CR engine HPFP analysis

eddif

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I do failure analyses on marine propulsion systems as part of my business. Often an analysis has been sub'd out to a metallurgy lab with an electron microscope. Rarely does that reveal anything worthwhile. Failed bearings are so chewed up that any hints of a cause are lost. Dimensions can't be verified, hardness has changed, surface finish lost, etc. Sometimes the report ends up stating "for some reason the bearings ate themselves", although I have to use somewhat different wording if I want to get paid.

Picking through a failed HPFP will likewise probably not reveal a cause.

But if anyone has a failed pump they want to send me, I'd love to go through it!!
What you have to do is do tests that are done before total failure. You have to get enough testing done to catch the development of problems before total failure.
+++++++++++++++++

The ultimate situation is to do inspections on a few HPFP's in a time series. Unfortunately we seldom get this sort of data in failure investigations.
As far as rebuild parts are concerned, as your VW dealer or better yet talk to DFIS.
Here is the same statement by VLS GUY. He just calls it "in a time series". Investigation must be done in steps. Since there are failing HPFPs the testing must be done. If one person loses waranty that is a small price to pay for a solution. Of course I do not want to go buy a car for testing LOL. But, you never can tell when one may be donated.

I would not think the HPFP is worth rebuilding. I would be using the rebuild procedures to arrive at procedures to conduct the failure investigation.
I agree that Lubricity is evident on the cam/ roller interface. We also must determine if is lubricity problem for the fuel or the metal being used for either the cam or roller is the problem. Poor material design choice or bad process quality control during manufacturing could be the problem. In other words besides looking at diesel fuel quality the metallurgy of the parts need to be looked at as well.
Here is a statement which I suppose says. Try a modification and after a time check re-check, and see how it is doing (wear patterns, metal analysis etc)
++++++++++++++++++

On the samples I have had here, it really looks like the roller/piston somehow cocked sideways in its bore. The cam has a severe wear spot right in the center.
Is this a total failure? Does rotation occur early or late in the failure?
+++++++++++++++++++

I don't think Bosch would take kindly to some upstarts telling them that their design has problems. This particularly true since they have several dozen computer simulations and lab run time telling them this just shouldn't happen. Never mistake a simulation or the lab for actual operating conditions or problems like this result.
Bosch likely was asked to come up with a cheap, compact design and this pump was the result.
One thing I was wondering about: If the pump gets warmer than it should what does cooking the diesel fuel do to the lubricity of the fuel and those lubricity additives to the fuel particularly after shutdown? Anyone know?
I do think demonstrating correct modifications that work might get some attention from owners and possibly VW.
+++++++++++++++++

Veteran Member nhdoc

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Nashua, NH
TDI(s): '10 Jetta TDI Cup

The first rule of product design is to design a product robust enough to operate under the conditions it is likely to encounter in the field. Any product which doesn't meet that goal will likely have very high rates of failure in the field and I believe this is what VW has with the HPFP design. It has no factor of safety built into it and was designed so close to the edge of failure that encountering fuel in the field which isn't "flawless" is probably causing many of them to self-destruct. But that's not our problem as owners, it is their problem. I have said this before, but fuel in the field is very often contaminated with water, low concentrations of gasoline, rust, dirt, dust, grit, grime, whatever. If not we wouldn't need fuel filters at all. VW knows this, they have been making diesel cars for decades and know sometimes fuel isn't perfect. In the past the systems have been robust enough to "absorb" the issue, usually without the owner even realizing there was less than perfect fuel in his car.

Even when accidentally refueled with gasoline older systems were robust enough to be able to be drained and refilled with no long term consequences.

Great post at the end of a locked thread.
++++++++++++++++
If I missed a person who has gotten this all together excuse me.

So two main HPFP approaches? :)
1... Modify, test, and eventually improve the stock design units.
2... Ask for a heavy duty replacement from VW.

I think dweisel might have hit on one design improvement. Install a bronze (or other material) sleeve in the HPFP roller housing assembly bore.

This all does not mention the level of additives to bring the fuel up to spec. so a stock HPFP would survive. This also does not mention the level of additives to protect in case of mixed fueling using a stock pump. A level probably beyond reason, and a level that would overpower the exhaust treatment and not be possible.

The final solution is to improve the pump some and find a legal and accepted additive package. IMHO

eddif
 

Derrel H Green

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How would we do that?

