1.9 (m)tdi injection pump question

samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
If the guy says it will bolt to the AHU bracket then all you need to find is likely just an AHU pulley to run it.

That will be an easy route for sure, so long as it actually does have the smaller pump snout and will bolt to the AHU bracket.
yeah, he told me he had it on a 1998 jetta ahu, which is the same engine im going to be using, somebody else on this forum sells them, here in the states, but they run about 1500, but the beauty part of them is you dont have to build a pump from two different ones
 

djrhetoric

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Location
MPLS
TDI
80 Rabbit pickup MTDI
COME ON GUYS!!!! CANT WE ALL GET ALONG? we all love tdis, and diesel vws, and thats what matters!!! thanks for all of the great info btw from everybody
x2 :)

Looks like you found what you're looking for, too.
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
Thank you for your insight.
If you would have read my post and my wording choices, I never said it wouldn't work. I said it would work, but probably not very well. I may have overstated when I said 'I doubt it,' so I apologize.
You contradicted your own argument when you said 'you can get the engine to run perfectly' and 'its just going to be a bog machine.' Perfectly does not equal bog machine. It seems to be a little counter-productive to choose a TDI if you're going to compromise with an IDI pump. Why not just put in a 1.6 or 1.9 IDI then?

I am far from 'spewing' information. I am trying to provide helpful information for those looking to go this route. I gave a few options of nearly bolt-on DI pump solutions. The best way to set one of these engines up is to use the proper DI pump. I was stating this as a disclaimer. People going this route shouldn't expect full performance from an IDI pump on a DI engine.
And yes, I have read your threads on vwdiesel.net and vwvortex, so I know your (online) reputation with these pumps.

The internet is serious business.
You don't have to be a ball bag about being wrong. However I do accept your apology, thank-you.

I did nothing of contradiction, running perfectly and making power are not the same thing. ;) It is going to be wheeler, a bog machine, a rock crawler what ever you want to call it. Does he need top end? No.

"I'm sure you could get the engine to idle using a 1.9TD (AAZ) pump, but actually drive it? I doubt it."

That was your own wording, which I disagree with and think is a false statement. Have you put a IDI pump on a TDI engine? If not, don't talk. I have done it, I have driven one that I even towed with, A little far from just idling.

The reason to even consider a sacrifice and run TDI with an IDI would still be a much more stable engine than the 1.6 and 1.9 IDI.

"People going this route shouldn't expect full performance from an IDI pump on a DI engine."

Much better wording Chief :D
 

TDIJetta99

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Port Jervis, New York, USA
TDI
03... Faster than yours =]
So in other words you'll take a 90hp AHU and get ~60hp out of it with an IDI pump.. Definitely won't be stressing out any internals at that power level..
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
Stock 1.6 TD's were 68hp ;). Is it the best setup? No. Will it run? Yes.

Damn ball breakers over here..
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
an IDI pump is for IDI engines...yes you can get one to "run" a TDI...but will it be optimal?....no ....a proper TDI-M pump has a different cam plate profile, different advance parameters and different governor mechanisms to name just a few...it's both false to say an IDI will run a tdi "perfectly" and also false to say it won't run it....the truth is in a different ball park... so any info above that touts black and white above is ridiculous ... to "properly" run a TDI mechanically (optimal power, efficiency and starting) it requires a TDI-M pump built for the job and nothing short of...
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
an IDI pump is for IDI engines...yes you can get one to "run" a TDI...but will it be optimal?....no ....a proper TDI-M pump has a different cam plate profile, different advance parameters and different governor mechanisms to name just a few...it's both false to say an IDI will run a tdi "perfectly" and also false to say it won't run it....the truth is in a different ball park... so any info above that touts black and white above is ridiculous ... to "properly" run a TDI mechanically (optimal power, efficiency and starting) it requires a TDI-M pump built for the job and nothing short of...
Thanks for stating the already stated :p.
 

djrhetoric

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Location
MPLS
TDI
80 Rabbit pickup MTDI
You don't have to be a ball bag about being wrong. However I do accept your apology, thank-you.

I did nothing of contradiction, running perfectly and making power are not the same thing. ;) It is going to be wheeler, a bog machine, a rock crawler what ever you want to call it. Does he need top end? No.

"I'm sure you could get the engine to idle using a 1.9TD (AAZ) pump, but actually drive it? I doubt it."

That was your own wording, which I disagree with and think is a false statement. Have you put a IDI pump on a TDI engine? If not, don't talk. I have done it, I have driven one that I even towed with, A little far from just idling.

The reason to even consider a sacrifice and run TDI with an IDI would still be a much more stable engine than the 1.6 and 1.9 IDI.

"People going this route shouldn't expect full performance from an IDI pump on a DI engine."

Much better wording Chief :D
Everyone,

Bow down to the all knowing M-TDI Master. The diesel gods have blessed him with this knowledge from birth. He listens to know one and knows all! Any recourse will be struck down with the vengeance of 8 pounding valves!

With warmest regards,

Da Chief
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
Thank-you. It was about time I got back to my throne, carry on peasants.

