She needs moar powah!

Hey all, I've decided to begin doing some upgrades on my '01 Golf 1.9L. I think I've settled on a VNT17/22 for the turbo, and now need advice/suggestions for complementing parts/mods to complete the overall overhaul.

I know I'll need the following:
-turbo (duh)
-new injection nozzles/tips (would probably rather go nozzles so I don't screw them up swapping tips out)
-new fuel pump (right?)
-high/er performance clutch (mine will be due for replacement soon anyways)
-chip and tune

Am I missing anything?

For the above items, what do you suggest I go with knowing that I've settled on the VNT17/22?

Should I also look into a different intake manifold? I'm sure the one I have now is good and clogged, so I'm happy to clean it, but if it would be better to replace it with something bigger or better I'm down for that too.

I'm not far off from needing to replace the timing belt, so I was considering doing the clutch at the same time.

What else do I need to consider here?

What order should I do them in if I want to do it a bit at a time, or should I just wait and do everything all at once?

Car is in pretty decent running order, and has been well maintained, but I occasionally run into overboost problems putting me into limp mode on the highway, which is what has prompted me to want to start this process. I love her and plan on keeping her for a LONG time, so that's why I'm most interested in doing these upgrades. I'll eventually get some body work done on her too with a repaint so that she's finally customized out just the way I want her

Well, you've got a couple options

1) Fix the overboost problems (likely sticky vanes in the stock turbo), clean the intake, get the maintenance up to date and get a tune - leave everything else alone. You will get a significant boost in power, driveability, MPG's for the least investment in time and $$. If you do these things yourself you'll likely spend under $1k and can expect a solid 120 wheel HP/200-250 ft-lbf torque

2) Go down your current planned path with the below suggestions.

As you said, you will need a new clutch and nozzles - go big and do these once. Get a 350 ft-lbf rated clutch and R520's at a minimum. Expect to pay $1k minimum for the above

You don't need a new fuel pump (injection pump) for these modifications.

You can upgrade to a PD150/130 intake manifold, but it's benefits are not proven (it looks "better"). This is another couple hundred dollars.

I'd suggest an EGR Delete and Race Pipe to your modification list as well as some gauges (boost and EGT). A VCDS will be very useful for tuning purposes to get everything dialed in at your altitude.

All in you're looking at ~$4k in just engine mods/maintenance with you doing all the work yourself.

You can expect a solid 150-170 wheel HP/250-300 ft-lbf at the wheels with a well tuned setup like this. There will be a slight sacrifice in low (below 1800) RPM performance with the 17/22, but for most people, this isn't an issue.

The first ~30 HP are cheap, the next 30 are a lot more expensive

people here overlook that after tune and injectors and 17/22 the cheapest mod and must do is a Lift pump do not forget that,, this is when going past 3k rpm you would feel your car is still pulling

The one thing I would change is the 17/22 for a GTB1756VK turbo. You'll thank me in the long run, when you want more power and you can upgrade to a GTB2056VK or GTB2260VK later on down the road.

I know that if the GTB1756VK turbo option was around 7 years ago I would have gone with that turbo.

IMO either of these kits is the way to go.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-gtb-turbo-kit-for-1-9-8v-tdi-engines.html

Or
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/left-hand-drive-lhd-gtb1756vk-budget-turbo-kit.html

Either way you are getting an awesome turbo kit. I plan on upgrading to one of those kit in the future.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

Well, you've got a couple options

1) Fix the overboost problems (likely sticky vanes in the stock turbo), clean the intake, get the maintenance up to date and get a tune - leave everything else alone. You will get a significant boost in power, driveability, MPG's for the least investment in time and $$. If you do these things yourself you'll likely spend under $1k and can expect a solid 120 wheel HP/200-250 ft-lbf torque

Click to expand...

I had initially considered just "restoring" it back to stock power, and I think in many cases that would be just fine for me, but I've read so much about folks getting major fuel economy as well as acceleration increases out of the aforementioned upgrades. With the added performance, that is what has me excited about the engine mods.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

2) Go down your current planned path with the below suggestions.

As you said, you will need a new clutch and nozzles - go big and do these once. Get a 350 ft-lbf rated clutch and R520's at a minimum. Expect to pay $1k minimum for the above

Click to expand...

No surprises here, I was figuring $500-700 for the clutch by itself. Other than the R520 nozzles, is there anything ELSE I should be considering in the way of injection nozzles? Any particular reason that you recommend those, specifically?

Fix_Until_Broke said:

You don't need a new fuel pump (injection pump) for these modifications.

Click to expand...

Ah yes, I meant to say lift pump. Just couldn't think of the term when I was writing my OP.

Fix_Until_Broke said:

You can upgrade to a PD150/130 intake manifold, but it's benefits are not proven (it looks "better"). This is another couple hundred dollars.