What you have to do is do tests that are done before total failure. You have to get enough testing done to catch the development of problems before total failure.
+++++++++++++++++

Here is the same statement by VLS GUY. He just calls it "in a time series". Investigation must be done in steps. Since there are failing HPFPs the testing must be done. If one person loses waranty that is a small price to pay for a solution. Of course I do not want to go buy a car for testing LOL. But, you never can tell when one may be donated.

Here is a statement which I suppose says. Try a modification and after a time check re-check, and see how it is doing (wear patterns, metal analysis etc)
++++++++++++++++++

Is this a total failure? Does rotation occur early or late in the failure?
+++++++++++++++++++

I do think demonstrating correct modifications that work might get some attention from owners and possibly VW.
+++++++++++++++++
:)

Doesn't everything happen too quickly once the failure process
starts to be able to catch it as it progresses? :confused:

:D

D
 

eddif

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:)

Doesn't everything happen too quickly once the failure process
starts to be able to catch it as it progresses? :confused:

:D

D
That can be true, and is true in a lot of cases.

This is why you must pull the high pressure element multiple times, at low mileage intervals and Hope to catch a failure just starting. If it gets contrary you might have to invoke a failure. Do not ask about it.

This can only be done by one person who is well aware of the possible down side to all this. It would have been better done at the factory with a pile of parts to work with.

eddif
 

hamfactorial

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I've been following this thread with some interest since June, when I bought my 2010 Jetta TDI. I had not heard about VW switching pump manufacturers, I thought Bosch made them and continues to do so. Is there an old post that I've missed?
 

cardinarky

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Since I own a 2010 Jetta TDI Sportwagen I am obviously very concerned regarding the HPFP failures. I am very worried regarding the direction from Bosch on the break-in procedure to insure longevity of the pump. I know that was not even remotely followed by the dealer.
Because of this, I have been talking to the Law Firm that filed the class action suit against BMW and their identical fuel pump failures.
If anyone is interested in taking their problem further, you could contact me by PM and I could provide you with contact information that might provide you with some further assistance.
 

tdiatlast

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Check out "Water in my Fuel" thread in "Fuels and Lubricants" (sorry, I don't know how to post a link..)

2010 TDI was fueled with diesel contaminated with a LOT of water. Interesting thread, and of real value to you guys examining the HPFP failure issues.
 

eddif

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Check out "Water in my Fuel" thread in "Fuels and Lubricants" (sorry, I don't know how to post a link..)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=298465
2010 TDI was fueled with diesel contaminated with a LOT of water. Interesting thread, and of real value to you guys examining the HPFP failure issues.
Is this a car that would benefit from a dealership (?) HPFP roller inspection?

eddif
 

tdiatlast

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Is this a car that would benefit from a dealership (?) HPFP roller inspection?

eddif
I think this car should be closely monitored by you guys. The OP's BF is the guilty party here, seems to have lots of "old-school" diesel knowledge, but they're learning the hard way that they're comparing apples with oranges.

The OP seems interested in learning more about her car, Maybe a private message to her would encourage her to participate?
 

Derrel H Green

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No Changes to HPFPs

I've been following this thread with some interest since June, when I bought my 2010 Jetta TDI. I had not heard about VW switching pump manufacturers, I thought Bosch made them and continues to do so. Is there an old post that I've missed?
:)

I checked yesterday morning with the parts manager at my dealership while having the 20K mile
service performed, and the part number for the HPFP continues to be exactly the same,
so from that prospective, there is/has NOT BEEN ANY CHANGES MADE TO THE HPFP!

:D

D
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
VAG is funny with part numbers though. Sometimes they assign a new number, and nothing [obvious] has changed, other times they change something and it still carries the same part number as before. I would not go on ETKA's part number assignment for the part alone as an indication of any possible improvements to the parts.
 

nikhsub1

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VAG is funny with part numbers though. Sometimes they assign a new number, and nothing [obvious] has changed, other times they change something and it still carries the same part number as before. I would not go on ETKA's part number assignment for the part alone as an indication of any possible improvements to the parts.
Precisely. Not only that, if they did in fact change the pump or its design, the last thing they might want to do is assign a new part number. This would surely alert people in the know that VW has indeed acknowledged a problem and is silently trying to fix it.
 
