NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation
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tadawson
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No, after 4 years, they want to see *more* failed parts, in case something different shows up, than what they have already seen.
- Tim
- Tim
gonesurfing
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Having followed the HPFP situation from the start, and having worked in the auto manufacturing industry (but not for VW), here is my speculation to the situation.
The early failures probably received a lot of attention from both Bosch and VW sides. The design was obviously changed several times in 2008/2009/2010. When that didn't drastically cut down the failure rate the next step was to gather as much data from failures as possible. Was there contamination with RUG in failures? Sure! Ok, well maybe those failures where there wasn't immediately contamination evident were misfiled at some point earlier and it took a while to manifest. Let's eliminate that variable by installing the fuel guards.
Now that the fuel guards are in, and the failure rate isn't where it needs to be, there is probably renewed interest in what other causes can be identified and eliminated.
I would guess VW is pushing Bosch to fix this, and the RUG contamination argument isn't going to fly from now.
The early failures probably received a lot of attention from both Bosch and VW sides. The design was obviously changed several times in 2008/2009/2010. When that didn't drastically cut down the failure rate the next step was to gather as much data from failures as possible. Was there contamination with RUG in failures? Sure! Ok, well maybe those failures where there wasn't immediately contamination evident were misfiled at some point earlier and it took a while to manifest. Let's eliminate that variable by installing the fuel guards.
Now that the fuel guards are in, and the failure rate isn't where it needs to be, there is probably renewed interest in what other causes can be identified and eliminated.
I would guess VW is pushing Bosch to fix this, and the RUG contamination argument isn't going to fly from now.
Mrrogers1
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Makes good sense.
tdiatlast
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I agree that what gonesurfing stated makes sense.
However, what makes sense and what VWoA does in response to design issues don't always agree.
However, what makes sense and what VWoA does in response to design issues don't always agree.
tdi90hp
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Pushing BOSCH???? Gone Surfing they better have PUSHED hard for the past few years and brought in all the changes needed for the new E288 engine or they will be in another 5-6 year hole. I hope pushing is over a long time ago. TDIs in a Golf 7 land late summer in Toronto and maybe earlier. Better not still be pushing cause cars are probably at the Train yard in Mexico ready to be shipped with that lovely TDI motor in it!
kjclow
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The cars may be in port waiting to load and sail north. Most of the VWs are shipped by water not rail.
crazyj
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Most often this is due to the engineering / accountant (and marketing) interface. Engineers only have so much say; however, I believe good companies trust their engineers more than their accountants.
chocolater2
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Volkswagen just needs to go back to their original engines -- ALH or pump duse. The less moving parts, the less problems. The longer the line of cars (mustang, civic, corolla and camry) the better.
tditom
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Theoretically, but not probable. Higher pressures are needed to meet the emission requirements in place today. The HPFP and SCR are the most cost effective means of getting there.
nedcall
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2012tdi sportwagen
33,600 miles with no problems at all. Los Angeles to Lake Havasu, AZ Friday afternoon, 300 miles in 110 degree weather. Parked for 2 hours, drove to market. Glow plug light came on, engine stumbled, died, no restart. Walked to 2nd home. Next day - no start, called VW, towed 150 miles to Las Vegas, rented car in AZ for weekend and drive back to LA. LV VW dealer says "out of fuel". Reply "impossible, only drove 300 miles". On Monday, dealer calls to say it may take a week, it is the fuel pump and he is working on getting coverage for work from VW. Reply "still under warranty, why wouldn't VW cover". No answer. On Wednesday calls to say have to order parts, metal particles in the fuel system, may be longer.(Final count 11 days from failure to repair). With additional days on rental, out of state drop of fee, hotel room, etc. about $800 in outlay (not counting time to travel to Las Vegas to pick up car and back to LA). VW reimbursed $500 travel interruption. No mention of bad fuel from dealer, so VW must realize now that this is not the cause of the problem. Point is that the problem is not solved as of 2012 model.
33,600 miles with no problems at all. Los Angeles to Lake Havasu, AZ Friday afternoon, 300 miles in 110 degree weather. Parked for 2 hours, drove to market. Glow plug light came on, engine stumbled, died, no restart. Walked to 2nd home. Next day - no start, called VW, towed 150 miles to Las Vegas, rented car in AZ for weekend and drive back to LA. LV VW dealer says "out of fuel". Reply "impossible, only drove 300 miles". On Monday, dealer calls to say it may take a week, it is the fuel pump and he is working on getting coverage for work from VW. Reply "still under warranty, why wouldn't VW cover". No answer. On Wednesday calls to say have to order parts, metal particles in the fuel system, may be longer.(Final count 11 days from failure to repair). With additional days on rental, out of state drop of fee, hotel room, etc. about $800 in outlay (not counting time to travel to Las Vegas to pick up car and back to LA). VW reimbursed $500 travel interruption. No mention of bad fuel from dealer, so VW must realize now that this is not the cause of the problem. Point is that the problem is not solved as of 2012 model.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
This won't happen. The older-design engines cannot conform to post-2007 emission standards. Neither P-D nor rotary-pump engines allow sufficient control of the injection and combustion process, and neither one is capable of doing what is needed to regenerate the DPF and NOx catalysts. Operating without the DPF and NOx catalysts is not even remotely capable of complying with today's emission standards - not even close - so that is a non-starter.