I'd suggest an EGR Delete and Race Pipe to your modification list as well as some gauges (boost and EGT). A VCDS will be very useful for tuning purposes to get everything dialed in at your altitude.

Click to expand...

Forgive my naivete, but why do the EGR delete? Just to help things run cleaner from here on out? Is there any sort of increase in performance, or is there another benefit? As far as the race pipe, how difficult is that typically to do? I did a full exhaust system replacement on my old Toyota 22RE pickup engine and that was doable in an afternoon with the right tools, am I looking at about the same for this?

Fix_Until_Broke said:

All in you're looking at ~$4k in just engine mods/maintenance with you doing all the work yourself.

You can expect a solid 150-170 wheel HP/250-300 ft-lbf at the wheels with a well tuned setup like this. There will be a slight sacrifice in low (below 1800) RPM performance with the 17/22, but for most people, this isn't an issue.

The first ~30 HP are cheap, the next 30 are a lot more expensive

Click to expand...

For $4k, knowing I'm basically putting together exactly what I want in my vehicle, I'm very comfortable with that investment (shoot, I hope to put another 200k miles on it and hit that 1/2 million mile club).

MAXRPM said:

people here overlook that after tune and injectors and 17/22 the cheapest mod and must do is a Lift pump do not forget that,, this is when going past 3k rpm you would feel your car is still pulling

Click to expand...

Is there a go-to lift pump that you'd recommend, or is pretty much anything good to go?

3L3M3NT said:

The one thing I would change is the 17/22 for a GTB1756VK turbo. You'll thank me in the long run, when you want more power and you can upgrade to a GTB2056VK or GTB2260VK later on down the road.

I know that if the GTB1756VK turbo option was around 7 years ago I would have gone with that turbo.

IMO either of these kits is the way to go.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-gtb-turbo-kit-for-1-9-8v-tdi-engines.html

Or
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/left-hand-drive-lhd-gtb1756vk-budget-turbo-kit.html

Either way you are getting an awesome turbo kit. I plan on upgrading to one of those kit in the future.

Click to expand...

Why would you opt for that turbo over the 17/22? I can appreciate the $$ savings, but what am I getting/losing with that instead of the 17/22?

The 17/22 is a great turbo (I ran one for years) but it has its limits. It can be slow to spool in a very few situations (asking for boost at very low revs in a high gear, for example), its hot side has limitations if you want to run big fuel, and it can carbon up if you have an aggressive tune and drive it gently for a long time. Otherwise it's practically bulletproof, drives very much like stock when set up and tuned properly, and you can keep your stock exhaust and intercooler piping for now, although a larger ones will help in the long run.

I have a 1756 in my garage that I never installed, mostly because I didn't want to have yet another exhaust made, and I felt that to really get the most out of it I should go to a front mount intercooler, which can be complex and expensive on our cars. I also wasn't happy with how the vacuum actuator was set up on mine and wanted to remake the bracket before I installed it.

Long story short, I think the big difference between a 17/22 and 1756 setup is the latter is further from stock, and requires some accommodations and attention. But reports are that the 1756 drives better and makes more absolute power. Of course if you're going to take it to the max you'll need new connecting rods and to replace your head bolts with studs.

Long story, short...is that the 17/22 is close to 10 year old technology compared to the gtb1756vk is ~ 5 years old and a lot more technology/engineering put into it.

Good to know, my research must have steered me in the wrong direction then

If I were to switch gears to the gtb1756vk, what part of my plan/s would I need to re-work to accommodate the turbo?

3L3M3NT said:

Long story, short...is that the 17/22 is close to 10 year old technology compared to the gtb1756vk is ~ 5 years old and a lot more technology/engineering put into it.

Click to expand...

This is true, but I don't know how much actual impact it has on a moderately tuned car with stock internals. A 17/22 with a 24-26 PSI tune, 11mm pump, reasonable fueling, and good breathing (PD150 components) is a great setup. I made 185/315 with mine for 120K miles, averaging 44 MPG.

Garrett is constantly upgrading internals in their turbos. A VNT-15 you buy today is significantly improved compared to one from 2000. Same with the 17/22. So I'm not sure the technology is that much different. And aren't there even newer, more sophisticated turbos out there?

Indigo, do you have anything in the way of an EGR delete kit with a race pipe that has a fitting for a boost guage?

cactussam85 said:

Good to know, my research must have steered me in the wrong direction then

If I were to switch gears to the gtb1756vk, what part of my plan/s would I need to re-work to accommodate the turbo?

Click to expand...

