bew and brm cam failure

A couple good questions that I'm sure have crossed peoples mind, good reference.I know that there is a lot of problems with these cams, should we use them until they no longer work, or replace them when wear is shown.I'm cheap, or just doing poorly financially, am I going to damage other parts of my engine by running this cam until it is unusable, or am I just going to have a car that loses performance until it no longer functions correctly without the replacement of the cam and lifters.

Do a search in the oils and lubrication section and view the pics of the eroded lifters. One small piece of lifter that escapes once a valve pierces it................NEW HEAD or ENGINE! If your lifters are dished and the side of your cam lobes are sharp (chamfer gone) time to replace. The cam/lifter setup is cheaper than the head or motor. Prices have really come down in the last year for these parts. Last year it was $1200 and up just for the parts. You can now get them for under $800, still alot but much less than before.

I concur with Red.

Devils' advocate. I'm waiting till it fails entirely. There have been plenty of people who waited until they had bad noises and had holes in their lifters, did just the cam and lifter job, and are still running.

So take their experience for what it's worth, and judge for yourself based on your personal level of paranoia after you've popped the cover and take a gander.

I personally don't like sedans so I don't care if mine blows up (it's almost paid for, I really don't care. I mean I really just don't anymore). It's my spouses vehicle now. I intend to get my money out of it -- which means when it won't drive, I'll replace the part and contemplate what to do with it afterwards. I was the same way with the clutches I've put in it (it's current one is slipping but not bad enough to warrant a replacement).

Let it be known I'm super cheap by upbringing. Not afraid to admit it, thick enough skinned to take the flack from those who are willing to throw around $2 and $3k like it's nothing.

I have read that once wear begins on the camshaft and lifters, it progresses VERY rapidly, such as the cam and lifters can be trashed and holed, once abnormal wear begins (is noticeable) in as little as 2000 - 4000 miles. Also, with advanced wear, there is lots of wear particles distributed throughout the oil and engine, and this can not be good at all.

I suggest than once abnormal wear is confirmed, change out the cam and lifters right away!

"(it's almost paid for, I really don't care. I mean I really just don't anymore). "

The ultimate in cheapness is to see how long you can go without a car payment. I HATE car payments. I shoot for 1/3 of ownership with a payment and 2/3 without, or mileage wise, the first 100,000 miles I have a payment and the next 200,000 miles I don't. It is far cheaper to repair your car YOURSELF, keep on top of it, and maximize the time you own it, especially a fuel sipper like a TDI. This is what I am shooting for.

--Nate

so essentially for a pd engine maintaining you cam and lifters is only second to your timing belt...anyone disagree?

I think it's exception, not the rule.

Newzboys said:

so essentially for a pd engine maintaining you cam and lifters is only second to your timing belt...anyone disagree?

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I disagree. PDs in Europe have successful history and failures are really rare.

Really now ! We got one at the shop today that Played devil's advocate . The lifter is jammed in the Head .. Stuck .. gonzo . So wait til the engine is fried . Car in ? 06 BRM 115 k . Take a look see now and then and stop rolling the dice . Peace R

hid3 said:

I disagree. PDs in Europe have successful history and failures are really rare.

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correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they make the u.s. cam lobes narrower, and out of a different matterial than the euros?

Newzboys said:

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they make the u.s. cam lobes narrower, and out of a different matterial than the euros?

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No. All flat tappet PDs have same width cam lobes. Cam part numbers are even identical to European ones. However, I'm not sure about the cam material or the country of origin in those NA engines. They (the cams) might be made in crappy Poland or so...

fixumrich said:

Really now ! We got one at the shop today that Played devil's advocate . The lifter is jammed in the Head .. Stuck .. gonzo . So wait til the engine is fried . Car in ? 06 BRM 115 k . Take a look see now and then and stop rolling the dice . Peace R

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Again, I really don't care for sedans and I'm taking my chances. I'd rather put a BEW into it anyway, hands down it appears to be a far more reliable engine.

However I'm happy to take bets. I'm not going to replace it before 150k miles minimum but think I can stretch that to 180k miles and do an early belt change to save on labor.

I also knew this kid who got paralyzed from a flu vaccine. I suppose I shouldn't take those either? (it's the same scare tactic/logic)

confused....you plan on using the lifters and cam until it actually brakes something? I used my bew to 170,000, hydrolocked engine, still have good cam/lifters, so i'm not saying change the cam/lifters at xxx,xxx miles, but I don't think that they should be used until they are broken either

hid3 said:

I disagree. PDs in Europe have successful history and failures are really rare.