bluey
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From what I have been reading on this issue from before I bought a TDI, fuel quality, specifically lubricity, is a (?the) problem in the USA. Bosch is fully aware of this, according to the Bosch presentation "Diesel Fuel Lubricity Requirements for Light Duty Fuel Injection Equipment", CARB Fuels Workshop Sacramento, CA Feb. 20, 2003.
Specifically, they say "All high-pressure fuel-lubricated injection systems are exceedingly lubricity-sensitive and require clean fuels (no free water and/or contamination)".
So the up front problem becomes a marketing one for VWoA. How do we sell a TDI and warn people about fuel-related risks? Answer - say nothing. Gets interesting when an investigation starts hunting for the paper trail of who decided what and why. Will the NHTSA get there???
The secondary problem is about downstream engine damage in the event of HPFP failure, which results in injector clogging. Someone here engineered an outboard filter for the HPFP. I thought Bosch would be able to put a sintered metal filter within the body of the HPFP. But I guess the cost of a recall to do that could be bigger than the cost of replacing failed parts in TDIs with HPFP failure.
I'm sure the engineers can fix it. Management decisions are the probably the problem.
Specifically, they say "All high-pressure fuel-lubricated injection systems are exceedingly lubricity-sensitive and require clean fuels (no free water and/or contamination)".
So the up front problem becomes a marketing one for VWoA. How do we sell a TDI and warn people about fuel-related risks? Answer - say nothing. Gets interesting when an investigation starts hunting for the paper trail of who decided what and why. Will the NHTSA get there???
The secondary problem is about downstream engine damage in the event of HPFP failure, which results in injector clogging. Someone here engineered an outboard filter for the HPFP. I thought Bosch would be able to put a sintered metal filter within the body of the HPFP. But I guess the cost of a recall to do that could be bigger than the cost of replacing failed parts in TDIs with HPFP failure.
I'm sure the engineers can fix it. Management decisions are the probably the problem.
Softrockrenegade
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Bluey, is Australia also having problems with HPFP failure?
Terrific-In-Tahoma
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TDI High Pressure Fuel Pump Failures -
Review the Documents from GM and the Report from the Legal Beagles regarding their(GM's headache of the Ignition Key fisasco), and you may have a different thought about the reluctance to issue a Vehicle recall for one problem or another.
While you are correct that the engineers only have so much pull within the organization, I don't see the Accounting team having as much fun as the engineers do playing Simon Says with their pencils and spreadsheets as the folks (guys and girls) in the white lab coats do!
See this video on youtube http://youtu.be/8k8jilUMw64?list=UUQCH4215rOHvChnhjyPJxSw for what I am referring to. The Title is "Light Game".
While I respect your opinion, I have to correct the train of thought, Since it all comes down to Dollars and Cents, the Accountants have the upper hand.
Review the Documents from GM and the Report from the Legal Beagles regarding their(GM's headache of the Ignition Key fisasco), and you may have a different thought about the reluctance to issue a Vehicle recall for one problem or another.
While you are correct that the engineers only have so much pull within the organization, I don't see the Accounting team having as much fun as the engineers do playing Simon Says with their pencils and spreadsheets as the folks (guys and girls) in the white lab coats do!
See this video on youtube http://youtu.be/8k8jilUMw64?list=UUQCH4215rOHvChnhjyPJxSw for what I am referring to. The Title is "Light Game".
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kjclow
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Have you reported the failure on the specific thread on here and to the NHTSA?
bluey
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I have not heard of any yet. We have apparently better quality fuel here.
Bosch data (the presentation I referred earlier) suggests minimum lubricity of 450µm wear scar (HFRR) - labelled "borderline" - and 380µm as "good". (Graph - slide 12)
Typical diesel fuel here has lubricity of 400µm, with standard minimum of 460µm. This compares to USA minimum of 520µm.
Bosch also makes a V6 Mercedes HPFP of steel, compared to the aluminum alloy for VW. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3748944&postcount=1485
Easiest way to fix lubricity appears to be to add 2% biodiesel. Surely would be a simple "green" recommendation and fix for VWoA to line up a fuel company to produce/distribute this and recommend it for all TDIs.
Terrific-In-Tahoma
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While that is one solution, I don't believe it will absolutely solve the problem. The reason I suggest the 2% Bio won't do it, because certain states already have 2-5 % Bio blended in the fuel already, yet those states are seeing failures as well.
