iwannajettatdi
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Location
- Salem, OR
- TDI
- 2015 Brilliant Black Audi Q5 3.0TDI, 2014 Tempest Blue metallic Jetta Sportwagen TDI, 2002 Blue Eurovan Weekender BHW TDI
This is a copy of the post I made on the UK t4 forums, pardon some of the questions...
I am in the process of planning for a swap into a 2002 Eurovan that I picked up for quite a deal with a slipping transmission and 176k miles. Because of the "lifetime ATF" from VW the previous owner never changed the ATF until it started acting a little funky about a year ago . Sheesh. Shortly after getting it home I replaced the valve body in the 01p but id didn't make a difference, so my guess is the whole transmission will need to be rebuilt/replaced at a tune of $2-5k. Yuck. I'd rather have a manual diesel drivetrain anyways which prompted this idea. I like the 02m because it's a little more beefy than the 02j, the 02b and 02g gearboxes that are clocked appropriately for the eurovan are only 5 speeds and to find a syncro one is quite difficult and expensive in europe. Plus I like 6 speeds, just a weird fascination of mine. An 02j with a slightly taller 5th would work as well, I'm just worried about the jump from 4th to 5th with the weight of a loaded eurovan and having to downshift on most hills.
I know the ALH motor well as it was in my 99.5 Jetta that I pushed to 350k miles and at one point swapped from the 5 speed 02j to a 6 speed 02m gearbox from the UK from RyanP. My idea is for a mild build on the motor with 150 or so bhp and 250-300 torque. My problem is all of the van gearboxes from that era are 5 speed, and geared quite low. The 2.5tdi came with a syncro transfer box and a 5 speed as well, but to find one of those gearboxes is quite like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack, but the stack is the size of a football stadium. Plus bolting a 4 cylinder to a 5 cylinder transmission is difficult. They are quite unobtanium here, and when we find them they end up being $2-4k plus shipping and then all the associated parts are difficult to source as they have to all come from overseas or eBay.de. Shipping a 2.5tdi from the UK would be the easiest and logical option, however because of the EPA and California emissions folks here I wouldn't be able to register and drive it on road. Well, not easily or cheaply.
Side bar: With the above HP/Tq figures, would a VR6 240mm SMF and a g60 clutch hold? I've just finished reading the Audi TT->TDI swap and don't want to go through the southbend clutch fiasco that he went through.
To match with the 1.9L TDI, I'd like to get one of the 02m gearboxes that mate to a 4 cylinder VAG motor and I'm going to have to play with the gear ratios a bit, but I've been researching quite a bit on the Vortex and I think I've been able to figure out the ratios I want to use coupled with the larger tires for the eurovan. My issue stems from the current Quattro boxes available to me here in the states are in the Audi TT cars or in a few of the VW cars such as GLI or R32, but the R32 boxes have bellhousings set up for a VR6 motor that won't fit a 4 cylinder. The euro diesel 4motion boxes are geared such that in the car I was going 70 right around 2000 rpms, which was fine for the smaller Jetta, but with the larger tires of the van 65-70 would put you closer to 1800rpms or less. While this is in the optimum torque range, I have concern that with a heavier, bigger, less aerodynamic van, and especially with the syncro hooked up this will require frequent downshifts on the interstates and hills or for passing, which will be annoying. I've got graphs of probably 5-6 different gearboxes with different tire sizes, comparing each other to both the 02j 5 speed and 02m 6 speed I had in the jetta, and I should probably add what the 02b/g gearboxes look like as well to give something nice to match up to.
