Volvo going hybrid or electric only

tikal said:

In this context, then diesel engine makes more sense for an all-around (urban/road) larger vehicle such as the Volvo XC60 (I realize this will not be available in the US with a diesel engine) as opposed to a XC60 with a gasoline-hybrid engine.

Even environmentally speaking a Volvo XC60 with a diesel engine would have an smaller overall life cycle footprint than an equivalent gasoline-hybrid vehicle (reference Argonne National Labs studies and so forth).

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Perhaps... it depends on the type of hybrid and the driving conditions. Certainly not for a PHEV.

I would hope that all of Volvos cars will have a plug. I've always thought it was absurd that you'd spend all that money on a battery and traction motor but not go the extra small step and add a charger. The primary reason seems to be confusion. Consumers don't understand the benefits of plugging in a car that can still use gasoline and OEMs don't want to educate them.

nwdiver said:

I would hope that all of Volvos cars will have a plug. I've always thought it was absurd that you'd spend all that money on a battery and traction motor but not go the extra small step and add a charger. The primary reason seems to be confusion. Consumers don't understand the benefits of plugging in a car that can still use gasoline and OEMs don't want to educate them.

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It isn't just the "small step" of adding a charger and a plug. A typical hybrid has a battery ~4 kWh, but a PHEV needs ~10 kWh to get a realistic range of 20 miles, or an even bigger battery for an SUV. The new Chrysler Pacifica PHEV minivan has a 16 kWh battery to achieve it's 30 mile electric-only range.

This isn't about educating consumers but expecting them to pay the absurd expense of a charger & plug in a car that only yields ~8 miles on a charge.

Also, it's more like ~1 kWh in conventional hybrids.

The original Prius Plug-In had 4.4 kWh, and only the gentlest of drivers could keep the engine from firing in normal driving. Even if you were an EPA Test Standard Driver, you only got 6 miles into the test before you hit a power demand that required the engine. Ultimately, as far as I'm aware, most PiPs simply don't get plugged in, for that matter - most people bought them for a California HOV sticker, not to actually plug it in.

Oilerlord said:

This isn't about educating consumers but expecting them to pay the absurd expense of a charger & plug in a car that only yields ~8 miles on a charge.

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A 8 mile range is enough to make a PHEV 100% electric for a lot of people. I have a 6 mile commute with chargers at work. Going electric for that commute would save >$100 per year. The cost to add a 1kW charger would be <$400. Having an external energy source is also really helpful for conditioning the car before leaving. In the winter my car is warm and defrosted or cooled in the summer.

Beyond that the traction motor and electronics aren't cheap either. The ability to use another fuel source dramatically increases the utility of the car for small increase in the overall cost. Perhaps as the cost of batteries approaches $100/kWh slightly larger packs and PHEVs will become more common.

Time will tell which route Volvo goes. The XC 60 is a PHEV with a 10kWh pack. And they're gonna need to educate their customers. My neighbors won a Fisker Karma in Vegas and have never once plugged it in. They don't understand that for every $1 they spend on electricity they save ~$4 in gas....

That's nice but I can tell you that my former employer would never let me charge up for free. They had energy auditor going to every location and they had video cameras on the fleet gasoline pumps. It was also a 6 mile drive to work though.

I really do like the idea of the Pacifica plug in hybrid though. Of course the husband would have to plug it in and unplug it everyday for the wives(runs for cover now).

What's the deal on battery pack waste in today's age? Based on my common sense knowledge, the lack of common knowledge of hybrid battery waste is what really gets my goat. That would be the overarching problem. The amount of resources to build the battery that lasts for 60-80k miles then dies. Have we figured out a way to properly recycle them yet or are we just burying them?

gulfcoastguy said:

That's nice but I can tell you that my former employer would never let me charge up for free.

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Who said anything about it being free? If you're charging before noon before peak use hits or if your employer has solar PV typical commercial rates are ~$0.03/kWh. So even if they charge you double that's still ~70% cheaper than gas.

jhax said:

Have we figured out a way to properly recycle them yet or are we just burying them?

