NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

03_01_TDI

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Na
I don't think a HPFP replacement interval will help for the following reasons:
1. The replacement pump has the same design flaws.
2. We have seen failures at every level, from under 1k miles to 20, 30, 40, 60k miles and so on. Your replacement pump might fail shortly after being installed. There's no guarantee of anything.
3. If the failure is a result of bad diesel, that could happen with your new pump just as easily as the old.
4. If the failure is a result of the roller moving out of place (mechanical failure) that could also happen at any time, new or old pump.

1- we have seen more cars exceed 120k without any failures than those with failures.

2- incorrect fuel at some point in the engines history is the primary culprit.
 

pknopp

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WV
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2012 Jetta Sportwagen
I think the 8K number is a good worst case number. Finding a good independent Diesel mechanic in the North East means you would be very lucky if they are closer than an hour. There are the GURU's here of which I have used a couple, but there is usually a line waiting for them. So yes the number is definitely below the 8K if you do not use a dealer, but don't count out the cost of car rentals and time getting to/from your trusted choice.
Is this how other repairs are figured? When one asks how much a timing belt service cost them do we generally add in what it costs to get there, whatever we spent on the down time and so forth?

There will be people who show up here with no knowledge of this before it happened to them and it's not IMO a good idea for people to be tossing around these numbers that nobody is going to actually be faced with.
 

Diesl

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There will be people who show up here with no knowledge of this before it happened to them and it's not IMO a good idea for people to be tossing around these numbers that nobody is going to actually be faced with.
Well, in that case (quoting the number one is faced with) the number is $0, isn't it?
Unless I misread things, so far VW has almost always picked up the tab, including the majority of cases where they thought it was gas contamination. The posts I've seen talked about exactly one case where the owner had to foot the bill themselves.
If somebody is keeping statistics, they should chime in here.
 

TDiSkater

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I do wonder how things will progress if the gov't completely buys the gas in the diesel cause and formally closes the investigation. I think this will become more case by case vs blanket fix.
 

Lightflyer1

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I think gas in the diesel is one cause. Whether you misfuel or the dealer or the station is contaminated with it. There were some due to the pump too. The misfueling device will work for its intended purpose. Improvements to the pump have been made as well. The frequency has slowed and they have covered all reported cases of failure at this point. Once the devices are installed I would bet the case is closed and the case by case becomes the law of the land. Future issues will have the finger pointed at the fuel supplier. For sure VW will have every case, lab tested for gas from now on.
 

twopassats-one-TDI

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This what Shell had to say about fuel tank contamination and other things. Still no warm feeling about the future;

Hello Jeff,
Here are some bullets points from which you may draw answer to your inquiries.
1- Cetane Number:
In Canada there is a National Standard for Diesel Fuel namely CAN/CGSB-3.517 Automotive Diesel. In the US the spec is ASTM D975 Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils. Both the Canadian & US specs have a minimum Cetane Number requirement is 40.0 as measured in the Cetane Engine Test (ASTM D613).
The reality is that the vast majority of diesel fuel sold in Canada & the US is used in Heavy Duty Diesel engines such as those used in on-road trucks, off-road equipment (tractors, mining equipment, etc), even new technology locomotives require diesel fuel that meets the above specifications. Unfortunately, unlike Europe, the use of diesel by light duty passenger cars is quite a small part of the market.
In Europe the spec used in most countries is EN 590. The minimum Cetane Number spec varies with the expected weather, in most of Europe it is 51.0 min, however if the fuel is used under colder conditions the minimum Cetane Number requirement drops to 49.0 with a -10 deg C cloud point, then 48.0 with a -22 deg C cloud point, then 47.0 with a -28 deg C cloud point, the coldest grade they specify has a -34 deg C cloud point (& a 47.0 minimum Cetane number).
In Canada, even in Southern Ontario the cloud point supplied in winter has to be colder than -24 deg C to match with our expected minimum temperatures. In Western Canada the typical winter diesel fuel meets a -37 deg C cloud point specification. In certain colder areas of Canada a -43 or even -48 deg C cloud point diesel fuel is supplied.

