Need advice on compound turbo build

Mahliloltdi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
Motor- 1.9 pd tdi
What is done as of now
-Rosten Rods
-head studs
-stage 3 Colt cam
-sb stage 3 endurance clutch
-Vnt 17/22
-r783 nozzles
-pd150 intake
-Fmic
-Malone tuning
I drove the car with these mods done to it and liked how it ran, but soon after I got rearended and pulled the motor/trans and put it in a (once was) 2.0l gas wagon... I've seen other compound turbo build threads but can't really seem to find MUCH advice on what turbo to use with the 17/22. Im hoping for 350-400hp if possible. A couple of turbos Ive seen that I THINK may be an alright match is an hy35, or a t3/t04e 50tr with ball bearings.. I plan on using external wategates on both primary and secondary turbo. Also about how much boost do you think I will be pushing to achieve 350-400rpm and at what rpm. I'm not looking to rev the motor over 5500-6000 rpm.. Thanks!
 

Mahliloltdi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
It would be more efficient flowing more air around the small turbo so I don't overspool it. Also I can manually tune it at that point. Correct me if I'm wrong
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
I am not sure how to do it with the vnt style being it's integral to the exhaust manifold. I honestly would recommend asking in a motor head forum where they use this style setup more frequently and have more expertise in the setup.
They would likely be at a loss with the vnt though, not to many outside of the VW crowd that I know of use it.
My brother builds Nissan's and does dual setups with them, but they use non vnt turbos. He wouldn't have a good idea whatsoever about the vnt.

I am curious and will definitely like to read all about the process as you go.
 

Mahliloltdi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
I would have to weld the vanes closed, and mount the wastegate onto the once was egr port and dump it past the small turbo exhaust going into the bigger turbo. I will be asking in a motor head forum, thanks for replying!
 

eddieleephd

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2012
Location
Battle Ground, Wa
TDI
2002 jetta Wagon
I would never weld the veins.
You would be asking for trouble. I don't think that the egr port will release enough gasses, to small.
Adding a waste gate I can see working.
Could sell the 17/22 and do a proper dual turbo with waste gate setup.
 

jtryloff92

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2015
Location
Ohio
TDI
98 Jetta TDI, 91 jetta 1.6NA
To run a Watergate on a vnt, you use the get port on the manifold. But, a better option would be a small single geometry and larger geometry turbo. An hx30 or 35 would be a good large over a k03/k04 hybrid. The smaller turbo has a waste gate on it. But I would also do an external gate.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
The EGR port is plenty big to wastegate any HP turbo you would use.

You're going to need much bigger nozzles for that HP goal

Get a pair of dual pressure gauges (2 gauges, 4 pressures) for monitoring both turbo's turbine input and compressor output pressures. This will keep them alive (if you do the math below and mind what the gauges tell you) and be very helpful in tuning and debug


Do the math on the turbo's compressor maps to insure you get a decent match - same with the exhaust if you can find them.

VNT high pressure and wastegate low pressure works fine, however it can be challenging to tune. Don't expect a tune (software) to magically make it all work. The mechanical setup needs to be close (VNT actuator settings, wastegate settings, right turbos, etc) and the software is icing on the cake. Wastegate/wastegate is easier (fewer variables), however can be more of a compromise if something isn't the way you want it (response, boost levels, etc) so your fuel delivery, and therefore power delivery becomes a function of the turbos, not the tune).

Good luck!
 

Mahliloltdi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
Sorry it took me so long to answer, on vacation for once.. Just ordered the gauges, thanks! Okay you guys are recommending I use the vnt and use an external wastegate? Also why wouldn't I be able to weld/find out a way to hold the veins closed and just tune the turbos manually with external gates?
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Why would you take something that bypasses (more/less) the exhaust gas around the turbine, fix it in place, just to put in something that bypasses the exhaust gas around the turbine in it's place?

You can "lock" the vanes in whatever position you want - that's the easy part.

Maybe you can start with your 17/22, put whatever low pressure turbo you determine to be a good fit on and then watch your gauges. If you need to put an external wastegate on the 17/22, then you can still do that with the EGR port. If you don't need it, all the better.

There's going to be some trial/error involved no matter what. Please keep us informed as to your progress and what you learn.
 