I think what I'm going to end up doing is to get a gearbox from an Audi TT 225 with a 1.8T motor and the quattro set up and as I'll have the box apart to put in a front LSD (I'm thinking Wavetrac over Peloquin/Quaiffe for offroad travel... I'd love to discuss more with anyone who has actual experience with them) I was contemplating swapping in a diesel ring/pinion set. Unfortunately for the 02m this means two pinion gears that are matched to the ring gear as it's a three shaft gearbox, but such is life. The best fit I found and could live with was from a Sharan, but the guys at Dutch autoparts didn't seem to think a Sharan FD would fit in the box. I seemed to have found Sharan FD ratios for the 02m, but maybe they have a slightly larger bellhousing? I will be able to live with the slightly higher RPMs of the TT box by fitting larger tires though. The graph below shows an 02m with mk4 sized tires in blue, an 02j 5th with mk4 tires in yellow, then in red the TT box in 6th with 225/60-16s, looks like from the UK guys this is the biggest size that will fit on the van. Would put me about 100rpms over where the 02j sits in top gear. I don't mind the extra shifting, and I like the idea of a closer ratio gearbox in a heavy van and if we do any off roading it would be nice to keep it close. The green is a TT box with the Sharan FD of 79/22/27 for the ring/pinion1/pinion2, this give 1-4 FD of 3.591 and 5-6/R FD of 2.926. The green graph is with the stock size eurovan tires, with the larger tires I was looking at the rpms would be about 75-100 rpms lower I think. If anyone has any info on whether this will fit in an Audi 02m gearbox, let me know. Awfully custom with the swapping of gears, but I think it would make it worthwhile. Maybe down the road for sure. It would definitely help the mileage on the long drives.
From what I can find, the transfer box that bolts to the gearbox is a 17/27 ratio, out to the propshaft, into the rear diff and gets converted back with a 27/17 ratio to keep the wheels at the same speeds. I think I want/need a viscous coupler, but I haven't found much info on them for the T4s. Also, I think in the UK the 2.5TDI transporters could come with a locking rear differential, if anyone has one or a lead for one let me know so I can pick it up. Also, is there somewhere I can find the correct length of the propshafts so that I can have some made up, or attempt to piece this together myself with euro parts? Would a Tiguan rear diff and Haldex setup work in a eurovan?
My parts list (a work in progress):
motor - can source locally - I know the mounting angles are different, I'm already working on an adapter plate for motor/gearbox in the van. See below. Apparently Frans is also planning on a setup. I'm waiting (im)patiently.
Motor mounts, dogbone - custom
CV axles for the passenger side from transfer box to wheel - likely custom?
T4 oil pan and oil pickup tube to fit the new motor angle. See above. ABL 1.9TD stuff should bolt up and would work, right? Will also need to drill a new dipstick tube.
Turbo Downpipe - Do you guys know of anyone that makes a syncro/quattro/4motion downpipe that would work with the transfer box and rear driveshaft in the way?
TT quattro gearbox from 225 1.8T with LSD - can source locally
transfer box - locally
propshaft - ?
viscous coupler - ?
rear differential plus carrier +/- Haldex controller (?) - Can I use one from a Tiguan or an R32 and pick this up in the US? I can't seem to find much info on actual ratios in the rear differentials.
rear subframe, swing arms/control arms, CV axles, hubs, brakes
Lots of wiring
In all likelyhood I'm just going to be sourcing the gearbox first and doing the rear bits/syncro stuff at a later date once the van is back on the road and operational.
I think the motor/gearbox adapter plate that will allow me to clock the Jetta mounting position roughly 40-50* forward to fit the eurovan is my sticky point at the moment (Ideally 45ish degrees?). From what I've found the ALH motors are 15-20* back towards the firewall in the G/J/NB and are about 25-27* forward towards the radiator in the Eurovans. I've found drawings for an industrial ALH TDI, but can't seem to find proper gearbox measurements for the normal ALH motor as it's mounted in the Jetta/Golf/New Beetle.
Having these drawings I could come up with something in CAD that would allow me to simply rotate the mounting position around the appropriate distance and build it on a 1/2"-5/8" spacer to be able to keep the 02m properly positioned for the transfer box output. Probably would need a flywheel spacer to match and use longer bolts I think, at least to start with. I could take this to any machine shop and have them mill it out for me on the CNC machine, as well as come up with a flywheel spacer to fit the adapter plate. I've been trading emails with one of the members here that's done a few of the swaps to other nonfamily vehicles, but I haven't heard back after he was going to speak with his machinist. Probably busy, but not sure. Any help on this is appreciated as well. Drawings and/or measurements would suffice, I've searched a lot and only been able to find a few drawings that aren't laid out or notated well. The hard part is the dowel position related to crank centerline, if these are off even a few thousandths it'll cause premature wear of the input bushing/bearing, wobble, and clutch destruction. If I've got the drawings I don't mind to alter as needed for what I want to do, just need an actual ALH bellhousing pattern with the lower oil pan bolts as well.