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HornetHandler

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Precisely. Not only that, if they did in fact change the pump or its design, the last thing they might want to do is assign a new part number. This would surely alert people in the know that VW has indeed acknowledged a problem and is silently trying to fix it.
This may or may not apply in this case, but many times when a manufacturer uses a suppliers part, they change it into a part number of their own and cross reference it back to their suppliers part number. This way the part is not easily identified by the consumer and it ensures that consumers return to the manufacturer, in this case VW to get the part. The OEM of the pump most certainly would change the part number if there was a change in the pump; however, VW has no real obligation, other than their internal configuration management policy/ procedures, to change their cross reference number to the pump.
 

acrossthepond

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I still don't know why the part number, here in Europe, is slightly different to the US one.....my post back in August raised this difference.
I wonder ?
 

HornetHandler

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I still don't know why the part number, here in Europe, is slightly different to the US one.....my post back in August raised this difference.
I wonder ?

Hard to say without the drawings. Can you post the different numbers. Usually only the last part of the number changes to indicate a revision or minor change, e.g., they'll add a letter suffix to identify a change in the old part. Again, some suppliers, manufactures will create their own part number as a way of controlling the part so that it is only available through them. I.e., all of their internal documents refer to the OEM part number, but once it gets installed onto the next higher assembly, it takes on the manufacturers (VW) part number and it becomes very difficult for the consumer to find out the exact origin and configuration of the OEM part. Some believe this practice to be somewhat unethical. It is, however legal.


Rob
 

cardinarky

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For example having a steel forger change a heat treat process slightly to obtain a higher finished hardness would not necessitate a part number change.
Personally I feel the problem is in the supplier consistent material arena and not in the design of the part.
Seeing and reading all of the posts with metal shavings in the filter and the fuel tank is a strong indicator that someone in the supply chain was not following constant/consistent heating/cooling practices with the steel. You do not test every part in a lot, just a representative sample.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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For example having a steel forger change a heat treat process slightly to obtain a higher finished hardness would not necessitate a part number change.
Correct since the form, fit, or function did not change. However, usually an identifier would be added to the part number (rev. # or letter suffix - A, B, C) so that the parts with the higher hardness could be tracked going forward.
 

HornetHandler

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For example having a steel forger change a heat treat process slightly to obtain a higher finished hardness would not necessitate a part number change.
Personally I feel the problem is in the supplier consistent material arena and not in the design of the part.
Seeing and reading all of the posts with metal shavings in the filter and the fuel tank is a strong indicator that someone in the supply chain was not following constant/consistent heating/cooling practices with the steel. You do not test every part in a lot, just a representative sample.


Actually that is the kind of thing that could drive a part number change. Anytime you change the existing specification the new part needs to be identified as such. Adding a letter suffix changes the part number.
 
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tdiatlast

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So, w/o a number change, changing the manufacturing process (forging) would preclude being able to visually identify a "design" change, right?
So, if Bosch/VWoA go this route, there's no way for anyone in the field to "see" a change.
 

aja8888

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So, w/o a number change, changing the manufacturing process (forging) would preclude being able to visually identify a "design" change, right?
So, if Bosch/VWoA go this route, there's no way for anyone in the field to "see" a change.
Before Bosch or any other supplier would entertain a modification to a part (HPFP) which has already been extensively tested and approved by the customer (VW, BMW), a lot of snarly conversations/meetings would be going on between both (all) parties.

Issues on the table would include, but not be limited to, are:

1. Reasons for redesign/change,
2. Who pays for new engineering,
3. Settlement of claims against vendor guarantees,
4. Cost of modifying/testing new unit to meet new specs,
5. How to settle claims for units currently in use,
6. Warranties for new units,
7. Implementation schedules,
8 Etc.

Something like this would not be a friendly exercise as egos and company reputations are involved.

Notice how quietly VW (and their supplier) implemented the chain drive upgrade to the B5.5 BHW engines. No one even knew it was done until 4 years were passed and parts just started showing up.:rolleyes:

Don't hold you breath for an upgraded pump unless these start disintegrating en mass.
 

eddif

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Before Bosch or any other supplier would entertain a modification to a part (HPFP) which has already been extensively tested and approved by the customer (VW, BMW), a lot of snarly conversations/meetings would be going on between both (all) parties.

Issues on the table would include, but not be limited to, are:

1. Reasons for redesign/change,
2. Who pays for new engineering,
3. Settlement of claims against vendor guarantees,
4. Cost of modifying/testing new unit to meet new specs,
5. How to settle claims for units currently in use,
6. Warranties for new units,
7. Implementation schedules,
8 Etc.

Something like this would not be a friendly exercise as egos and company reputations are involved.

