BEW cam for BHW Motor

Hi all.

So I recently pulled the trigger and bought a BEW AMC cam from Bora Parts for my BHW. Aaron from Bora indicated that the vast majority of his clients buy the BEW cam over the BHW. I went with his recommendation and only after doing so, did some searching on tdiclub.com and found several people who suggest not going with the BEW cam as it ran very poorly, had lower power and felt very sluggish. Aaron indicated only a 1-2hp loss when I spoke with him on the phone, which I thought to be reasonable weighing on pros of the BEW (better reliability/longevity) as the lobes on BHW cam to be more radical. However then I start reading about adjusting the torsion values and wonder if the people that made the comments about the BEW cam did not adjust the torsion values correctly and perhaps it's not as bad as they first indicated if torsion values were adjusted correctly. Aaron said that if I felt there was a huge loss he would help out with a tune, but a tune also costs more money and I'm trying to do this on a budget otherwise would be doing the franko6 or colt cams. Aaron has been great with answering my questions.

I have a reprofiled Franko6 BEW in mine and I wouldn't trade it for a BHW+money.

Yep, they won't give as much power. I'm sticking with my original BHW cam, no need to replace what isn't broke. Easier that way.

Maybe after 300k miles I'll pull the valve cover and have a look.... meh, no I won't.

From my experience here at the shop (not my own, as I said, my cams don't fail), I've found that a BEW cam needs a tune inorder to get back up to stock power. Since a tune and an aftermarket cam costs about as much as an OEM cam, that seems like a no-brainer to me.

I use KS cams on BEWs anyways, as well as BRMs. But for the [few] BHWs I have had to replace, they come from Volkswagen. I'm not a fan of AMC stuff.

Truman, did you get a tune after installing your BEW cam? It being reprofiled also means it's not a true BEW cam grind that would have come right from VW then I take it? Do you feel you ended up with more hp/torque or the same?

Oilhammer... your a guy who knows his way around these cars as good as anyone. Can I get close to the same hp/torque with the torsion settings adjusted correctly with the BEW cam and stock tune.

From all the ones I have driven, I would say "no". They put around OK, but the best part of the 2.0L BHW is its 1.9L-crushing torque, so putting 1.9L parts in a 2.0L engine seems kinda silly. It isn't like it is a quick easy job, either, if you are not satisfied.

db123 said:

Truman, did you get a tune after installing your BEW cam? It being reprofiled also means it's not a true BEW cam grind that would have come right from VW then I take it? Do you feel you ended up with more hp/torque or the same?

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I have a Malone tune, but I can't remember whether it was done before or after the cam.
Anyway, I can't perceive a difference in power, but I like the very wide range of torsion the reprofiled BEW will tolerate. I run mine at -4.9 for the best FE. Want more power, go the other way. It's an awesome cam. FWIW

So I just want to understand something... the BEW cam you have, has been reprofiled I take it for better performance?

Do you recall a performance difference from when you had a BHW to the reprofiled BEW cam prior to the tune?

I guess my concern is your reprofiled BEW is not a standard BEW cam, so really I'm not comparing apples to apples. Would you agree?

truman said:

I have a Malone tune, but I can't remember whether it was done before or after the cam.
Anyway, I can't perceive a difference in power, but I like the very wide range of torsion the reprofiled BEW will tolerate. I run mine at -4.9 for the best FE. Want more power, go the other way. It's an awesome cam. FWIW

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There is zero reason not to put at least a stage 1 tune and shut off the egr on a B5.5. I've never driven a b5.5 back to back on a stock tune with a bhw cam vs a bew cam (every b5.5 I work on is tuned), but I'm willing to bet if you didn't tell the customer, they would never notice any difference. Heck, if the car came in with a trashed bhw cam, and you put a new bew cam in, they would probably say it runs better than ever!

The power/torque difference between a bew and a bhw is in turbo/tune/injectors. Not the cam. The next time I talk to Geoff at Colt I'll ask him the exact measurement differences between the cams; I know he told me a while back and it's something like .005" lift and 3 or 4 degrees - AKA negligible at best.