EDIT:

Seriously, why you gotta be like that? There is more than one way to get something done.
 
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djrhetoric

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Location
MPLS
TDI
80 Rabbit pickup MTDI
Thank-you. It was about time I got back to my throne, carry on peasants.

EDIT:

Seriously, why you gotta be like that? There is more than one way to get something done.
Dear Jeremy:

I was merely trying to offer some simple advice to the OP and a path he should take with his project. Then you arrived and told everyone they were wrong and have towed things and used injection pumps and stuff. You have a great wealth of experience with these engines, but you have no tact. Calling me names is pretty cool, too. Seriously.

Dats why I gotta be like dat, sire.

Best wishes,

Da Chief
:p
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
You acknowledge my experience, yet shoot it down at the same time?
For clarification, I told you alone that you were spewing false information, which you were.. I called you a ball bag, grow up lol.

We have cluttered this thread enough, here is a useful tidbit of information, my M-TDI thread. I linked you to post 151 on page 11, because before that I was unsure of my route and did A LOT of flip flopping.

For further clarification my current setup is as follows;

  • 1986 ACN 020 transmission with a 210mm gasser clutch setup (allows me to use mk1 shifter setup, clutch cable, speedo cable and subsequently the cluster, as well as the mk1 90mm axles)
  • 1984 Jetta, originally a Gas engine
  • 1998 Jetta AHU engine
  • Stock intake and exhaust manifolds
  • Stock turbo (ko3)
  • Stock ~.184 injectors (I have .216's on the shelf)
  • Land Rover 300TDI Discovery injection pump, with custom ground boost pin
  • Stock AHU pump pulley, stock ahu timing belt
  • Opened up AHU pump bracket to fit the ALH style snout of the Rover pump
  • Inter cooler delete (until the funds for a AWIC come in)

My future setup is as follows;

  • The .216's
  • Extremely efficient AWIC (less than 1% of pressure drop)
  • The TDI CTN 02A (have it in my shop)
  • The cable shifter (also have it), but I will be keeping cable clutch.
  • 100mm Scirocco 16v axles, already have my spindles opened up
  • T3 turbo off of a 91 1.6 that I have as well(I am not looking for 450ftlbs... or 57lb of boost either)
  • PD150 intake manifold
 

djrhetoric

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Location
MPLS
TDI
80 Rabbit pickup MTDI
Your future plans look promising.

Is your AWIC setup going to be custom or is there an off the shelf unit you're looking at? I only ask because I'm working on a similar build (albeit with a VNT17/22 setup) and am trying to figure out a good place to stick an intercooler in a MK1 without going to town hacking things up.
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
Many people I have talked to have told me to save the money and piece together my own setup.. but honestly I don't think I could do this good of a job, and really save that much.

FrozenBoost.com has a $280 nearly full kit.

 

hardstripe

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Location
Spokane, wa
TDI
4runner
hey man check out my build thread... dont buy from prothe, I bought that exact pump and regret it bad. If you like ill sell it to you for 300 bucks no core, it ran on my truck for about 2000 miles, but I am warning you dont send him your genuine Bosch core you will never see it again if you have buyer remorse. He didnt even let me have my money back, but instead offered instore credit... why would I buy more of his parts? Heh... anyways I dont recommend it, and I couldnt even sell this pump in good conscience, to anyone without first telling them what an utter failure it is.

Giles on the other hand has a great reputation, and yes it costs a bunch of money, but you definitely get what you pay for. If I were you, I would totally slap an ALH in there with the computer and 11mm pump, and tune it out. Plenty of HP and gobs of torque, and excellent fuel economy. Or just do what I did and turn your ahu into an alh.

My build thread:
http://www.yotatech.com/f158/85-4runner-vw-1-9-afn-m-tdi-swap-232093/

Ive made alot more progress, but need to update this thread badly...
 
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samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
hey man check out my build thread... dont buy from prothe, I bought that exact pump and regret it bad. If you like ill sell it to you for 300 bucks no core, it ran on my truck for about 2000 miles, but I am warning you dont send him your genuine Bosch core you will never see it again if you have buyer remorse. He didnt even let me have my money back, but instead offered instore credit... why would I buy more of his parts? Heh... anyways I dont recommend it, and I couldnt even sell this pump in good conscience, to anyone without first telling them what an utter failure it is.

Giles on the other hand has a great reputation, and yes it costs a bunch of money, but you definitely get what you pay for. If I were you, I would totally slap an ALH in there with the computer and 11mm pump, and tune it out. Plenty of HP and gobs of torque, and excellent fuel economy. Or just do what I did and turn your ahu into an alh.

