turbo technical database

THen we all need to pull our currently "state of the art" GTDXYZVKLR" turbos again to remain being up to date *haha*

majesty78 said:

THen we all need to pull our currently "state of the art" GTDXYZVKLR" turbos again to remain being up to date *haha*

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well I do not think so, the last concept is for truck engines so far, and I am quite sure those turbos will many things but not for free...

Perhapes we have someone here that can check if this system is used on the new 12,4l diesel engine from man....

Hi everyone!
I plan to upgrade my turbo to gtb2260v from BMW. The issue is exhaust part as I'm DIY home machanic and don't have access to the machining shop. There's v-band flanges on sell but I don't have the dimensions of the turbo exhaust flange. Does anybody have the ID and OD dimensions for the exhaust flange of this turbo?
Thanks in advance!

we keep those on the shelf

TDIMeister said:

The wheel in and of itself doesn't determine the PR strongly. The tip speed (V=2*pi*radius*RPM/60, limit for state-of-the-art wheels is 560-580 m/s) and compressor housing A/R do. So, if you have a late-generation 52mm wheel spinning to 206-213k RPM and a numerically small A/R (e.g. 0.45), it will do as high a PR as the fundamental physics will allow.

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borg warner have some s400sx-e that specified for tip speed up to 607m/s

Spotted: 057145653K TURBOCHARGER TURBOLADER AUDI SQ7 4.0 TDI V8 CZAC 325kW 435KM GTD2056VZK

http://www.ebay.com/itm/182397913315

When the link disappears:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3875/057145653K_TURBOCHARGER_TURBOLADER_AUDI_SQ7_4.pdf






















325 kW in the original 4.0 V8 TDI application means each turbo supports 218 HP stock. Therefore, it's a perfect application to bridge between a GTD1752VRK and GTB2260VK(LR).

Hey guys...quick question about boost map GT1752V (max possible) with AL injectors and firads 50%...2400-3200rpm (2,2bar), 3500 (2,1bar), 3800 (2,0bar), 4000 (1,9bar), 4200 (1,8bar), 4400 (1,7bar), 4400 up (1,6bar)...
opinions?

Turbo Z said:

any way upcoming Honeywell CO2RE high efficiency serial two stage boost technologies for turbocharging where stage efficiency of 63 and 64% is mighty impressive. It means compressor and turbine efficiency is about 80%. Both Turbos using ball-bearing technologies and first turbine stage can take better use of pulses from the engine in a VNT controlled stage. As far as I know the MAN 12.4L engine use the first stage in this development, interesting to see when full utilisation of this concept is going to be shown in real

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwm62HnztQw
Surprise, surprise, they think an interstage cooler is a good thing to have...

last I spoke to honewell the molds has already been scraped...

What do you mean with -"Surprise, surprise, they think an interstage cooler is a good thing to have..."

l

TDIMeister said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwm62HnztQw
Surprise, surprise, they think an interstage cooler is a good thing to have...

Click to expand...

Wonder if it is to avoid needing exotic materials for the HP compressor stage.

Easy to use no interstage CC with a light duty engine seeing small transient spikes of full load, but an application that sees full rated output at a hundred percent duty will need a titanium HP compressor, and something other than alu for the HP compressor cover and piping if it isn't going to have an interstage CC.

your proposal will not has as high efficiency if you take away intercooling between stages, if we speak of the same engineering level
read:
-"Ultra-High Efficiency Serial TwoStage Turbocharging System for Maximum Engine Efficiency" Author: Rob Cadle, Dietmar Giebert, Ashraf Mohamed, Ronren Gu, Matthew Oakes

it describe in some degree what they where thinking of

[486] said:

Wonder if it is to avoid needing exotic materials for the HP compressor stage.

Easy to use no interstage CC with a light duty engine seeing small transient spikes of full load, but an application that sees full rated output at a hundred percent duty will need a titanium HP compressor, and something other than alu for the HP compressor cover and piping if it isn't going to have an interstage CC.

Click to expand...

I think it doesnt really add efficiency. It makes that you can use a smaller wheel in the HP unit, possibly increasing response. But from a thermodynamic point of view it doesnt matter where you cool the air, between or after stage. (Them joules you remove anyway have to brought up by either turbine stage.)

I can't find this paper online, google brings me to a listing of it on honeywell's site, and I tried searching further from that and get nothing.