Whitbread, let me ask you this question... if you had a choice between a stock bhw cam or the bew cam in a b5.5, which one would you go with and would you go with an aftermarket cam Febi or AMC for example or a VW cam. I know you what your preference is, I'm just asking you to make the choice between the two.

Whitbread said:

There is zero reason not to put at least a stage 1 tune and shut off the egr on a B5.5. I've never driven a b5.5 back to back on a stock tune with a bhw cam vs a bew cam (every b5.5 I work on is tuned), but I'm willing to bet if you didn't tell the customer, they would never notice any difference. Heck, if the car came in with a trashed bhw cam, and you put a new bew cam in, they would probably say it runs better than ever!

The power/torque difference between a bew and a bhw is in turbo/tune/injectors. Not the cam. The next time I talk to Geoff at Colt I'll ask him the exact measurement differences between the cams; I know he told me a while back and it's something like .005" lift and 3 or 4 degrees - AKA negligible at best.

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The difference is more in the injector rocker lobes, not so much the valves. You can actually SEE the difference, with the naked eye. BRMs are the same way. BEW/BHW/BRM (the only 4 cyl PD TDIs sold here, but there are probably 20+ 8 valve PD engine codes globally) all have different cams and injectors, as well as a bunch of other differences. Intakes, turbos, exhaust, heads, exhaust, etc.

I will also say that the BHW, in stock form, is a bit more apt to smoke, especially at initial take off, whereas the BEWs won't do it much, and neither do the BRMs. Again, we are talking 100% stock cars, in good working order.

A "reprofiled" cam is not a stock cam, and therefor, for the purposes of this discussion, should be thrown out.

I agree that a mild tune really wakes up an otherwise stock, healthy BHW. Mine has an early RC1 tune, with an intact and functional (but turned down and equipped with a restrictor gasket) EGR. It runs great, it actually gets BETTER fuel economy at average speeds of 70-80 than it does at 60-70, and I have verified this on multiple occasions. And it has gobs of power (makes my 1.8t B5 feel downright poochy). Minimal smoke, usually just a puff on a hard launch and maybe a slight haze at sustained acceleration, but it gets into triple digit speeds so quickly that those periods are brief.

So if you were putting a unmodified new cam in your car, you would be putting in a ___ cam?

Also why don't you like the AMC cams?


QUOTE=oilhammer;4798184]The difference is more in the injector rocker lobes, not so much the valves. You can actually SEE the difference, with the naked eye. BRMs are the same way. BEW/BHW/BRM (the only 4 cyl PD TDIs sold here, but there are probably 20+ 8 valve PD engine codes globally) all have different cams and injectors, as well as a bunch of other differences. Intakes, turbos, exhaust, heads, exhaust, etc.
I will also say that the BHW, in stock form, is a bit more apt to smoke, especially at initial take off, whereas the BEWs won't do it much, and neither do the BRMs. Again, we are talking 100% stock cars, in good working order.
A "reprofiled" cam is not a stock cam, and therefor, for the purposes of this discussion, should be thrown out.
I agree that a mild tune really wakes up an otherwise stock, healthy BHW. Mine has an early RC1 tune, with an intact and functional (but turned down and equipped with a restrictor gasket) EGR. It runs great, it actually gets BETTER fuel economy at average speeds of 70-80 than it does at 60-70, and I have verified this on multiple occasions. And it has gobs of power (makes my 1.8t B5 feel downright poochy). Minimal smoke, usually just a puff on a hard launch and maybe a slight haze at sustained acceleration, but it gets into triple digit speeds so quickly that those periods are brief.[/QUOTE]

It seems theres several of us are redoing cams right now. Thanks everyone for your input. I figured screw it and go with a BRM colt stage 2! For the hassle of messing with it I figured its best to put in what we know works best. If the point of resale comes it should also help with that. Id take a car with a colt cam or Frank06 over any other brand anyday.

