF prior to this and did not realize you folks were using the cam pulley.

ymz said:

Broken link... you meant:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1330938

Yuri.

Click to expand...

Fixed, thanks