Official: SFBA Dyno Day 4/10

Dan
You have hit the nail on the head. Dynos just don't have the air flow like you would on the road. Just wondering, how many minutes was it between runs on the same car last Sat?

Greg

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Just wondering, how many minutes was it between runs on the same car last Sat?

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Half an hour or so. The time it took to change injectors.

Chris

A half hour is more than enough for cool a down period.

Greg

When I go on the dyno for some serious "reproducable" numbers there are a few things that I do..

First, make absolutely sure the car is straight on the rollers... if not, take the time to get it that way (meaning, you should not have to hold the wheel when giving the car power).

Second, I attach a Vagcom to the car and monitor the IAT. I note the "general" range of the IAT with the car sitting, hood open and fans turned on before the first pull. I use this as my "baseline" IAT temp that I will start from. I then make a pull. After the pull I leave the engine running and monitor the IAT. I won't make another pull until the IAT returns to my "baseline" temp. (Usually 3-5 minutes).

Third, I will mist water on the IC and IAT to help them get back to my baseline as quickly as possible. (Remember, my IAT is mounted above the engine on my car).

Fourth, I will make sure that I have at least 1/2 tank (and maybe more) so that fuel heating does not become an issue. Also, I will get to the dyno and let the car site for while and cool down (without the engine running) allowing the fuel to cool back down too.

Fifth, When running on the dyno I will accellerate as softly as possible in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, watching to make sure the IAT hasn't gone beyond the baseline before I hit fourth and start sampling.

From my experience, these are the items that I've documented to help get reproducible dyno results.

Keep up the great dyno testing! We all need to learn !

Gary M

Thanks Gary, we will add this to our procedure for the next test.

It goes without saying that water temp should be "normal", and also oil temp/pressure if that can be measured easily. These might be second order factors though.

Chris

I am planning on doing the second dyno trial of PP520 vs. B203, and I need your opinions. The previous test was a baseline of Upsolute and B205 compared to changing just injectors.

I would like the next test to be just PP520 vs. B203; it seems this is the most interesting comparison at this time. To help save my turbo, I'd like to make a few changes, which I believe are still fair for a valid comparison. I will put in the Upsolute big injector program, a DG race pipe (with Epsilonian device), and an Oldman intake. (Oh, and not performance related exactly, but the flakey Dawes hookup will be repaired.)

Let me know if this plan meets the original objectives (to see which injector performs better, B203 or PP520), given the base conditions will be different.

Thanks,

Chris

Do you guys think there is any difference with the 2-year-old B205 injectors and the ones currently available? That was the case with the "216's" as I recall.

Hesh: Sounds good to me. I have an Ep device if you need to borrow it. Are you going to redyno at the timing belt GTG?

So have the results been posted in another thread somewhere else?

-Jack

Yes, I will dyno on May 1 if Ray will be up for it.

I have an EP device too.

Chris

Chris, have you noticed any appreciable difference between the B216 and the B205 you had in the car?

I am wondering if the 2 year old b205 is the same as the new ones. Any insights?

All the TDI-110 hp models use DSLA 150P 520 nozzles on KBEL58P holders. Only difference between AFN/AHF and ASV is the opening pressure on the pilot injection (190 vs 220 bar). Main injection is the same at 300 bar. Of course the elec fitting on the NBF is changed for '03, but it is still a KBEL58P holder. Nozzles are exactly the same DSLA 150P 520.

The 90 hp injectors use several differnt nozzles (still KBEL58P holders though) Still DSLA 150P XXX, with the XXX being 357, 442, 672, or 706.

Strange how the 442 nozzle (0.184mm in microscope) in a 5 cylinder transporter injector makes less power per cylinder than a 4 cylinder 706 nozzle (0.170mm in microscope)

Peter, yes, my spongeware needed readaptation to not stomp so hard on the pedal. It pulls better everywhere. I've also noticed higher boost pressure (17-18). Smoke is down too, except at the 2k RPM area. At half a tank, it's getting equal mileage to the 205's.