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The materials in an EV battery are valuable. Very few of them are likely to end up in a landfill. There's already a pretty active market for battery modules salvaged from wrecked Teslas. The Gigafactory is being designed as a one-stop-shop for Tesla. Old batteries come in and new batteries go out.

There aren't any EV batteries with an average lifespan of <100k miles. 2k cycles is typical. Even with a LEAF that's ~150k miles. Smaller PHEV batteries that experience heavier cycling appear to have a more robust chemistry. Even after ~100k miles older Volts are still holding strong.

jhax said:

What's the deal on battery pack waste in today's age? Based on my common sense knowledge, the lack of common knowledge of hybrid battery waste is what really gets my goat. That would be the overarching problem. The amount of resources to build the battery that lasts for 60-80k miles then dies. Have we figured out a way to properly recycle them yet or are we just burying them?

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https://youtu.be/Va1-chPALxE?t=6m35s

That should give you an idea, Eric's brilliant and there are a lot of big recycling companies out there. They're working on a 100kw solar array with a megawatt of backup power. I've got a lot of laptop batteries dismantled myself currently. On an order of 14 6 cell packs I only had 6 cells below 2.5V and most are 2000mahr or above Sanyos. In anything other than a moving vehicle energy density would be fine even if it's down to 50-80% of original capacity and lower C values are used. Rare to get that good of results, usually more like 60% are good, but still, that's a great return when you're paying like $1/cell tops for dead packs.

nwdiver said:

Time will tell which route Volvo goes. The XC 60 is a PHEV with a 10kWh pack. And they're gonna need to educate their customers.

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I don't think would-be Volvo buyers will need much educating to figure out that spending an extra $11,400 to get up to 15 miles on a charge doesn't make much sense.

Also, looking at things... $11,400 is only going from the base model (T5) to the T8. However, the T8 is based on the T6, and is $8000 more than that model. (And, it's higher performance than either the T5 or the T6, so if that's a priority for you, then the T8 adds value other than its electric range.)

And, a 10.4 kWh battery qualifies for $5169 of federal tax credit, making it a $6231 premium over the T5, and a $2831 premium over the T6.

And then you've got state credits - for instance, in Colorado, there's a $5000 state tax credit that makes the T8 cheaper than the T6, and not much more expensive than the T5.

Of course, the T8 does have the downside of the added complexity of its engine over the T5 - the T6/T8 engine is both turbocharged and supercharged, and 316 hp is a lot out of a 2.0.

bhtooefr said:

And, a 10.4 kWh battery qualifies for $5169 of federal tax credit, making it a $6231 premium over the T5, and a $2831 premium over the T6.

And then you've got state credits - for instance, in Colorado, there's a $5000 state tax credit that makes the T8 cheaper than the T6, and not much more expensive than the T5.

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That's if you live in an area that offers said taxpayer-funded subsidies. In the end, someone pays that extra $8000 or $11,400 premium. In winter climates, those 15 electric miles will shrink to 8 miles or less. Regardless of who pays, there isn't much value there.

If your priority is the electric miles, yes.

If your priority is 400 horsepower, well...

Oilerlord said:

I don't think would-be Volvo buyers will need much educating to figure out that spending an extra $11,400 to get up to 15 miles on a charge doesn't make much sense.

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That's not PHEV vs HEV. Volvo has already stated they will be 100% hybrid/electric. My point is that HEV => PHEV is worth the cost and consumers need to understand the difference.

Here's an apples-apples PHEV vs HEV comparison. Adding a plug and a slightly larger battery to the Cmax adds ~$3k. For ~20 miles of all electric range.

Allowing most people to be 100% electric for their commute.

Sadly most people I've spoken to simply don't understand the PHEV concept. Ford makes it even more confusing by adding charging options to the hybrid page (a car that lacks a plug). Here's hoping Volvo does a better job... unfortunately that's a REALLY low bar

So call up the engineers and tell them they are doing it wrong.....