I would use a stock, BHW camshaft, which unfortunately is only going to be available through a dealer OR a vendor who is buying directly from a dealer and reselling, as best I can tell. I've not found an aftermarket source for a KS BHW camshaft. But I admit, I've only had occasion to need one only a handful of times, so it has not been a big concern.

I've seen bad things from AMC heads for decades, so I don't hold out a whole lot of faith in one of their camshafts, but admit I have not run across a camshaft by itself that I knew was an AMC unit that has had some sort of problem. However, given the inherent weakness in the PD cam design in general, and their inability to have any tolerance for anything less than "perfect" conditions, I would not be wanting to go for the least expensive possible part.

The OEM cams work fine, so long as the conditions are as perfect as they can be made to be within reason.

This BHW had its original cam when this picture was taken, at nearly 380k miles:

Oilhammer, BoraParts offers this:

"New camshaft for BHW Passat engine codes. Made in the EU by the OEM manufacturer for many other German automakers, often comes in a Febi box."

They can get the OEM VW unit for an addition $330, but I can't afford that. They don't offer an AMC cam for the BHW, though I know I can get them locally.

So if your hands were tied and you could only choose between the Febi and AMC, which would you choose? My understanding is that the Febi cams are cast and the AMC cams are billet.

Dan

I'd untie my hands. Drive another car until I could afford the good cam? I don't know, I have never been in your situation, sorry.

Have you had a bad experience with the Febi cams or is this a similiar situation to the AMC issue you had mentioned earlier in this thread?

I get that you're a big proponent of the the VW dealer cam and others are big of the frank06 and the colt cams and I don't disagree from what I have read they all sound like great cams. I can replace the cam myself and so I save the labour, but this is what I can afford right now. Doing the timing belt, bs delete kit, new motor mounts and the alternator pulley all at once has put a serious dent in my pocket book.

oilhammer said:

I'd untie my hands. Drive another car until I could afford the good cam? I don't know, I have never been in your situation, sorry.

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I have replaced my cam with a Febi cam. It has been about 40k km and no problems. Not too long I know but there you have it...

Was it a BHW or BEW cam?

otty said:

I have replaced my cam with a Febi cam. It has been about 40k km and no problems. Not too long I know but there you have it...

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It was a PD 1.9 8v cam from http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/complete-camshaft-kit-for-1-9-8v-pd-engines.html

Edit: looking at the part numbers, the cam I bought at the above link is the BEW cam.

My engine is an AVF not BHW but they are very similar. I would check out this cam as they have very good prices often...

We have a Febi bew cam in a bhw. It does not seem bad to me. The bhw cam was not worn badly at all and I did not see any difference in power after the swap.

Well... I'm confused now. We've got oilhammer says go with the bhw cam because the bew feels lethargic. We've got 'Jesus is Lord' saying he didn't notice a difference when he went from the bhw cam to the bew cam and that is is what Aaron at bora says... he told me that "if I notice a difference, he wants to know". He sells more bew cams to his b5.5 customers and they have a total of 4 b5.5's in the family and all of them have bew cams. Wouldn't it be awesome to have some dyno results of the various setups. b5.5's with stock bhw, bew cams and then with tune's as well. Wouldn't that make the decision easier?

Yes a dyno would be the only way to tell for sure. If I find any dyno results I will let you know.

Give Frank a call.

Jesus Is Lord said:

Yes a dyno would be the only way to tell for sure. If I find any dyno results I will let you know.

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There you go, just like I said!

I have done a PD cam job with almost every combination out there. I've even put a BRM cam in a BHW in an emergency situation. Car ran perfectly normal and is still putting along 100K later just dandy. The valve lobes are within a few thou of each other on all the cams so that's not going to change squat. If you're putting in an upgraded cam, it's a completely moot point as that's now changed for the better anyway.

The injector lobe ramp is slightly more aggressive on the BRM cam, but the ecu still controls when the injector fires, so now the plunger is 40% into it's stroke vs 36%. Again, not enough to change squat.