Notice how quietly VW (and their supplier) implemented the chain drive upgrade to the B5.5 BHW engines. No one even knew it was done until 4 years were passed and parts just started showing up.:rolleyes:

Don't hold you breath for an upgraded pump unless these start disintegrating en mass.
aja8888

How about an example of how tough it is. This is what I have gone through with the PD.
1... Low support area for cam bearings. Cantilever / lever forces on end bearings.
2... Customer payed for engineering
3... Nothing came from VW (I have not used black followers)
4... Customer paid for modifications
5... No one speaks out about using the method; up to you.
6... There is no warranty for the failure fix just like there was no warranty for the failure. The solution is through Faith.
7... You have to buy into the fix before failure. (ahead of failure fix)
8... Who has an ego after being beat up over and over.
9... You are your own company to get the fix done.
10.. You better use your breath to get ready to help develop a solution for possible impending disaster.


Just change a few words and you have the HPFP failure. VW has not really paid for a fix for the PD engine or transmission (there are a few cases of help and some black followers, better flywheel, drive gears etc., but it is up to you to have the work done). We generally have to decide when we buy the parts and fix the issues, so the car will not totally self destruct.

eddif
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Two notes: VW may change suppliers for a part, which may cause a change in the part itself (such as coating or hardening in the HPFP) and not change the part number. And if they update the part the change may be as simple as an addition of a suffix or a change in the letter (from B to C, for example). So it's not always easy to tell if the part is different from VW PNs. And VW usually does not provide manufacturer's numbers or who the manufacturer is on parts (flywheels and clutches being one notable exception).

And I see two big differences between cam wear issuse (PD and ALH) and the HPFP: when it occurs and the magnitude of the fallout. Most cam wear issues don't occur until 100K or later, although I know there are exceptions. Many of the HPFP failures have occurred in the first 10K of the car's life. Cam replacement is a $1,200 repair, parts and labor, give or take. HPFP is $10K+ parts and labor.

I could live with an engine that may require a $1,200 repair every 100K. One that may require a $10K+ repair at an unknown interval would be unacceptable.

One similarity is, however, that in both cases (except ALH cams, which had a hardening problem that was corrected, I believe), replacement parts don't promise longer life or failure prevention.
 

eddif

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LOL. Both problems seem to be friction and lubrication driven. At least the problems are in the same area. Hopefully what we learned while working in the oil area is similar to fuel lubrication. It a lot about hydrodynamic films.

Both problems were an increase in the failure rate from the previous engine:
Mostly one year failure in the soft cams (?). (finally small % cost)
First series of BEWs slightly less than later BRMs (?) (larger % cost)
CRs unknown (actually percentage wise we are rushing toward a cure ahead of time, but we do have history to spur us on toward a solution early on).


Right now the cheapest to repair is the ALH, next the BEW, after that accepted BRM repair (if you do a retune the BRM costs more), and finally the CRs show no cheap solution down the road (?).

I still realize I do not own a CR, but a VW TDI site was founded by a non TDI owner. Part of the whole TDI enjoyment is based on saving repair bills. This last repair bill is sure one to work on reducing. The hint of some future help is increasing my interest in a CR. At least I will know what I face up front. I got into the BEW without there being much of a hint of cam failures.

eddif
 

acrossthepond

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Correct since the form, fit, or function did not change. However, usually an identifier would be added to the part number (rev. # or letter suffix - A, B, C) so that the parts with the higher hardness could be tracked going forward.
Maybe thats why your HPFP part number has a 'A' suffix added unlike the European HPFP's part number.
 

HornetHandler

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Before Bosch or any other supplier would entertain a modification to a part (HPFP) which has already been extensively tested and approved by the customer (VW, BMW), a lot of snarly conversations/meetings would be going on between both (all) parties.

Issues on the table would include, but not be limited to, are:

1. Reasons for redesign/change,
2. Who pays for new engineering,
3. Settlement of claims against vendor guarantees,
4. Cost of modifying/testing new unit to meet new specs,
5. How to settle claims for units currently in use,
6. Warranties for new units,
7. Implementation schedules,
8 Etc.

Something like this would not be a friendly exercise as egos and company reputations are involved.

Notice how quietly VW (and their supplier) implemented the chain drive upgrade to the B5.5 BHW engines. No one even knew it was done until 4 years were passed and parts just started showing up.:rolleyes:

Don't hold you breath for an upgraded pump unless these start disintegrating en mass.