My build thread:
http://www.yotatech.com/f158/85-4runner-vw-1-9-afn-m-tdi-swap-232093/

Ive made alot more progress, but need to update this thread badly...
i know i know, but still, like i stated before, i only want simplicity, i could care less about gobs of torque, hp, and efficiency, im regearing the transfercase lower anyways, so torque doesnt bother me a bit
 

hardstripe

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Location
Spokane, wa
TDI
4runner
then I would recommend giles. Or if your determined to get a prothe pump, I would make sure i was good buddies with someone who has a pump stand 8D that way they can set up the pump right. I cant recommend going with a system that will give you less HP... I wasnt happy with 90hp when it was a 22re, I wasnt happy with comparable power and more torque when I went m-tdi. I cant imagine how much I would hate my truck with 60-70hp. But to each his own, this is only advice I am offering to you based on my own personal experience, and you can take it or leave it as you will. Good luck with whatever you decide, take lots of pics, and write all about it for us, cant wait to see you do it! Let me know if you want to play with this prothe pump, and see if you can make it work.
 

samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
then I would recommend giles. Or if your determined to get a prothe pump, I would make sure i was good buddies with someone who has a pump stand 8D that way they can set up the pump right. I cant recommend going with a system that will give you less HP... I wasnt happy with 90hp when it was a 22re, I wasnt happy with comparable power and more torque when I went m-tdi. I cant imagine how much I would hate my truck with 60-70hp. But to each his own, this is only advice I am offering to you based on my own personal experience, and you can take it or leave it as you will. Good luck with whatever you decide, take lots of pics, and write all about it for us, cant wait to see you do it! Let me know if you want to play with this prothe pump, and see if you can make it work.
oh no, im not touching prothes junk :D im gonna run a 2.8 lt pump, that is if i buy it from xriss, i posted a pic of it several posts ago
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
I cant imagine how much I would hate my truck with 60-70hp.

Ok, but you must understand this isn't how every M-TDI runs.. just when you use different parts.

SauraiTD, this is my honest experience backed opinion..

Get that pump you are looking at or a 2.5 300tdi LAND ROVER pump. In stock form they should both provide way more than enough fueling for your desires. Which means no f**king around.

The one you are looking at will fit with less shenanigans, as you will not need to bore out the pump bracket. An AHU pump pulley is going to be needed.
 

samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
Ok, but you must understand this isn't how every M-TDI runs.. just when you use different parts.

SauraiTD, this is my honest experience backed opinion..

Get that pump you are looking at or a 2.5 300tdi LAND ROVER pump. In stock form they should both provide way more than enough fueling for your desires. Which means no f**king around.

The one you are looking at will fit with less shenanigans, as you will not need to bore out the pump bracket. An AHU pump pulley is going to be needed.
okay, so can i take off the tdi pump, pull the pulley off the pump, put the pulley on the 2.8 pump, and put the 2.8 pump on my engine, connect lines, time it, and call it good?
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
EDIT!

I cannot see from this post/picture.. but does the pump have slotted mounting holes??



Judging by that rear bracket you will also need to use the AHU rear pump bracket as well, again no big deal.. it bolts on.
 
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samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
EDIT!

I cannot see from this post/picture.. but does the pump have slotted mounting holes??



Judging by that rear bracket you will also need to use the AHU rear pump bracket as well, again no big deal.. it bolts on.
no idea if it does or not, but ill use the bracket,
 

samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
Sweet, that's probably on par with a Land Rover pump setup.

OP, You're good to go :)
i read on another forum, some guy pulled this one, and a 4 bt pump apart, really the only difference in them was the snout length, other than that, they were darn near identical, now, does anybody know anything about timing the injection pump?
 
8

8v-of-fury

Guest
Yessir I do, same have said I am an M-TDI Master and that the diesel gods have blessed me with this knowledge from birth.. Crazy though eh? lol

The pulley needs to be like one or two notches clockwise. Apparently the Rover shaft/key was 11* off from the AHU one. I am not sure if it is the same for the LT pump.



As can be seen the center of the pump in the one whole does NOT line up with the pulley's dent for TDC. I measured it to this spot by using the dial gauge in the end and turning the pump to where I was on the flat of the cam-plate. The pump lock does not fit for timing purposes anymore. For physical timing purposes, is it an 11mm or 12mm pump head? That is what ultimately determines the static timing setting. I would start at 1.25mm if it is an 11mm head. I am unsure of a starting point for 12mm as I have no experience, yet ;).
 
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samuraitd

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Location
Provo, UT
TDI
ahu mtdi samurai swap, 1991 jetta ecodiesel
Yessir I do, same have said I am an M-TDI Master and that the diesel gods have blessed me with this knowledge from birth.. Crazy though eh? lol

The pulley needs to be like one or two notches clockwise. Apparently the Rover shaft/key was 11* off from the AHU one. I am not sure if it is the same for the LT pump.



As can be seen the center of the pump in the one whole does NOT line up with the pulley's dent for TDC. I measured it to this spot by using the dial gauge in the end and turning the pump to where I was on the flat of the cam-plate. The pump lock does not fit for timing purposes anymore. For physical timing purposes, is it an 11mm or 12mm pump head? That is what ultimately determines the static timing setting. I would start at 1.25mm if it is an 11mm head. I am unsure of a starting point for 12mm as I have no experience, yet ;).
no idea, one of my friends here in town has the same pump im looking at buying from xriss, so maybe ill buy both?!!!!! just an idea, anyways, he seems to know a lot about them, he has two tdis right now, a 1.6td, and a couple n/as, also, one of my high school buddies is a diesel tech, ill ask him for help prolly
 
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