Cetane quality in diesel fuel comes primarily from paraffins (i.e. wax like a candle). The EN 590 spec as described above reflects the reality that in order to meet their colder cloud points the amount of paraffins in the diesel fuel has to be lower and so the Cetane quality is then allowed to be lower. So realistically compared to Canada the European spec drops to 47.0 minimum that limit would only apply in Southern Ontario, parts of the Maritimes, Vancouver & Vancouver Island. The European spec does not address fuels that are used in winter in most of Canada.

This is a similar situation to the use of biodiesel, what may seem to be a great idea in Europe and the US becomes much more difficult in the cold climate that we have in Canada.

Cetane has no impact on the performance of the fuel injection system. It has an impact once the fuel is being combusted. A higher Cetane number will generally result in a faster cold start, lower noise levels after a cold start, less white smoke after a cold start & usually a less noisy idle under all conditions. Once the engine is warmed up then idle noise is the most customer perceivable issue with lower Cetane. EGR plugging is a known issue with VW TDIs, & some suggest that Cetane quality has an impact; I can’t say I have seen any definitive studies that support this contention.

2- Lubricity:
In terms of lubricity this seems to be an issue with the latest technology VW TDI which is why they are so worried about gasoline contamination (as gasoline has inherently poor lubricity).

In Canada all ULSD has to contain a lubricity additive as per the National Standard. I am not aware of any supplier that does not add a lubricity additive to their ULSD in Canada. We specifically did not add a lubricity additive to our V-Power Diesel package as we did not see any need, as ULSD has more than sufficient lubricity as currently supplied in CANADA. Also note that the Standard for lubricity in Canada is more stringent than that in the US Spec (ASTM D975).

If you are still concerned there are aftermarket additives, however as we don’t produce them we have no control over their efficacy or possible side effects.

3- Deliveries to Stations:
When fuel is delivered to a service station a gravity drop approach is used & the flexible lines used are drained dry before they are disconnected from the underground tank. We do put some effort into avoiding contamination of diesel fuel with gasoline as very small levels will cause the flash point (a legal requirement) to decrease & become off spec. Drain dry is also what is used in the trucks that deliver fuel. For small customers with their own storage we do have policies & procedures in place to ensure that fuels are not contaminated by other types of fuels when the delivery truck has a hose reel. Typically theses small trucks will have two hose reels, one for diesel & one for gasoline so as to prevent any cross contamination.

Sorry for the long reading. I thought it is important to supply you with most important factors to be considered.
Please let me know if you need further help.

Kind regards,
José Meilo
Shell Technical - North America
Email: Shelltechnical-CA@shell.com
Toll Free Tel.: 1-800-661-1771
 

lynnejohn

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CT
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2010 Jetta TDI
Is this how other repairs are figured? When one asks how much a timing belt service cost them do we generally add in what it costs to get there, whatever we spent on the down time and so forth?

There will be people who show up here with no knowledge of this before it happened to them and it's not IMO a good idea for people to be tossing around these numbers that nobody is going to actually be faced with.
For those people going to the dealer without the good will of VW(whenever that runs out), those numbers are real.
 

truman

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columbia,MO,usa
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'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
The good will policy can be terminated at anytime. An extended warranty of known duration would be much more reassuring. 150k on the fuel system would be reasonable- IMO.
 

flyboy320

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We specifically did not add a lubricity additive to our V-Power Diesel package as we did not see any need, as ULSD has more than sufficient lubricity as currently supplied in CANADA.
I thought that was the advantage of using V-Power, it had an additive that their regular diesel didn't have.....
 

GTIDan

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Interesting that this discussion centers on the pump, instead of on the sub-par (compared to other first and second world countries) US diesel fuel specs (scar diameter up to .56mm allowed, whereas good fuel would have less than 0.4mm)....
Every fuel maker I've contacted out here in California claims to be way below the 500+ maximum allowed. While many here don't believe it I believe the premium companies stand to lose credibility if their fuel is determined to cause a pump failure. That's why I use ONLY name brand diesel...........so far so good. 46K on the clock and counting.
 