For being budget minded this kit from Darkside is the way to go.
Turbo kit.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/left-hand-drive-lhd-gtb1756vk-budget-turbo-kit.html

Upgraded SMIC.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/upgraded-side-mount-intercooler-kit-for-1-9-tdi-pd130-asz-and-us-spec-bew-pd100-engine.html

Or do it once and do it right with a FMIC.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-upgraded-front-mount-intercooler-kit-fmic-for-1-9-tdi-ve-90-110.html

You might as well go straight to a 4 BAR MAP Sensor. Just make sure you let the company/person tuning your car know you have a 4 BAR MAP Sensor or you'll have issues.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/vw-4-bar-map-manifold-pressure-sensor-03k-906-051.html

A PD150 intake kit and PD150 intake manifold will help with the breathing mods.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/modified-pd150-inlet-pipe-for-lhd-budget-turbo-kit.html

Here is the thread that Darkside (ryanp) has on here for everything you'll need to improve the performance of your car.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=373687

@element: where would the front mounted intercooler go? under the radiator? (never looked into upgrading the intercooler before...)

IndigoBlueWagon said:

This is true, but I don't know how much actual impact it has on a moderately tuned car with stock internals. A 17/22 with a 24-26 PSI tune, 11mm pump, reasonable fueling, and good breathing (PD150 components) is a great setup. I made 185/315 with mine for 120K miles, averaging 44 MPG.

Garrett is constantly upgrading internals in their turbos. A VNT-15 you buy today is significantly improved compared to one from 2000. Same with the 17/22. So I'm not sure the technology is that much different. And aren't there even newer, more sophisticated turbos out there?

Click to expand...

True they are up to gtd series turbo.
http://turbo.honeywell.com/whats-new-in-turbo/video/latest-generation-vnt-for-eu6-and-beyond/

From the video I'd love to get my hands on a gtd17 or gtd20, but the supporting manifolds/dp/IC piping just aren't there. So for budget reasons the best turbo to go with at the moment is a gtb1756vk, because you can get great response from it a the beginning of your build and it'll provide power into the 200+ whp range and do it without having to push it as much as the 17/22. Plus if you want even more power you can switch out the gtb1756 for a gtb2260 turbo down the road fairly easy, since the flanges are relatively in the same spot.

Some good reading on the turbos that work well with our TDIs.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=300010

The last page that has a lot of good info on the latest gen turbos. I actually "stole" the video link from one of the posts.

cactussam85 said:

@element: where would the front mounted intercooler go? under the radiator? (never looked into upgrading the intercooler before...)

Click to expand...

The FMIC mounts to your crash bar. The one I suggested is a same side in/out, so it utilizes your factory Intercooler routing essentially, so it won't interfere with anything.

Check out the pictures in this pop out window to get a better idea.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/productimage.php?product_id=435

Or this is the FMIC I have on my Jetta to give you an even better idea.
http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/Front_Mounting_Intercooler_for_the_Mk4_VW_Golf_PD130--product--714.html

The closest thing I have to a build thread is this.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=265112

Obviously mines a PD and yours is an ALH, but the supporting mods are essentially the same.

OP, you really need to identify what kind of numbers you feel you "need." At some point on the performance curve it's kind of nutty to be concerned with fuel economy as you're going to pretty much need to be driving that power to actually justify the expenses.

I really encourage people to track down folks with different performance mods to get a firsthand feel for what they are.

Your first 30 or so hp and 75 ft-lbs of torque are going to be your cheapest, most cost-effective realizations. Doing this right, and there's not all that much that requires "right," won't be more than $1k. From this point on you're pretty much going to be taking on performance gains at about $1k per shot, first perhaps 20hp (not sure how much torque) and then less and less for the same amount.

AND... you're wanting body work and a custom paint job. Unless you're soaked in disposable income this is all going to add up significantly. Mind you, I'm in a similar boat except that I've capped my "performance" mods to the first tier (biggest bang for the buck)*; still undecided whether I want to shell out the big $$ for body work (car would be nearly mint condition if not for undetected rust finding its way from behind the fender wells and into the rockers!).

* My requirements, however, were based on optimizing for fuel mileage and to have reserve power on tap: two cars to configure thusly, so I am a bit tighter with the budget on a per-car basis.

UhOh's giving good advice. Find a get-together or a guru in your area and see if you can drive/ride in some cars with varying levels of mods. This will give you an idea of how the dollar/value equation works out for you.

I loved my wagon when it made 185/315. The car was an absolute blast on the track: it's a lot of fun to walk away from cars that should be much faster, especially in a diesel wagon.

However, I really couldn't use the power on the street. You couldn't floor it until 3rd gear without causing significant wheelspin, and a run in 4th and 5th to clean out the turbo usually resulted in speeds well in excess of 100 MPH. Not exactly wise if you value your license.