Here is the link for the engine side bellhousing pattern http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/tdi_engine_cad_drawing_small.pdf . I've also found the crank/flywheel bolt pattern as well.
Thanks!
Ryan
I am in the process of planning for a swap into a 2002 Eurovan that I picked up for quite a deal with a slipping transmission and 176k miles. Because of the "lifetime ATF" from VW the previous owner never changed the ATF until it started acting a little funky about a year ago . Sheesh. Shortly after getting it home I replaced the valve body in the 01p but id didn't make a difference, so my guess is the whole transmission will need to be rebuilt/replaced at a tune of $2-5k. Yuck. I'd rather have a manual diesel drivetrain anyways which prompted this idea. I like the 02m because it's a little more beefy than the 02j, the 02b and 02g gearboxes that are clocked appropriately for the eurovan are only 5 speeds and to find a syncro one is quite difficult and expensive in europe. Plus I like 6 speeds, just a weird fascination of mine. An 02j with a slightly taller 5th would work as well, I'm just worried about the jump from 4th to 5th with the weight of a loaded eurovan and having to downshift on most hills.
I know the ALH motor well as it was in my 99.5 Jetta that I pushed to 350k miles and at one point swapped from the 5 speed 02j to a 6 speed 02m gearbox from the UK from RyanP. My idea is for a mild build on the motor with 150 or so bhp and 250-300 torque. My problem is all of the van gearboxes from that era are 5 speed, and geared quite low. The 2.5tdi came with a syncro transfer box and a 5 speed as well, but to find one of those gearboxes is quite like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack, but the stack is the size of a football stadium. Plus bolting a 4 cylinder to a 5 cylinder transmission is difficult. They are quite unobtanium here, and when we find them they end up being $2-4k plus shipping and then all the associated parts are difficult to source as they have to all come from overseas or eBay.de. Shipping a 2.5tdi from the UK would be the easiest and logical option, however because of the EPA and California emissions folks here I wouldn't be able to register and drive it on road. Well, not easily or cheaply.
Side bar: With the above HP/Tq figures, would a VR6 240mm SMF and a g60 clutch hold? I've just finished reading the Audi TT->TDI swap and don't want to go through the southbend clutch fiasco that he went through.
To match with the 1.9L TDI, I'd like to get one of the 02m gearboxes that mate to a 4 cylinder VAG motor and I'm going to have to play with the gear ratios a bit, but I've been researching quite a bit on the Vortex and I think I've been able to figure out the ratios I want to use coupled with the larger tires for the eurovan. My issue stems from the current Quattro boxes available to me here in the states are in the Audi TT cars or in a few of the VW cars such as GLI or R32, but the R32 boxes have bellhousings set up for a VR6 motor that won't fit a 4 cylinder. The euro diesel 4motion boxes are geared such that in the car I was going 70 right around 2000 rpms, which was fine for the smaller Jetta, but with the larger tires of the van 65-70 would put you closer to 1800rpms or less. While this is in the optimum torque range, I have concern that with a heavier, bigger, less aerodynamic van, and especially with the syncro hooked up this will require frequent downshifts on the interstates and hills or for passing, which will be annoying. I've got graphs of probably 5-6 different gearboxes with different tire sizes, comparing each other to both the 02j 5 speed and 02m 6 speed I had in the jetta, and I should probably add what the 02b/g gearboxes look like as well to give something nice to match up to.
I think what I'm going to end up doing is to get a gearbox from an Audi TT 225 with a 1.8T motor and the quattro set up and as I'll have the box apart to put in a front LSD (I'm thinking Wavetrac over Peloquin/Quaiffe for offroad travel... I'd love to discuss more with anyone who has actual experience with them) I was contemplating swapping in a diesel ring/pinion set. Unfortunately for the 02m this means two pinion gears that are matched to the ring gear as it's a three shaft gearbox, but such is life. The best fit I found and could live with was from a Sharan, but the guys at Dutch autoparts didn't seem to think a Sharan FD would fit in the box. I seemed to have found Sharan FD ratios for the 02m, but maybe they have a slightly larger bellhousing? I will be able to live with the slightly higher RPMs of the TT box by fitting larger tires though. The graph below shows an 02m with mk4 sized tires in blue, an 02j 5th with mk4 tires in yellow, then in red the TT box in 6th with 225/60-16s, looks like from the UK guys this is the biggest size that will fit on the van. Would put me about 100rpms over where the 02j sits in top gear. I don't mind the extra shifting, and I like the idea of a closer ratio gearbox in a heavy van and if we do any off roading it would be nice to keep it close. The green is a TT box with the Sharan FD of 79/22/27 for the ring/pinion1/pinion2, this give 1-4 FD of 3.591 and 5-6/R FD of 2.926. The green graph is with the stock size eurovan tires, with the larger tires I was looking at the rpms would be about 75-100 rpms lower I think. If anyone has any info on whether this will fit in an Audi 02m gearbox, let me know. Awfully custom with the swapping of gears, but I think it would make it worthwhile. Maybe down the road for sure. It would definitely help the mileage on the long drives.