Claydon

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Every fuel maker I've contacted out here in California claims to be way below the 500+ maximum allowed. While many here don't believe it I believe the premium companies stand to lose credibility if their fuel is determined to cause a pump failure. That's why I use ONLY name brand diesel...........so far so good. 46K on the clock and counting.
I initially started out using some no name station for the first 4000 miles on my '13 JSW but in the last 2 months (2000 miles) I use only Chevron and I started using optilube.

keeping fingers crossed.
 

twopassats-one-TDI

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I thought that was the advantage of using V-Power, it had an additive that their regular diesel didn't have.....
Oil companies could do more but they don't. Barely minimums and offers upgrades are really not much while commanding a higher price. I would bet that governments, car manufacturers and oil companies here in North America really don't want diesel in a big way. Not enough profit in it for passenger cars even though the technology makes so much sense. Why sell diesel when they can sell more gas and make more money.

Bottom line is that diesel fuel here is barely minimum thus here we are all talking about fuel system failures. Doesn't seem to happen in Europe where they are way ahead of North America when it comes to this stuff
 

PlaneCrazy

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I think the 8K number is a good worst case number. Finding a good independent Diesel mechanic in the North East means you would be very lucky if they are closer than an hour. There are the GURU's here of which I have used a couple, but there is usually a line waiting for them. So yes the number is definitely below the 8K if you do not use a dealer, but don't count out the cost of car rentals and time getting to/from your trusted choice.
Good points. On our Passat TDI the steering rack gave out once, and my wife in one of her grumpy "save money" moods (it was her car) insisted we take it to a local mechanic to have fixed at a cheaper rate, someone recommended by a parishioner in her church who also has an older TDI. Well factoring in the car rental because the car was in the shop for a week because it was a one-man operation, and factoring in that we had to take it elsewhere to have aligned because he didn't have the equipment and know-how (and worse the dealer said it wasn't centered right and to this day the car pulls slightly to the right and it's a real PITA but it's no longer a daily driver), it would have been FAR cheaper to take it to the dealer (who BTW always gave me excellent service and managed to finangle a 75% reimbursement on the balance shaft replacement on the same car even though it was 81k km out of warranty).

Moreover, the car would have been out of service for about a day instead of a week. YMMV but unless you have access to a guru as you point out, I'm not so sure that an independent shop that may, or may not, know CR TDIs very well isn't just an expensive crap shoot.

But then I hear so many dealer horror stories, I just don't know anymore...
 

Second Turbo

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AU rear-end was manual, petro, distracted, deceased ...

> I wonder if this is related to the dsg issues in China?
> Except that the woman that died was driving a manual.
> Doesn't say if it was petrol or diesel though.


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...rivers-death-on-dsg-clogged-diesel-injectors/

And it appears the driver was on a cellphone at the time.

Whatever the cause, definitely not a data point on the HPFP topic.
 

kjclow

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Good points. On our Passat TDI the steering rack gave out once, and my wife in one of her grumpy "save money" moods (it was her car) insisted we take it to a local mechanic to have fixed at a cheaper rate, someone recommended by a parishioner in her church who also has an older TDI. Well factoring in the car rental because the car was in the shop for a week because it was a one-man operation, and factoring in that we had to take it elsewhere to have aligned because he didn't have the equipment and know-how (and worse the dealer said it wasn't centered right and to this day the car pulls slightly to the right and it's a real PITA but it's no longer a daily driver), it would have been FAR cheaper to take it to the dealer (who BTW always gave me excellent service and managed to finangle a 75% reimbursement on the balance shaft replacement on the same car even though it was 81k km out of warranty).

Moreover, the car would have been out of service for about a day instead of a week. YMMV but unless you have access to a guru as you point out, I'm not so sure that an independent shop that may, or may not, know CR TDIs very well isn't just an expensive crap shoot.