Chris

Thanks Kerma. I was trying to see how my setup, which includes the new B205 and RC3.1 would compare. If the nozzles are the same, are you of the opinion that the higher initial break pressure is not a factor in max power output?

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Strange how the 442 nozzle (0.184mm in microscope) in a 5 cylinder transporter injector makes less power per cylinder than a 4 cylinder 706 nozzle (0.170mm in microscope)

[/ QUOTE ] I expanded on a theory that I read here where Peter Pyce mentioned that some time around 2002 Europe tightened the emissions guidelines and Bosch responded with injector bodies that somehow make more power than previous designs. This allowed the nozzles to be reduced which reduced the amount of smoke these engines make. The problem is that VW (Bosch?) did not change the part numbers on the affected parts, hence the confusion (.184 nozzles actually measuring .170, B216 injectors running like they have nozzles that are .216 but are in fact .203, etc).

I have personally felt the difference that newer DSLA 150P 706 nozzles in newer KBEL58P holders have over my original ('98) DSLA 150P 706 nozzles in the original KBEL58P holders. There was a definite increase in power above 2500 RPM and both smoke and mileage improved.

The way you make the same power through smaller holes is by lengthening the injection window and bumping the boost. basically you need to change the engine management. you still must burn X fuel to make X power.

Did you actually take apart the '98 injectors to inspect the nozzles? They are probably 357 or 442. Remember the A3 have slightly lower injection pressure than A4 also. Also, these injectors with their nozzles do wear out over time. Nozzles wear out, but the rest of the injector does not to the same degree. Newer injectors could very well have performed better, even if everything else was identical.

There are several series of KBEL58P holders- they all have a suffix just like the DSLA150P nozzles do. For example, the 110 hp tdi all have DSLA150P520 nozzles, but the holders can be either KBEL58P-144, -134, -133, 94, or -87. Ths number suffix is just the "drawing" number. There could be no functional differences besides maybe break pressure, perhaps the difference is only the car brand they came as OE with. These same holder "numbers" are used on the various other VE pump tdi, they are all physically interchangeable with the nozzles.

As an OE manufacturer, Bosch CANNOT make unannounced changes to parts that are EPA certified for emissions. When a diesel engine gets its certification, it is assigned a "CPL" or "controlled Parts List" number. The CPL lists the specific injector and nozzle part numbers, along with the injection pump and other key parts. The design specification for each part is included in the CPL. For nozzles this includes the NUMBER AND SIZE OF THE NOZZLE HOLES. IF the design changes, it is a new part and must be re-certified for the CPL if it is to be included in an OE assembly. Bosch can't make changes willy-nilly midstream, even if it is a better design. Sure, these are European gray market parts, but the procedures are similar.

KERMA, all I can say is that my holders are different between the A3 and A4 but the nozzles were "706" from both the new and the old. I can also tell you that my car had been dyno'd before (albeit on a different dyno) and it has more HP and torque now with the only difference being the injector holders. Mind you, when I put the new injectors into my car, my car felt stronger than it ever had. Clutch slip in third, fourth, and fifth were at will, and the newer injectors made the car feel lighter.

I just went to my garage and took apart the "184" injectors to verify that my original nozzles are "706" and they are as well as the nozzles that I bought from Dan, which were from a VW A4 TDI. The holders read: (old) 2FH KBEL58P 144 and (new) 028 130202P BOO or 0432193696 (not sure which were the correct part number but the former number followed the VW/Audi emblems and the latter numbers followed the Bosch emblem). The older holders are marked with 300 bar and the new holders are marked with 200/300 bar.

If you want, I can send you my old injectors/nozzles as well as the new injectors/nozzles that I got from Dan and you can try them in your own car.

I absolutely understand that Fuel + Air = Power, More Fuel + More Air = More Power but there's something to be said about how the fuel is injected into an engine to make more power. This is the only explanation I have for the B216 injectors which have smaller holes than the B205 injectors but make more power. Less fuel = more power, what a concept. I'd venture a guess that the PP520 nozzles installed on the holders from the B216 would yield even more impressive power gains!

Very intriguing, I am thinking that this may be good for mine as well /images/graemlins/ooo.gif