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Old February 17th, 2017, 07:21   #1
TheRachermobile
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Unhappy No start after timing belt replacement

Hello,
I have a 2001 VW Golf TDI, with 190,000 miles on it. about 3 weeks ago, my car apparently skipped time on the injection pump, and my car lost power (did not shut down, I had to turn the key off after I pulled over). I had it towed to a shop that said they knew TDIs... bought a timing belt kit from KermaTDI, with a water pump and the shop said they would do the work for me. Apparently they couldnt get the timing belt to "fit" correctly... or maybe couldnt time it correctly I am not sure... so they took initiative and bought a different belt, the T321 is what came with my KermaTDI kit, and they bought and placed a T301 belt. I was not very happy about it because they did it without even telling me... and I can't find anywhere that says the T321 would not work with my car. Anyway, when I went and picked it up... it wouldnt start. Brand New battery, yes glow plugs were a little old, but I always started fine. Even cold starts, it cranked right over and off I was. It took them a while but they got it running. I checked the glow plugs, found one that was way off, replaced it. still had problems starting... every day since I picked it back up. Progressively getting worse and harder to start. I bought the other 3 glow plugs, replaced those. It was pretty cold the other morning, and the (new) battery actually died while I was trying to get it to start, and it never would start. Charged the battery, still no start. At first, after I picked it up from the shop it had a whole bunch of white smoke while cranking it over, now it cranks, but no smoke, and no start. Ideas? I am hesitant to take it back to the shop because I didnt like how they handled the timing belt replacement, but I think if they messed something up setting the time, they should correct it. Sorry for the novel.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 07:45   #2
KLXD
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Sounds like late timing. Been running long enough to figger airs fully purged.

Did they use VCDS to time it?

The fact that they couldn't get the belt on leads me to believe they didn't unbolt the cam sprocket.

I'm assuming the cam didn't loose timing in the original incident which may not be a good assumption based on the apparent knowledge of the mechanic.

I'd get it to someone on the list at the top of this Forum and at least remove the cam to check the followers for damage.
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Last edited by KLXD; February 17th, 2017 at 07:52.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 07:54   #3
TheRachermobile
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I believe they used VCDS... but I didn't watch them so I cant guarantee it. They work on imports, mostly Audis. I'm wondering if the timing belt for an Audi is much different than my Golf and they didn't do it correctly?

I will say- the car ran, I drove it a good distance, the problem is starting it, but not necessarily driving it. Obviously it could be the starter... but I am a little concerned because I had no starter trouble before the shop, perfect starts every time. And I heard no signs of the starter going bad or getting worn until the day I went to pick it up. Would late timing affect starting and running? or just starting?
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Old February 17th, 2017, 08:09   #4
belome
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I know I'm a pessimist but your post just sounds scary to me. I hope they did a darn good job of determining if the cam and crank ever lost time. Sadly, if a valve did kiss a piston it will run for awhile and eventually the valve head will drop off with catastrophic results.

I know it is a long drive, but there is a guru in Cedar Springs that could fix you right up.

He is in the trusted list:

Kirk Blackmore "r90sKirk"
Rockford, Michigan
rockfordtdiguy@gmail.com
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Old February 17th, 2017, 08:14   #5
TheRachermobile
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ugh. I know... me too.... I asked them multiple times if they were sure the cam and crank didn't lose time. (seeing how the belt kit replacement and labor cost me $1200... I didn't want to be doing it for nothing) I drive past Cedar Springs a lot actually, heading down to Grand Rapids, so I will contact him. Thanks!
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Old February 17th, 2017, 08:28   #6
Tdijarhead
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I agree this is a scary story. My first thought was they didn't remove the cam sprocket also or at least loosen it. On an ALH the belt fits tight but they shouldn't have had any problem getting it on. Not like a BEW where you almost have to slide the cam sprocket off. That belt from Kerma should have fit right on there. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that was the first TDI they've ever done. Definitely take it to some one who knows what they are doing.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 09:05   #7
TheRachermobile
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Maybe they could get the belt on.... but couldn't get it to time or align correctly? Has anyone heard of that before with a 2001 golf tdi?
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Old February 17th, 2017, 09:21   #8
KLXD
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Nope. It is only difficult to install if you don't remove the cam sprocket which is what makes me suspicious of their methods. Once it's in place the timing is determined by tooth spacing.

By using a longer belt they had to rotate the tensioner to an abnormal position. I don't know if that's ok without trying it. I can see where you might not be able to get enough tension depending on where the stud is located.
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Saying no to gas for 25 years:

Current: 02 Jetta, Auto; 98 Jetta, 5 Spd; 98 Dodge, 5 Spd, SB, 4x4; 84 Grand Wagoneer with Nissan SD33T, NV4500, Dana 300, Reverse Cut Dana 44, Dana 60

The Black Sheep (Only gasser): 85 CJ, 4.2 w/4.0 Head and Mopar FI.

Past: 85 Mitsubishi PU, 4D55T; 81 Rabbit, 1.6; 80 Dasher, 1.5; 79 Rabbit, 1.5

Last edited by KLXD; February 17th, 2017 at 09:25.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 09:29   #9
KLXD
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When it lost power you stopped driving. Did the shop drive it before doing the belt? Did they verify that injection timing was off but the cam wasn't?

Maybe you never had a timing problem and it was the pump that failed in the beginning?
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Saying no to gas for 25 years:

Current: 02 Jetta, Auto; 98 Jetta, 5 Spd; 98 Dodge, 5 Spd, SB, 4x4; 84 Grand Wagoneer with Nissan SD33T, NV4500, Dana 300, Reverse Cut Dana 44, Dana 60

The Black Sheep (Only gasser): 85 CJ, 4.2 w/4.0 Head and Mopar FI.