I would concur with the original thought, since it is a lubrication issue , after the changeover to Ultra-Low-Sulfur-Fuel , but for us Cannucks the WVoC say too bad, so sad, and walk away from any warranty claims.
Yet, you cannot get a stainless steel fuel pump from Bosch if it does fail, and for this reason I am staying away from anything that is 2008-2014 vintage.
Terrific-In-Tahoma
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VWoA have not confirmed this. It might be 40% are due to misfueling, 40% are to lubricity/contamination, 20% are unknown (and this is the roulette wheel, you (hapless consumer we all are) don't get to choose how to mitigate against this failure.
So far , nobody with a 2micron fix has had a 2nd failure, and admitted it.
If, by having congress mandate the 'clean' ULSD blend of fuel, is too 'dry' for the HighPressure Fuel Pump, what happens if the sulfur gets replaced with something else that restores the lubricity.
Does VWoA have the same failure rate where the states have 5-7% Bio Diesel blends at the pump? This Answer I am not privy to, but it appears plausable that the pump chrome deposits wearing on the relatively soft steel , when the flakes get into the injectors thats when it grenades.
> Luke <
Veteran Member
And in my case, as noted by my "signature block" below, mine failed, but the dealership covered everything, including a loaner for the week & a half to affect the full replacement. Anything fuel related was replaced. I should alert you the the service manager, at the time, knew full well that I had been using only Chevron fuel, and had kept every, that is every, receipt.
Whow, very good piece of information...
SilverGhost
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Another reason lubricity doesn't seem to help is the pump is not always the source of the failure. I talked the instructor at VW and he relayed engineer findings that the Piezeo injectors were failing. The debris from the piezeo waffers get into the pump and chew it up.
This fits with what happened to one of our techs. He forgot to bleed a fuel system after replacing everything. He started it up, it burped and died, then wouldn't restart. Tech line told him that there was probably air in the injectors and he broke the waffers. Replaced the injectors again, clean out the lines, bleed the system this time. It started right up and has been fine since.
On that note the Passat (which has almost zero HPFP failure) and the new EA288 have solenoid injectors instead of piezeo.
Jason
This fits with what happened to one of our techs. He forgot to bleed a fuel system after replacing everything. He started it up, it burped and died, then wouldn't restart. Tech line told him that there was probably air in the injectors and he broke the waffers. Replaced the injectors again, clean out the lines, bleed the system this time. It started right up and has been fine since.
On that note the Passat (which has almost zero HPFP failure) and the new EA288 have solenoid injectors instead of piezeo.
Jason
psrumors
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How is injector debris able to get into the pump? Is fuel from the rail able to get back to the pump without first going to the tank and back through the filtering system?
nedcall
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reporting HPFP failure
Reported on two threads here that seem to be appropriate (not sure what the "correct" one might be). I'll check NHTSA website and report today.
SilverGhost
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The return lines from the fuel rail goes back and tees off on top of the HPFP before all of them dump into the fuel filter. From there it can be returned directly back into the HPFP. Also I seem to remember a SSP (self study program) indicating that the rail return pressure being higher (>10BAR for fuel injectors to function) and to lower pumping losses it is recycled back into the HPFP.
Either case if enough piezo crystal debris gets loose in the system it will eventually get everywhere. And I'm not sure if the filter can properly remove it from the fuel system.
Jason
Either case if enough piezo crystal debris gets loose in the system it will eventually get everywhere. And I'm not sure if the filter can properly remove it from the fuel system.
Jason
Scratchy101
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I've posted this here before, but somehow this myth is still alive.
The fuel does not come in contact with the piezo crystals.
More fuel for the fire starting at post 11 on this thread as well:
Injector video link from thread above - post 12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNMgaYfCMHs
How is this going to contaminate the fuel?
The fuel does not come in contact with the piezo crystals.
More fuel for the fire starting at post 11 on this thread as well:
Injector video link from thread above - post 12:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNMgaYfCMHs
How is this going to contaminate the fuel?
SilverGhost
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I don't know, why don't you ask the engineer from VW that was telling us this? I'm just passing along what I learned from the people that design and build the things.
Jason
Edit; from that video it appears there is a small diaphragm/membrane that separates the piezo crystal from the plug surrounded with fuel. If or when the crystal were to fail and be damaged I could see the diaphragm eventually allowing crystal powder to migrate into the low pressure zone of the injector.
Jason
Edit; from that video it appears there is a small diaphragm/membrane that separates the piezo crystal from the plug surrounded with fuel. If or when the crystal were to fail and be damaged I could see the diaphragm eventually allowing crystal powder to migrate into the low pressure zone of the injector.
tditom
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BMW was using the Bosch piezo injectors on the 335d and x5 35d sold on this continent from 2009-2014. If the injectors are the root cause you'd expect at least some failures in those. I've been following the BMW diesels closely and have not seen any reported HPFP failures.