It's interesting- long discussion about BRMvsBEWvsBHW cams in a BHW engine, but nothing about torsion value.

Given the variability in power and FE on a stock cam with different torsion values, I find it funny that comments about power on the BEW cam are not accompanied with the different torsion values tried and the results.

That something I would like to see as well Windex. Could it be something as simple as the torsion values simply needing adjustment? I asked oilhammer about getting close to the same hp/torque values with a BEW cam by adjusting the torsion values and he said "no".

Windex said:

It's interesting- long discussion about BRMvsBEWvsBHW cams in a BHW engine, but nothing about torsion value.

Given the variability in power and FE on a stock cam with different torsion values, I find it funny that comments about power on the BEW cam are not accompanied with the different torsion values tried and the results.

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So if I'm understanding you correctly here, are you saying that whether one would install a stock grind BEW or BRM cam in a BHW motor the differences between the 2 are negligible when compared to a stock grind BHW cam?

Why is it then that oilhammer says, "From my experience here at the shop (not my own, as I said, my cams don't fail), I've found that a BEW cam needs a tune inorder to get back up to stock power."?

I'm still not going the OEM cam route, but if an aftermarket BEW cam would only suffer a 1-2% power loss and has the added value of greater reliability/longevity over the BHW cam, then I can live with that. However, if the margins of greater reliability/longevity are really not that great when compared to the BHW cam, then I don't think it makes much sense using the BEW when you would incur no power loss by using the BHW cam.

For the record a tune is in the cards, but not until next year.

Whitbread said:

There you go, just like I said!
I have done a PD cam job with almost every combination out there. I've even put a BRM cam in a BHW in an emergency situation. Car ran perfectly normal and is still putting along 100K later just dandy. The valve lobes are within a few thou of each other on all the cams so that's not going to change squat. If you're putting in an upgraded cam, it's a completely moot point as that's now changed for the better anyway.
The injector lobe ramp is slightly more aggressive on the BRM cam, but the ecu still controls when the injector fires, so now the plunger is 40% into it's stroke vs 36%. Again, not enough to change squat.

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It seems to me that you are after what is cheapest for your car, which if that is what you have to do, then that is what you have to do. We all have our cross to bear. I lived for a year and a half with a tarp over a hole in the roof of my house until I had saved up enough to install a metal "forever" roof.

Will your car run with the wrong cam in it? Sure. Will it run with no balance shafts? Absolutely. Heck, you could use Prothe parts and it'll start and run. But how well and for how long?

You've asked for, and received, several opinions. They may differ from each other's, and from your own. You have to make your own decision, and if that decision is largely predicated on how much money you are able or willing to spend, then there is your answer.

I think everyone should know, however, that these cars (Volkswagens in general, but perhaps B5s a bit more than some of the other lesser models) can be expensive to keep on the road. There are far less expensive cars to own and operate. Parting ways with it while you still can would be the cheapest solution of all. I could probably sell both my B5s, and purchase a half dozen cheapo cars and drive each one until it dies and go on to the next, and never worry about getting to where I need to be for the remainder of my years. But what's the fun in that?

Mine is geared. I'm not overly worried about the hex shaft, although I know it may become an issue some day.

I've got some geared cars that have gone over 200k miles since the conversion. Mine has only gone 90k. I may drop the pan and pull my shaft out and see what condition is it in, but that won't be for quite a while.

I did get the opportunity to pull one out of a CBEA car (same parts as we upgraded the BHWs to) at nearly 200k and it was worn, but no more than I would have expected it to be. I simply flipped the hex shaft around and gave it some more life, but I know the female hole of the #2 balance shaft is certainly worn some too.

I am working on a welded-in solution for these, but it is a bit of a pain since you need to disassemble the balance shaft module in order to install everything and the weld needs to be perfectly straight and true so the shaft doesn't wobble and fatigue and break right away.

It may be easier to do on a NEW assembly, rather than a used one, but I have lots of old chained parts to tinker with.