But then I hear so many dealer horror stories, I just don't know anymore...
That's really the main issues why I've gone back or stayed with the delaer on the new cars. Had a local garage that said he was familiar with the VW diesels really do a butcher job on the glow plug harness, amoung other small things. The closest guru I can find that appears active is about 90 miles away. That's a minimum of three hours out of my day before he does any wrenching. Plus most of the gurus have not had a lot of experience with the CR engines.
 

LRTDI

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RIP 16 GSW... Just the LR diesel now
.

Moreover, the car would have been out of service for about a day instead of a week. YMMV but unless you have access to a guru as you point out, I'm not so sure that an independent shop that may, or may not, know CR TDIs very well isn't just an expensive crap shoot.

But then I hear so many dealer horror stories, I just don't know anymore...
You really have to have someone who not only knows his shiat, but also is willing to work to improve his knowledge all the time.

Diesel engine technology has developed so far and so fast in this country and elsewhere, that it has to be very difficult for independents to keep up.

Having a one on one trusted relationship with the guy who actually wrenches your car is vitally important.
 

TDI_Coast2Coast

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Can the pump just fail without the catastrophic aftermath?

Has anyone had the pump fail, but no schrapneling? I'm up to 110k now(10k with malone stage 2)on a 2010 SW. Timing belt is thankfully done. Hoping if/when the pump does go, it goes calmly. PS Silver/White has been added since new. Guess time will tell.


Has anyone used ashless 2 stroke for lubricity? Are there any issues with using it(besides DPF issues). I read the one report which showed it to beat PS in lubricity.
 

TDIJetta99

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03... Faster than yours =]
Typically when they fail it takes out a few other thing$ with it.. It's a good idea to check inside the fuel filter housing for shavings on a regular basis.. Some people shorten their filter interval for the sake of keeping an eye on imminent failure..
 

Claudio

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Nice, I just read an article on USA Today where NHTSA asked Crysler to recall some thousands of Jeep for a fuel tank issue that could catch on fire after a rear end impact (some deaths occured), and Crysler refused to do so stating that the % of cases was irrilevant (1% or below, depending of the model).
 

darrelld

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Nice, I just read an article on USA Today where NHTSA asked Crysler to recall some thousands of Jeep for a fuel tank issue that could catch on fire after a rear end impact (some deaths occured), and Crysler refused to do so stating that the % of cases was irrilevant (1% or below, depending of the model).
One injury lawsuit concerning a known defect would change their minds quickly.
 

TDI Kovács

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Apparently 51 people have died in the fires from the problem. I guess chrysler wants to hold on to the 300 million it would cost for the recall. I really hope the NHTSA makes an example of them so "other" auto manufacturers will think twice before they start playing games!
 

PlaneCrazy

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Apparently 51 people have died in the fires from the problem. I guess chrysler wants to hold on to the 300 million it would cost for the recall. I really hope the NHTSA makes an example of them so "other" auto manufacturers will think twice before they start playing games!
Sounds like a replay of the Ford Pinto problem. Like Ford I suspect they already figured in the cost of lawsuits into their calculations.

The only thing that may work in that case, is adverse publicity.
 

Lightflyer1

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Apparently 51 people have died in the fires from the problem. I guess chrysler wants to hold on to the 300 million it would cost for the recall. I really hope the NHTSA makes an example of them so "other" auto manufacturers will think twice before they start playing games!
51 people have died, but we don't know the details of the accidents themselves and they may have died anyway regardless of the vehicle they were in. Forcing a recall on a 10 or 20 year old vehicle with no possible way to fix the issue (rear mounted tank vs tank in front of rear axle) and the fact that their numbers aren't really out of line with anyone else, is just wrong. So far from what I have read I would side with Chrysler on this one.
 

kjclow

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Chrysler has yet to do anything about the Jeep Rubicons that seem to catch fire for no reason. They've claimed trapped debris around the exhaust from off roading when most of the reported fires have occured in vehicles that have never seen anything harsher than a gravel parking lot. I'm not surprised they're fighting this recall too.
 
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