The fact that cummins QSK motors run titanium compressors and cast iron compressor covers tells me that there isn't likely to be a large efficiency gain with interstage CCs, as it'd be cheaper to run a cooler than go to all that length with nonstandard materials.
They also use tens of millions of dollars of fuel in their lifecycle, so any fraction of a percentage increase in efficiency would pay off quickly.

Ruben let make some easy thermodynamic calculation

total pressure ratio 5 at one stage operation
Isentropic efficiency 80%
ideal pressure ratio with two stage is square root of 5 for smallest work
let use for simplicity that we have a perfect gas that means Cp is constant, that mean efficiency is direct depending of temperature

one stage
Temperature after compressor with 80% isentropic efficiency with inlet 20 degree C will give about 507K (234 degrees kelvin)
293*(5) in power of (0,4/1,4) divide the difference between inlet and with with 80% isentropic efficiency (464-293)/0,8=213,75 that means
507K or 234 degrees celsius
air has isentropic coefficient 1,4 (Cp/Cv) (Cv is specific heat at constant volume, Cp specific heat at constant pressure)

two stage ( for simplicity temperature after intercooler 20 degree and no pressure losses)
this will give
293*(5in power of 0,5)in power of (0,4/1,4)=368
difference 368-293=75,74
with 80% isentropic efficiency 75,74/0,8=94,67
with two stage 94,67*2=189,35 total temperature rise

so we have gain
(213,75-189,35)/213,75=0,114 that mean 11,4% in efficiency gain of divided stage operation
now this is a little bit ideal but the gain is for real and very well notice if you have experience two stage operation design to utilize this ,

since each compressor has much smaller pressure ratio, and by that lower tip speed more back swept blade can be used that mean much wider map by and that also reflect on better stage efficiency, in general the map is wider at lower pressure ratio


if the same technologies would be used in one stage as in two, one stage will have less efficiency then 80%, since same efficiency level need to use constant poly tropic efficiency and that will mean less then 80% isentropic efficiency.

though the fluid rotation i tangential direction (velocity vector C2u) will not be recovered and go to losses in two stage radial turbines, that was why they was clever to explore a axial turbine in the garret ultra high efficiency turbo before spoken of

Rub87 said:

I think it doesnt really add efficiency. It makes that you can use a smaller wheel in the HP unit, possibly increasing response. But from a thermodynamic point of view it doesnt matter where you cool the air, between or after stage. (Them joules you remove anyway have to brought up by either turbine stage.)

Click to expand...

You need to loan the conference book

the garrett lay out and some changes to the diesel engine was suppose to save 6-9% in fuel

both garret and borg warner have used titanium compressor wheel in some heavy load application since durability is better, both of them have argue technologies stealing, patent intrusion

[486] said:

I can't find this paper online, google brings me to a listing of it on honeywell's site, and I tried searching further from that and get nothing.

The fact that cummins QSK motors run titanium compressors and cast iron compressor covers tells me that there isn't likely to be a large efficiency gain with interstage CCs, as it'd be cheaper to run a cooler than go to all that length with nonstandard materials.
They also use tens of millions of dollars of fuel in their lifecycle, so any fraction of a percentage increase in efficiency would pay off quickly.

Click to expand...

Turbo Z said:

Ruben let make some easy thermodynamic calculation

total pressure ratio 5 at one stage operation
Isentropic efficiency 80%
ideal pressure ratio with two stage is square root of 5 for smallest work
let use for simplicity that we have a perfect gas that means Cp is constant, that mean efficiency is direct depending of temperature

one stage
Temperature after compressor with 80% isentropic efficiency with inlet 20 degree C will give about 507K (234 degrees kelvin)
293*(5) in power of (0,4/1,4) divide the difference between inlet and with with 80% isentropic efficiency (464-293)/0,8=213,75 that means
507K or 234 degrees celsius
air has isentropic coefficient 1,4 (Cp/Cv) (Cv is specific heat at constant volume, Cp specific heat at constant pressure)

two stage ( for simplicity temperature after intercooler 20 degree and no pressure losses)
this will give
293*(5in power of 0,5)in power of (0,4/1,4)=368
difference 368-293=75,74
with 80% isentropic efficiency 75,74/0,8=94,67
with two stage 94,67*2=189,35 total temperature rise

so we have gain
(213,75-189,35)/213,75=0,114 that mean 11,4% in efficiency gain of divided stage operation
now this is a little bit ideal but the gain is for real and very well notice if you have experience two stage operation design to utilize this ,

since each compressor has much smaller pressure ratio, and by that lower tip speed more back swept blade can be used that mean much wider map by and that also reflect on better stage efficiency, in general the map is wider at lower pressure ratio


if the same technologies would be used in one stage as in two, one stage will have less efficiency then 80%, since same efficiency level need to use constant poly tropic efficiency and that will mean less then 80% isentropic efficiency.

though the fluid rotation i tangential direction (velocity vector C2u) will not be recovered and go to losses in two stage radial turbines, that was why they was clever to explore a axial turbine in the garret ultra high efficiency turbo before spoken of

Click to expand...