From my experience, the driving force behind a design change/deviation/waiver is the determining factor in who pays. If the present design does not meet the Original Equipment Manufacturer's (OEM) specification, it's the OEM's responsibility to come up with a fix and modify the part to make it conform to the specification. If, however, the part works as advertised and VW wants a change, VW pays. Typically the process starts with the customer (VW) carrying out a desktop review to determine if the OEM specification, as written, meets VW's performance specification. If it does, then VW would request that on site inspections and performance testing be carried out by the OEM (usually in the presence of a VW Rep.) to verify that the part is meeting the design and performance specification. If the part subsequently fails any of the inspections or tests, the OEM is on the hook for a fix.
A Performance specification only specifies what parameters and under what conditions the part must perform to. It does not specify what the internal parts are. However, the OEM is still responsible to use the parts and tolerances called up in their design specification and can be audited by the customer to verify they are following their own design.

Regardless, it's always best to let the OEM carry out the investigation; make the recommendations on how to correct or--in the case of a conforming part--enhance its performance, and to take the necessary action to implement. VW should stay at "arms length" in the process to ensure that they are not liable if the fix fails to correct the problem. For example: VW says we think the hardness of a part needs to be changed from ??? to ???. The OEM makes the changes and it doesn't correct the problem. VW is liable.

Note: In the case of a non conforming part, the OEM does not "recommend" a fix to their customers, they take a decision and act on it because it's their design.

Degree of liability for the equipment affected (your car) is something that, if not already addressed in the purchase contract, will be hashed out by the OEM and VW or by their lawyers.
 

aja8888

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I worked in engineering at a plant that supplied OEM parts to a car manufacturer. We did extensive pre-acceptance testing prior to the customer approval. I was in the game, and it's not fun when parts don't work as expected. This HPFP pump issue is going to be a gigantic headache for those involved.
 

ssamalin

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Did I read somewhere that HPFP failure is confined to a specific year/model? I thought somewhere it said something like "all HPFP failures were in 2009/10 Jettas but not in Golfs." Anyone?
 

HornetHandler

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I worked in engineering at a plant that supplied OEM parts to a car manufacturer. We did extensive pre-acceptance testing prior to the customer approval. I was in the game, and it's not fun when parts don't work as expected. This HPFP pump issue is going to be a gigantic headache for those involved.

Agreed:

I'm sure neither the OEM or VW are anxious to start an official investigation and are hoping this thing will eventually go away. I'm also sure that the OEM and VW are going over their tech data package and contract looking for anything that may save them should this issue be forced on them. In-process and final acceptance testing by the customer does not constitute acceptance should the parts be found non-conforming once they're put into use. What will be important is who approved the design for the application. If VW called up a performance specification in their purchase order/contract and the OEM recommended and supplied a part that they said would meet the performance criteria, then it's clear that the OEM is liable. If, however, VW looked at the pumps offered by the OEM and selected the part themselves, then VW is liable. It should be pretty straight forward, but it could get ugly.
 

eddif

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This thread is CR engine HPFP analysis.

Does anyone have any more photos to show what is going on with the pump internals? I would think 40 more photos would be needed to even come close to an analysis.

An analysis of the VW corporation and their relationship with OEM suppliers is interesting. The analysis of insurance companies and their reaction to VW corporate policy and procedure is also interesting.

I vote for nhdoc and his thoughts for a robust pump that would live through a partial mixed fuel experience. I tend to look for an engine that could see 300,000 miles without failure, and not accept a car that is just able to make it to warranty end without failing, (provided there is never anything wrong is done to the car ?). To get this resultant mileages, we are looking at HPFP failures that seem to be preventing some cars from making it to 30,000 miles. No one should abuse their car and expect VW to pay for their mistakes, but there has to be some toughness to the design. What kind of compromise is needed, depends on an analysis of the failing part / parts.

I do not know where the buck stops. I am just a jerk from Mississippi with an aging PD that would like a replacement VW diesel that works. I improved the PD cam bearings to make beyond it's almost 107,000 mile failure.

Anyone have the measurements on the bore diameter in the HPFP casting where the roller assembly fits?

eddif
 

ssamalin

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Maybe it said that 6 cylinder CR don't get HPFP failure.


Did I read somewhere that HPFP failure is confined to a specific year/model? I thought somewhere it said something like "all HPFP failures were in 2009/10 Jettas but not in Golfs." Anyone?
 
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