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BS

follow some of the UK forums

Dimitri16V said:

BS

follow some of the UK forums

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Please nothe that they fall in these categories:
1. Unknown oil history
2. Known oil history with bad oil usage
3. Long-life service cars (with 20k+ miles per OCI)
4. Performance/chipped cars.

Also, have in mind that there were millions of PD units sold in Europe. In comparison, there were only about 50'000 BEWs and nearly 30'000 BRMs. If the failure rate would be that high here all the forums (not just UK) would be discussing nothing but cam failures.

PDJetta said:

The ultimate in cheapness is to see how long you can go without a car payment. I HATE car payments. I shoot for 1/3 of ownership with a payment and 2/3 without, or mileage wise, the first 100,000 miles I have a payment and the next 200,000 miles I don't. It is far cheaper to repair your car YOURSELF, keep on top of it, and maximize the time you own it, especially a fuel sipper like a TDI. This is what I am shooting for.

--Nate

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I have never had a car payment. Always have paid cash when the time comes (repair costs more than the car is worth) and have never had a car newer than 5 years old.

Guess I'm cheap (and loving every minute of it!)

I am cheap.
I kept a LUV pickup until the replacement plywood floorboards fell out, cut bigger ones and kept going. A tow chain sat on the passengers side plywood floorboard to hold it down. I had to remember to take one foot off of the clutch, brake or gas to hold down the one on the drivers side, when I saw a puddle coming. There was no metal left strong enough to fasten to.

I was so glad when it finally died.

But I have bought a new vehicle or two. In fact there is an 89 F250 4x4 in the drive right now that I bought new. 250+k miles.

I usually plan to keep a car 20 years. No BS. They sometimes make it that long, but often an accident takes them from me before their time (none my fault - yet.)

You do not keep a vehicle 20 years without doing proper maintenance on it.

When a cam is worn down past the chamfer, or a lifter is scarred and dished, it is only good financial sense to replace the set.

I can see how people can look at the same set of facts and come up with different action plans, so I will not argue with anyone.

But I think a key statement is "I don't like sedans." If it is time to run to failure and get rid of it...

Dan's sort of on to it.

I don't care for sedans, the Jetta was a purchase based on a strong math equation. it's services to me are done.

Now I can play a fun game. How long can it last? Because everyone wants to know, but no one wants to do it.

Well, I do. I have plans for it either way. I really do want to try and keep it, I did buy it brand new and it's the only car I can ever say I've bought new.

At the same time, I don't care about it that much to not see how long it'll hold out. I've seen AHU's go 160k on OEM timing belts with blown turbos until it got 32mpg... and then totaled out bought back repaired and is pushing 300k and is back to 50mpg.

I believe these cars can hold up even when severely defected. i'm putting my faith to the test in a way.

So just sit back and watch. If everyone is right I'll be looking for a new head soon (or I have one already...).

edit: i question the airbags and other advanced electronics capability to survive 20+ years in anything made in this century. But it would be nice to try

kcfoxie said:

Devils' advocate. I'm waiting till it fails entirely. There have been plenty of people who waited until they had bad noises and had holes in their lifters, did just the cam and lifter job, and are still running.

So take their experience for what it's worth, and judge for yourself based on your personal level of paranoia after you've popped the cover and take a gander.

I personally don't like sedans so I don't care if mine blows up (it's almost paid for, I really don't care. I mean I really just don't anymore). It's my spouses vehicle now. I intend to get my money out of it -- which means when it won't drive, I'll replace the part and contemplate what to do with it afterwards. I was the same way with the clutches I've put in it (it's current one is slipping but not bad enough to warrant a replacement).

Let it be known I'm super cheap by upbringing. Not afraid to admit it, thick enough skinned to take the flack from those who are willing to throw around $2 and $3k like it's nothing.

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No offense, but there is frugal and stupid. BIG DIFFERANCE! To not spend 1200-1500 bucks and gamble on a new motor at 5-7K? That just not make good sense on any level. If your lifter disintergrates it will cost much, much more than a cam kit.

LiLredTDI said:

No offense, but there is frugal and stupid. BIG DIFFERANCE! To not spend 1200-1500 bucks and gamble on a new motor at 5-7K? That just not make good sense on any level. If your lifter disintergrates it will cost much, much more than a cam kit.

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technically this motor has already been "broken" beyond repair.... depending upon whom you ask.

I think this thread is being jacked....

Newzboys said:

I think this thread is being jacked....