I can already see that adding PHEV is a lot of expense and complexity for little payback.

turbocharged798 said:

So call up the engineers and tell them they are doing it wrong.....

I can already see that adding PHEV is a lot of expense and complexity for little payback.

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If Volvo is going to spend $7k to make a car hybrid... why not spend ~20% more to give it the ability to use the grid for fuel?

In this case even the math makes sense... $7k in increase mpg by what? ~20%? Why not ~$3k more to increase mpg(e) by 200%?

I don't have to tell the engineers they're doing it wrong. Elon Musk has been sending that message for >10 years

nwdiver said:

Adding a plug and a slightly larger battery to the Cmax[/URL] adds ~$3k. For ~20 miles of all electric range.
Allowing most people to be 100% electric for their commute.
Sadly most people I've spoken to simply don't understand the PHEV concept.

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If someone doesn't understand how to plug in a device that requires electricity for a charge - no one can help them. I think the issue with the Cmax is more about packaging than it is educating people about PHEV's. That huge battery pack that takes up a lot of space in the trunk is a non starter for potential buyers. It was for me. I'm guessing Volvo will do a better job packaging the battery so it doesn't sacrifice cargo area.

Oilerlord said:

If someone doesn't understand how to plug in a device that requires electricity for a charge - no one can help them.

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That's not the issue. It's marketing and education. And PHEVs don't 'require' electricity which adds to the confusion... Plenty of people with a ~10 mile commute go car shopping looking for a car that's efficient. They're continuously guided away from PHEVs even if they're a good fit. When they ask questions the sales team often doesn't have the answer. They don't understand how a car that uses electricity AND gasoline is better than one that just uses gasoline.

The number of people I've spoke to about my car that think generating electricity with the front wheels while the rear wheels push would be helpful is depressing. Unless dealers take the time to explain a little physics to this demographic they won't sell vehicles that would best fit a lot of people.

The Volt my sister bought is a great fit for her. She has a 20 mile commute and won't use a drop of gasoline. Most car dealers would not have tried to sell her that car. She had to ask about it. Most people don't understand how a car that uses electricity AND gasoline can save them money on fuel IF they plug it in regularly....

nwdiver said:

Unless dealers take the time to explain a little physics to this demographic they won't sell vehicles that would best fit a lot of people.

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It doesn't take a lesson in physics to understand how they work, and the "demographic" is pretty much anyone that drives a car. People already know how to plug in their phones. Dealers should start with that, then go onto saving money on gasoline. These are concepts people understand. Making it more complicated than it is won't sell them.

Oilerlord said:

These are concepts people understand.

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Really? So all the people that tell me I should put generators in my front wheels so I can drive forever or think the Prius is better than the Volt because you get 'free' energy while you drive so you save $$$ by never plugging it in are joking? 'Cause they don't sound like they're joking.

There's a fundamental lack of understanding of energy because it's not something people deal with. As a PV installer I encounter this frequently... even from educated people. An engineer at work once asked what good 10kW of solar would do if he uses 1500kWh/mo....... the percentage of people that understand that the advantage of electric is that it uses ~70% less energy is probably <50%.... I've seen that on this forum. A lot of people think if you save $1 on gas you're just going to spend $1 more on electricity.

Here's a perfect example of the problem; a buyers guide for a PHEV vs HEV. You can't even tell which is the PHEV let alone important specs like EV range...

Hopefully when Volvo says Hybrid or Electric they mean PHEV or BEV. Then there won't be any confusion. Plug in your car and and give it gas when the little light comes on... which if you're plugging your car in is about once a year

If that were to be the case, the gas engine would probably be glued up with bad gas and not work when needed. I hope I'll be interested in a pure EV some day but I live in a sparse region with severely cold winters, we would be the last in line to purchase them. Hybrids seem to have the worst or both worlds: all the complexity and service consumables of the internal combustion engine with expensive new battery technology.