I think your assumption is wrong. Its not because the air after the 2nd compressor is colder, as compared to the single or dual setup with no intercharge cooling, the overall efficiency is higher.

Lets look at it in a energy balance way. for PR x, massflow m, you need to remove y joule with means of intercooling to bring the temp in intake manifold to ambient lets say. The amount of joules removed will increase the lower the compressing efficieny.

If you remove the joules with one charge cooler after the second or single stage, or with both an interstage and a 2nd cooler. It does not influence the overall efficiency. Which for me is. How much turbine work you need to compress m massflow to x PR..

If you use a interstage cooler, the air entering the HP comp is more dense, meaning the corrected massflow is lower, meaning that the operating point on the cw will move to the left. Meaning that you can use a slightly smaller wheel. This does not mean that because the air exitting from the HP comp outlet is lower, because the air entering it is also, the efficiency is any higher.

Ruben
Apperently I did not express my self good enaugh

Do you understand below, it is for turbine but it does not different for a compressor

well let us take this from the beginning

gas turbine (like the turbo in compressor and turbine part) and steam turbine can be regarding as adiabatic, the definition is there is no exchange of heat energy to the surroundings

if the conversion of energy with in the system is reversible it mean that we can make the process go back to start state by it self

if the system is both reversible and adiabatic it is called isentropic, the best we can do, under these conditions the entropy is constant, all real process as fare as we know the entropy is increasing, if we would be able to decrease it we would have a perpetuum mobile

the energy conversion in a adiabatic process is the massflow*change in enthalpy

the isentropic efficiency is the ratio of real change enthalpy conversion/change of enthalpy if isentropic process, for a gas the enthalpy can be written like Cp*T where cp is the specific heat value at constant pressure and T is the temperature

if we regard the gas as a perfect gas (cp is constant att all temperature) the isentropic efficiency, the ratio of real entalpy/isentropic change of enthalpy, can be simplified by real temperature change/ isentropic temperature change

the isentropic energy convertion with in the gas can easy be calulated by defined thermodynamic laws, if we know how the isentropic efficency at different conditions look like we can easy se how much we can get out of the turbine to be used to drive the compressor

exactly how you define the isentropic efficiency can differ depending on the exact thermodynamic property's that was used, it can be static or total enthalpy as in static and dynamic temperature how they are pair up for example

so simply the isentropic efficiency let us know in the end how much mechanic power we get out of the turbine by it convertion of energy with in the system. That is why it is so interesting to know

Then yes we can speak about the reaction degree of the stage, with is the ratio of enthalpy change in the rotor/ enthalpy change in rotor+stator. Stator in this case is the turbine housing and rotor is the turbine wheel.
If you want high efficiency you will use a pressure gradient over the turbine blade that will always be greater or equal to 0, since the gas flow will follow the shape of the blade. But sometimes you want to compromise to have other conditions to gain other advantages then high isentropic efficiency, if we where to use lower degree of reaction we can gain more power out of turbine even if the isentropic efficency is lower.

is this crystal clear so we can continue?

Thats all clear. The point I was making was that the interstage cooler does not add efficiency. In other words. To achieve lets say 2000 kg/h 4000 mbar absolute in intake manifold. The interstage cooler doest not make that a lower turbine work is required.

It only makes that they can use a smaller HP stage, and alu vs Ti, and have to fear less for oil vapour from ccv cracking due to the very high temperature that would exist at hp comp outlet when no interstage cooler would be used.

Turbo Z is right on this one. Interstage cooling does not add efficiency per se because it is inherent to the corrected maps of the devices, but it directly impacts the inlet temperature of the HP compressor, therefore directly impacts compressor work by
W_c = (1/eta_c)*m_dot_c*Cp_c*T1*((p2/p1)^((gamma_c-1)/gamma_c)-1)

W_t = (eta_t)*m_dot_t*Cp_t*T5*(1-(p5/p6)^((1-gamma_t)/gamma_t))

Compressor work must equal turbine work less friction losses, so for a given exhaust gas mass flow, turbine adiabatic efficiency and T5, the only place this come comes from is (p5/p6) which is directly related to EMP.