Past: 85 Mitsubishi PU, 4D55T; 81 Rabbit, 1.6; 80 Dasher, 1.5; 79 Rabbit, 1.5
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Old February 17th, 2017, 09:36   #10
AndyBees
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Yep! Scary Story ...

And, there is no way anyone can convince me that the TB skipped a tooth on the IP sprocket. The IP is the easiest item in the path of the TB to rotate, excluding rollers/idlers. If the TB in fact jumped a tooth, it would have been at the crankshaft sprocket where the greatest amount of stress and least number of teeth making contact.

White Smoke is a timing issue. If it wasn't doing white smoke on start-ups prior to the incident, then it is not an air issue either (no partially plugged EGR or Intake).

You need to find a guru ... Also, they need to give you the TB that you purchased and not charge you for the one they bought and installed.... just saying!
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Old February 17th, 2017, 10:16   #11
TheRachermobile
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The water pump was bad, the bearing failed, which I heard right before it lost power. I had it towed to the shop that did the belt replacement, and I don't think they drove it first, but they did take a while to diagnose it. There was a partial plugged EGR valve, that they cleaned up when they had it.
When I picked it up 2 weeks ago, I told them how I felt about the belt etc. They didn't charge me for the belt they bought, but they held onto the belt I bought... and were going to call a tech at KermaTDI to talk about why they couldn't use it. Karma said they would refund it to me, but that they believe it should have worked fine. Apparently they couldn't get ahold of the tech with Kerma..
If it were a starter issue... is there a way to fidget or trick it into starting, so I can at least get it down to the guru in Cedar Springs? I am supposed to be driving to Grand Rapids anyway tonight... but can't get the car to start even to get it to the shop for them to have another look.
Could I have done something to mess it up when I changed the glow plugs? Its hard for me to think that because I changed them because I was having this problem... I wanted to get that out of the way, and it is still there. It does turn over, just doesn't fire. It sounded like it was going to a few times, and then wouldn't. By then, the battery died. And now I am getting worried that I ruined the starter anyway at this point :/
Thanks for all the replies. Even if you are all bearers of bad news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBees View Post
Yep! Scary Story ...
And, there is no way anyone can convince me that the TB skipped a tooth on the IP sprocket. The IP is the easiest item in the path of the TB to rotate, excluding rollers/idlers. If the TB in fact jumped a tooth, it would have been at the crankshaft sprocket where the greatest amount of stress and least number of teeth making contact.
White Smoke is a timing issue. If it wasn't doing white smoke on start-ups prior to the incident, then it is not an air issue either (no partially plugged EGR or Intake).
You need to find a guru ... Also, they need to give you the TB that you purchased and not charge you for the one they bought and installed.... just saying!
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Old February 17th, 2017, 10:26   #12
pdq import repair
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I have seen the crank pulley wear and strip out at the key and alter timing on the early models like this. Did they remove and inspect the pulley? I seriously doubt they pulled it off, as you don't normally unless you do a seal, but the early ones I always do. Also good to confirm TDC on the flywheel rather than trust the locking tool outright when setting cam timing.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 10:55   #13
KLXD
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If the water pump failed and caused the pump to loose timing then I agree with Andy and the cam prolly went out too.

You may have cratered lifters and/or bent valves causing low compression/hard starting.

Again, did they check the cam/lifters for damaged? These are INTERFERENCE engines. If the cam goes out of time more than a few degrees the valves hit.
__________________
Saying no to gas for 25 years:

Current: 02 Jetta, Auto; 98 Jetta, 5 Spd; 98 Dodge, 5 Spd, SB, 4x4; 84 Grand Wagoneer with Nissan SD33T, NV4500, Dana 300, Reverse Cut Dana 44, Dana 60

The Black Sheep (Only gasser): 85 CJ, 4.2 w/4.0 Head and Mopar FI.

Past: 85 Mitsubishi PU, 4D55T; 81 Rabbit, 1.6; 80 Dasher, 1.5; 79 Rabbit, 1.5
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Old February 17th, 2017, 11:31   #14
TheRachermobile
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Yes, as far as they told me, they inspected for damage to the cam/lifters.

They kit I purchased that they used had this in it
Timing Belt 038 109 119 M
Serp belt 038 903 137J
Tensioner 038 109 243N
Camseal 038 103 085C
Large roller 038 109 244M
Small top roller 058 109 244
Small roller bottom 038 109 244E
Waterpump 038 121 011A


Additionally the kit includes 1.5L of VW Longlife G12 Coolant and the deluxe bolt kit:

1x Large roller bolt N 905 969 02
1x Engine bracket bolt long N 103 280 01
2x Engine mount to body N 105 167 02
2x Engine bracket bolt N 102 096 05
2x Engine bracket bolt short N 907 124 01
3x Injection pump bolts N 903 285 04
3x Valve cover bolts N 101 725 01
3x Sound Dampener screws N 907 750 01
4x Vibration dampener bolts N 903 396 03
1x EGR valve o-ring seal N 905 216 01
1x Vacuum Pump Seal 038 145 345

That is 3 pulleys right? Or is the crank pulley different and not included in this kit?
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Old February 17th, 2017, 11:56   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRachermobile View Post
................................. a shop that said they knew TDIs...................................
They lied to you. Proceed with caution.
The fact that they used a different belt is very suspicious. I can not see Kerma sending the wrong part for that model car, did they use a longer one?
I'd be shocked if they got it timed correct, likely why it won't start (unless the fuel system was open and now has air in it).
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