Mahliloltdi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
Okay sounds good, I'll post up some pics of the progress when I get the parts in. Now for the lp turbo..I'm looking at the t3/t04e, 50trim compressor wheel, 76 trim turbine wheel with .63 a/r housing. Would this be a good match? Thanks for all the help so far, this is my first compound build!
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
have you considered the small holset turbos as a LP?

They are great turbos, compact and CHEAP to buy new.
 

Mahliloltdi

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Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
Yes! I was looking into either the hx35 or the hy35. If I had a choice between both I would go with the hy35 due to the smaller housings, less lag. I'm by no means good at figuring out what turbo will work well with the 17/22 lol... Other then that I'd say I'm alright?
 

Mahliloltdi

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Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
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04 TDI WAGON

Here's a pic of the car as it sits, I shaved the door handles, side mouldings, side markers, body lines and vw emblem on tailgate, cut and sucked back bumper in about 2 inches. Up next Im welding up the antenna, roof racks and a bunch of other subtle mods to the body I'll post pics of
 

Mahliloltdi

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Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON

Here's what it was when I first painted it, minus those rims... All that time painting it and redoing the car just to have it on the road a week and have some guy rear end me and total the car��.. all good though, thanks to him I'm taking this car a few steps further
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
2005 Passat daily, a bunch of others in the graveyard out back...
Yes! I was looking into either the hx35 or the hy35. If I had a choice between both I would go with the hy35 due to the smaller housings, less lag. I'm by no means good at figuring out what turbo will work well with the 17/22 lol... Other then that I'd say I'm alright?
i think vtpsd meant holsets that are even smaller than that... something in the HE2XX series.

They commonly can be had with 6 CM^2 housings (other sizes available too) compared to the 9 CM^2 on the HY35s or 12CM^2 on the HX35.

I would never weld the veins.
You would be asking for trouble. I don't think that the egr port will release enough gasses, too small.
Adding a waste gate I can see working.
Could sell the 17/22 and do a proper dual turbo with waste gate setup.
ever forget to tighten the bolts on an EGR block off plate? EGR port on the manifold can bleed plenty of gas away from the turbine. ask me how i know... LOL
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
I'm sorry, I meant to say "have you considered the small turbos for the HP".

Like the he211w and 221. These seem like a perfect fit for what you are doing. They come with an internal gate, are compact, durable, cheap and available.
 

Mahliloltdi

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Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
All good. At first I wanted to stick with what I have, the turbo has not even 100 miles on it, although from what I've seen and what you guys are saying there's better options out there for me. So your saying use the he211w as the hp turbo and the 221 for the lp? Also is there a exhaust manifold that is good quality I can buy instead of making one?
 

vtpsd

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Location
Vermont
TDI
03 jsw TDI, audi 90 AHU swap
I was suggesting to use the he211 or the he221 for the HP turbo and use something bigger for the LP like a hy35 or he351.

I have a nice cast manifold for my he211 (t25) flange. You would have to contact Emil (eurotrashmotorsports) to see if he has more.
 

diffas

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Jun 25, 2008
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Finland
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B5q A4 Avant 2.5TDi+, B7q A4 Avant 3.0TDi
Really not worth use such a vnt for hp. Since you need wastegate anyway you should use wg turbo. Easier to build and will spool even faster than your welded "vnt". If you wanna have vnt as lp turbo it will be pain in the ass to have nice control over it and you need external wg anyway for bypass.

Something like he2x1w and hx35 seems quite good match. Sure there are other options than holset also out there.
 

Mahliloltdi

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Location
Flemington
TDI
04 TDI WAGON
Agreed, so as the hp turbo I'll go with the he211 and for the lp I'll go with he351. I contacted eurotrashmotorsports about the manifold last night, and they didn't get back to me. I'll get the turbos through them too. Is it recommended to have an external gate on the hp turbo or do you think the internal wastegate will be sufficient enough? Thanks for your guys help.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
I'd do the WG HP if I had to do it again, pretty sure my vanes are stuck again.
221 with 5cm housing should spool plenty early, especially with a cam in it. Weld HP internal WG and use external, for better control. on lp, use internal WG if it's there
my build is no good for turbo sizing info, running a stock cam, so much higher pressure ratio for the same mass flow
 
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