I don't know, the prius isn't for me, but they seem to be very reliable and cost effective. Take a look at the NYC taxi fleet. They wouldn't be using them so much if there were reliability or cost issues.

turbobrick240 said:

I don't know, the prius isn't for me, but they seem to be very reliable and cost effective. Take a look at the NYC taxi fleet. They wouldn't be using them so much if there were reliability or cost issues.

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They make great taxi cabs because people don't have to stay in them very long.

da.hs said:

If that were to be the case, the gas engine would probably be glued up with bad gas and not work when needed.

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I don't know about other PHEVs but I know the Volt is programmed to use 1 tank per year. If you're still on the same tank of gas you were a year ago the Volt will run the ICE regardless of the battery state just to burn the gas.

There's very little maintenance on the electric side of the Volt. For once chevy did it right. The Volt has been remarkably trouble free and the batteries have held up incredibly well.

turbobrick240 said:

I don't know, the prius isn't for me, but they seem to be very reliable and cost effective. Take a look at the NYC taxi fleet. They wouldn't be using them so much if there were reliability or cost issues.

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I wasn't trying to say the Prius is a bad car. I was just highlighting a significant misunderstanding I encounter in regards to PHEVs vs HEVs. Some people view the option to charge the Volt as a flaw instead of a feature. 1) You don't 'need' to plug the Volt in 2) There's significant savings by charging it regularly. There's a significant number of people that all things being equal would choose a car that lacked a plug because they think the plug less hybrid is tapping into some kind of 'magic' energy source the PHEV isn't using.......

aja8888 said:

They make great taxi cabs because people don't have to stay in them very long.

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Gen 4's quite a lot better in that regard, though - benchmarking the Mk7 Golf helped them a lot. And, the driver has to stay in there for a long time...

nwdiver said:

Really? So all the people that tell me I should put generators in my front wheels so I can drive forever or think the Prius is better than the Volt because you get 'free' energy while you drive so you save $$$ by never plugging it in are joking? 'Cause they don't sound like they're joking.

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No, the point I was making is that people have generally figured out how to plug in a cell phone. In explaining a plug-in hybrid - we should start with that instead of trying to make potential buyers feel stupid.

I think you're missing the bigger picture. You're assuming that people want to learn all about the differences between ICEV's, HEV's, PHEV's, BEV's, and all of the different charging standards, acronyms, and tech stuff a few of us find so fascinating. The reality is...if they don't give a damn about it, there is little motivation to learn.

I noticed that Costco has a home charging unit on line for about $400 US. Just need a 240 plug for it. Told the wife we should buy the charger as the first step towards her next commuter car.

kjclow said:

Told the wife we should buy the charger as the first step towards her next commuter car.

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I think that's a bad idea. I'd recommend buying the car first, then shopping for a suitable EVSE to fit your needs.

My EV is capable of L2 charging up to 10kW, but based on the 6.6kW charger in the car I *thought* I was going to buy, I bought an EVSE capable of up to 7.6 kW AND installed a 50 amp circuit instead of going with 60 amps or more. There have been a few occasions that a shorter charging time would have come in handy.

nwdiver said:

I don't know about other PHEVs but I know the Volt is programmed to use 1 tank per year. If you're still on the same tank of gas you were a year ago the Volt will run the ICE regardless of the battery state just to burn the gas.

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After six weeks of non use, The Volt will also turn the ICE on for a short time, to freshen the gas that has been sitting in the lines.

Oilerlord said:

I think that's a bad idea. I'd recommend buying the car first, then shopping for a suitable EVSE to fit your needs.
My EV is capable of L2 charging up to 10kW, but based on the 6.6kW charger in the car I *thought* I was going to buy, I bought an EVSE capable of up to 7.6 kW AND installed a 50 amp circuit instead of going with 60 amps or more. There have been a few occasions that a shorter charging time would have come in handy.

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That was a little tounge in check moment but thanks for the input. I wouldn't buy or install a charger until I had the car. I'd want to make sure everything was going to work together.