From what I can find, the transfer box that bolts to the gearbox is a 17/27 ratio, out to the propshaft, into the rear diff and gets converted back with a 27/17 ratio to keep the wheels at the same speeds. I think I want/need a viscous coupler, but I haven't found much info on them for the T4s. Also, I think in the UK the 2.5TDI transporters could come with a locking rear differential, if anyone has one or a lead for one let me know so I can pick it up. Also, is there somewhere I can find the correct length of the propshafts so that I can have some made up, or attempt to piece this together myself with euro parts? Would a Tiguan rear diff and Haldex setup work in a eurovan?
My parts list (a work in progress):
motor - can source locally - I know the mounting angles are different, I'm already working on an adapter plate for motor/gearbox in the van. See below. Apparently Frans is also planning on a setup. I'm waiting (im)patiently.
Motor mounts, dogbone - custom
CV axles for the passenger side from transfer box to wheel - likely custom?
T4 oil pan and oil pickup tube to fit the new motor angle. See above. ABL 1.9TD stuff should bolt up and would work, right? Will also need to drill a new dipstick tube.
Turbo Downpipe - Do you guys know of anyone that makes a syncro/quattro/4motion downpipe that would work with the transfer box and rear driveshaft in the way?
TT quattro gearbox from 225 1.8T with LSD - can source locally
transfer box - locally
propshaft - ?
viscous coupler - ?
rear differential plus carrier +/- Haldex controller (?) - Can I use one from a Tiguan or an R32 and pick this up in the US? I can't seem to find much info on actual ratios in the rear differentials.
rear subframe, swing arms/control arms, CV axles, hubs, brakes
Lots of wiring
In all likelyhood I'm just going to be sourcing the gearbox first and doing the rear bits/syncro stuff at a later date once the van is back on the road and operational.
I think the motor/gearbox adapter plate that will allow me to clock the Jetta mounting position roughly 40-50* forward to fit the eurovan is my sticky point at the moment (Ideally 45ish degrees?). From what I've found the ALH motors are 15-20* back towards the firewall in the G/J/NB and are about 25-27* forward towards the radiator in the Eurovans. I've found drawings for an industrial ALH TDI, but can't seem to find proper gearbox measurements for the normal ALH motor as it's mounted in the Jetta/Golf/New Beetle.
Having these drawings I could come up with something in CAD that would allow me to simply rotate the mounting position around the appropriate distance and build it on a 1/2"-5/8" spacer to be able to keep the 02m properly positioned for the transfer box output. Probably would need a flywheel spacer to match and use longer bolts I think, at least to start with. I could take this to any machine shop and have them mill it out for me on the CNC machine, as well as come up with a flywheel spacer to fit the adapter plate. I've been trading emails with one of the members here that's done a few of the swaps to other nonfamily vehicles, but I haven't heard back after he was going to speak with his machinist. Probably busy, but not sure. Any help on this is appreciated as well. Drawings and/or measurements would suffice, I've searched a lot and only been able to find a few drawings that aren't laid out or notated well. The hard part is the dowel position related to crank centerline, if these are off even a few thousandths it'll cause premature wear of the input bushing/bearing, wobble, and clutch destruction. If I've got the drawings I don't mind to alter as needed for what I want to do, just need an actual ALH bellhousing pattern with the lower oil pan bolts as well.
Here is the link for the engine side bellhousing pattern http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/tdi_engine_cad_drawing_small.pdf . I've also found the crank/flywheel bolt pattern as well.
Thanks!
Ryan
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