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by somebody who likes to bragg

if KC does not care to hold his PD past 200K miles , more power to him.
But coming here and advising everybody to do the same seems arrogant

My Golf services will be done at 300K ,I will allow KC to keep VW afloat by buying a new VW

Newzboys said:

A couple good questions that I'm sure have crossed peoples mind, good reference.I know that there is a lot of problems with these cams, should we use them until they no longer work, or replace them when wear is shown.I'm cheap, or just doing poorly financially, am I going to damage other parts of my engine by running this cam until it is unusable, or am I just going to have a car that loses performance until it no longer functions correctly without the replacement of the cam and lifters.

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Or. Consider putting in a set of new stock cam bearings and bolts to put off the cam failure. If you have XXX,XXX miles US, with no cam wear, you might add 75% to that mileage and never see a cam failure. The bearings are easily changed at timing belt time.

I just never thought ground up followers and cam lobes were a good additive for long engine life. We change oil to keep it clean; why add any more wear particles than we have to.

eddif

greenskeeper said:

I have never had a car payment. Always have paid cash when the time comes (repair costs more than the car is worth) and have never had a car newer than 5 years old.

Guess I'm cheap (and loving every minute of it!)

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The '04 Jetta was the first new car I ever bought and like you, I never had a car newer than five years old, before the Jetta. My first car was a '64 Bug (it was 12 years old at the time, bought for $100, had to tow it home), so that's an indication I have been doing this for a while!

--Nate

Another cheapskate here. $12k for my 04 jetta wagon last summer was the most expensive car I've ever bought, and the first time I bought a car for a reason other than my previous car was either totaled (twice since moving to San Antonio, never before in 30 years of driving) or had very high mileage.

In this case, I was sick of my 00 passat wagon, that car was a serious problem child, and I'd always wanted a TDI, so I broke my policy of only getting a replacement car when absolutely necessary.

About a month after doing this, the dealer dropped a GP in the engine and ruined the head, setting a several-month fiasco in motion that resulted in me continuing to drive the passat until November. It turned out fine in the end (new head, piston, rings, turbo on VW's dime) but it was a big waste of time and energy.

The point is, I hope to not replace this car for at least a decade. It always ends up being more time and money. If that means spending an extra $1500 every 100K miles to replace the cam/lifters along with TB, no problem. $1500 over 100K miles is dirt cheap compared to what most people spend to drive.

halocline said:

\ If that means spending an extra $1500 every 100K miles to replace the cam/lifters along with TB, no problem. $1500 over 100K miles is dirt cheap compared to what most people spend to drive.

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Agreed, but even $1500 is generous if you do your own work.

I got a better idea!!!! Let's use the car without fixing anything until we have blow the engine, skip the timing belt too! I hate sedans and I'm not paying the extra money for a golf!!! LMAO

back to the thread... being efficient and being cost-conscious is part of the TDI mystique. There are a bunch of egg-heads punching calculators to figger life-expectancy, maintenance costs, and I agree, up to a point, go for the maximum life expectancy. Trading cars isn't likely for a guy like me either.

I have to agree with fixumrich. And also, there is a point for DIY'er. How much can you do for yourself? If you got to pay to do the big job, it can really hurt you.

For example, a car that just got finished in my shop; a BRM. He drove 600 more miles after he suspected a holed lifter. The cam follower rounded over the valve stem. The head had to be removed. The oil pump was shot. The filter housing and the oil cooler gets cleaned or replaced. The oil pan gets washed. There are a whole lotta hours between replacing the cam 'until it's shot' and maintaining before it gets deep.

Kinda like driving a tire until it blows... You might have gotten maximum mileage out of the tire, but that doesn't mean much when the car's upside down in the ditch.

Taking the Valve Cover off is a cheap torx 20 screwdriver and 5 minutes. Looking is cheap. Waiting for an endo is very expensive.

If the cam is replaced at 200K , it's worth dropping the oil pan , replacing the oil pump and front crank seal while doing the t-belt too.
that's what I am planning on doing at 270K when I do the 3rd T-belt change

and to to all the "cheapskates" outthere , holding more $$ in your pockets the best thing anybody can do. Uncontrolled and unecessary spending has ruined America

I'll say this. The cars that don't see the maintenance, are usually the dirtiest, smelliest, beat up, nasty POS's cars I've ever seen. Frankly, you wouldn't catch me dead driving one of them. That's pretty much the norm across the board with cared for/uncared for cars I see. A lot of times it's just like the owner.