Hmmm, interesting. so lets say I can cool T1 down to 83 kelvin or so, I need like 3.5x less compressor power to compress same massflow of air? somehow doesnt fit into my head but who knows it is really like that

Yes for sure it does. Only you have to apply work to refrigerate the air to 83K so it's not free.

the higher the inlet stage temperature to a compressor stage the work is direct proportional to the temperature increase.

If you compress air at 83k at pr 5 at isentrop condition (say cp=1000j/Kkg)
the needed specific work is about 50kJ/kg air
if we rise the temperature to the double 166K the needed work for compression is about 100kJ/kg, the double amount of work for compression, the opposite can be used in turbine, the higher the temperature the more work is available for abstraction from the stage

actually a isotherm at normal temperature is the operation that will need the smallest amount of specific work, but not so easy to do in real, interstage cooling is between, and yes you can supercool the air by a Brayton cycle to -0--30 degree celsius, the same method used in air condition in airplane. But will need more exhaust pressure and ALOT of other thing to think about.

but inter cooling has another positive thing, since you keep temperature down the viscosity of the air is lower (viscosity for gases increase with temperature)
this mean we will have a higher Reynolds number in second stage then without intercooling and the air will follow the blade better in the compressor and by that work better, and more margin for surge. The generalize parameters does not take this into account as fare as I know but I can be mistaken there.

and do not forget the higher the pressure ratio in general the lower efficiency, the pollytropic efficiency is the same. This because the isentropic efficiency is less then 100%, so the more to the end you end up the more work is needed all the time because temperature is increasing.

I'm not sure if the metallurgy would be happy with 83º K .

Turbo Z said:

the higher the inlet stage temperature to a compressor stage the work is direct proportional to the temperature increase.

If you compress air at 83k at pr 5 at isentrop condition (say cp=1000j/Kkg)
the needed specific work is about 50kJ/kg air
if we rise the temperature to the double 166K the needed work for compression is about 100kJ/kg, the double amount of work for compression, the opposite can be used in turbine, the higher the temperature the more work is available for abstraction from the stage

actually a isotherm at normal temperature is the operation that will need the smallest amount of specific work, but not so easy to do in real, interstage cooling is between, and yes you can supercool the air by a Brayton cycle to -0--30 degree celsius, the same method used in air condition in airplane. But will need more exhaust pressure and ALOT of other thing to think about.

but inter cooling has another positive thing, since you keep temperature down the viscosity of the air is lower (viscosity for gases increase with temperature)
this mean we will have a higher Reynolds number in second stage then without intercooling and the air will follow the blade better in the compressor and by that work better, and more margin for surge. The generalize parameters does not take this into account as fare as I know but I can be mistaken there.

and do not forget the higher the pressure ratio in general the lower efficiency, the pollytropic efficiency is the same. This because the isentropic efficiency is less then 100%, so the more to the end you end up the more work is needed all the time because temperature is increasing.

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nice, thats maybe also one of the reasons why pre comp wi works so good.

When you inject water pre-compressor, the gamma is not longer that of air (1.4) but a lower value. That helps reduce compressor work, but simultaneously increases the mass flow, so it is neither clear nor always the case that pre-comp WI "works so good". It's definitely very bad for other things, like pitting the compressor wheel.

Hello. I search information about 3 turbo's GTD1549vz GTC1549vz and BV43A i need informaton
intake:
inducer:
exducer:
AR
exhaust
inducer :
exducer :

Hi!

Can someone please share turbine & comp. wheel measurements of latest VNT gen GTD2060VZ / VZK ? Someone said to someone its size is larger than the previous gen GTB2260 (which obviously contradicts with the nomenclature of GT20 < GT22). Is it true?

Thank you!

GTD2060 - turbine is smaller, compressor has 63mm extended tip. They work well but not night and day compared to older GTB2260. GTD1752vrk on the other hand is VERY good.

I'm going to test GTD2263vzk, hopefully it makes more power

ryanp said:

GTD2060 - turbine is smaller, compressor has 63mm extended tip. They work well but not night and day compared to older GTB2260. GTD1752vrk on the other hand is VERY good.

I'm going to test GTD2263vzk, hopefully it makes more power

Click to expand...

Nice! Have you installed GT22V turbine wheel in the GTD2260 and upgraded comp wheel with KTS china cnc'ed wheel? Thank you!

BTW , does GTD2060 tolerates higher EGT's than GTB (It should as I understand from Garrett official videos)?