I'm now running a stock turbo with the strongest tune it can withstand (19.5 PSI), slightly larger nozzles, 11mm pump, lift pump, and a bunch of breathing mods. The car is a blast to drive, has more than enough power on the street, and delivers 47-49 MPG regularly without any attempts at achieving fuel economy. It's making about 140/260 at the wheels on a conservative dyno, and if I had to go out and buy them now the mods probably cost over $5K. I could get more power for less money, but not with the driveability and refinement this setup offers. I've also paid attention to the rest of the car with new dampers, rear bar, subframe brace and a strut tower brace, and I have several sets of wheels with tires of varying stickiness. And still it cost a lot less than a stock Porsche.

UhOh said:

OP, you really need to identify what kind of numbers you feel you "need." At some point on the performance curve it's kind of nutty to be concerned with fuel economy as you're going to pretty much need to be driving that power to actually justify the expenses.

I really encourage people to track down folks with different performance mods to get a firsthand feel for what they are.

Your first 30 or so hp and 75 ft-lbs of torque are going to be your cheapest, most cost-effective realizations. Doing this right, and there's not all that much that requires "right," won't be more than $1k. From this point on you're pretty much going to be taking on performance gains at about $1k per shot, first perhaps 20hp (not sure how much torque) and then less and less for the same amount.

AND... you're wanting body work and a custom paint job. Unless you're soaked in disposable income this is all going to add up significantly. Mind you, I'm in a similar boat except that I've capped my "performance" mods to the first tier (biggest bang for the buck)*; still undecided whether I want to shell out the big $$ for body work (car would be nearly mint condition if not for undetected rust finding its way from behind the fender wells and into the rockers!).

* My requirements, however, were based on optimizing for fuel mileage and to have reserve power on tap: two cars to configure thusly, so I am a bit tighter with the budget on a per-car basis.

Click to expand...

You've given me a lot to think about here. I'm definitely looking for drivability and fuel economy increases with the extra power "on tap" as you put it. Definitely nice to know that it's there when you need it.

In that case, I may be looking more seriously at the package from Darkside Development. Maybe I don't need to get so crazy after all, lol.

I guess, now that I think about it, I'd be pretty happy with something that just accelerated to highway speeds quickly and got good uphill acceleration as well. I occasionally do some mountain driving to visit family or to go snowboarding in the winter, and I REALLY want to be able to make the hill climbs without popping into limp mode all the time.

Just ordered an EGR and exhaust cooler delete kit, so I'll do a thorough chemical cleaning at the same time and keep my fingers crossed that it works as a short term solution until I can save up the money for the new turbo kit

IndigoBlueWagon said:

UhOh's giving good advice. Find a get-together or a guru in your area and see if you can drive/ride in some cars with varying levels of mods. This will give you an idea of how the dollar/value equation works out for you.

I loved my wagon when it made 185/315. The car was an absolute blast on the track: it's a lot of fun to walk away from cars that should be much faster, especially in a diesel wagon.

However, I really couldn't use the power on the street. You couldn't floor it until 3rd gear without causing significant wheelspin, and a run in 4th and 5th to clean out the turbo usually resulted in speeds well in excess of 100 MPH. Not exactly wise if you value your license.

I'm now running a stock turbo with the strongest tune it can withstand (19.5 PSI), slightly larger nozzles, 11mm pump, lift pump, and a bunch of breathing mods. The car is a blast to drive, has more than enough power on the street, and delivers 47-49 MPG regularly without any attempts at achieving fuel economy. It's making about 140/260 at the wheels on a conservative dyno, and if I had to go out and buy them now the mods probably cost over $5K. I could get more power for less money, but not with the driveability and refinement this setup offers. I've also paid attention to the rest of the car with new dampers, rear bar, subframe brace and a strut tower brace, and I have several sets of wheels with tires of varying stickiness. And still it cost a lot less than a stock Porsche.

Click to expand...

Great info. I've been in the same boat as all the other newbies, trying to figure out what I should put money into. Sounds like you have what I want... a well-rounded, do everything car.

ksmoker said:

Great info. I've been in the same boat as all the other newbies, trying to figure out what I should put money into. Sounds like you have what I want... a well-rounded, do everything car.

Click to expand...

Although I don't share the exact same viewpoints with IBW on which car is better, wagon or hatch, or on the ability of various clutches, I highly respect his knowledge and opinions: he's been a huge influence in my decision to go with what I have (didn't buy performance parts through him/them, but do buy a lot of parts from him/them).

What I and others provide here is pretty subjective. It really comes down to the individual being able to clearly identify wants/needs/requirements. I've been in the development process and I know that unless you get your requirements well established up-front you're going to struggle to be happy with the end-result (or the initial result, as you're likely going to be re-doing stuff- $$ [and time!]).

I strive to get to the point of ensuring that I want what I have. With my car, after I've given it a new life, I look around and I KNOW that the car that I want is the one I'm driving (yeah, the fenders and rockers could be stand to be fixed, but I don't see any of that when I'm driving)