When to shift/downshift

coast in gear, this puts the engine into a mode called "Over-Run". It's simple the engines rpms are being sustained when the ECU sees the pedal at "0 Load" or Idle. Since rpms are above Idle rpm of 900 the ECU reduces fuel to 0 until the rpms approach within 300 or so rpm of 900, then the fueling slowly returns to achieve a smooth transition to normal idle rpm.

I would suggest to leave the car in gear until you slow to 1500 rpm, then shift. Another ideal is if you know you are coming to a complete stop, put the car in neutral and once you are around 10mph select first and leave it there until you resume your driving.

On off ramps, coasting in gear allows you to quickly cool the turbo down. This reduces the stress on the turbo and eliminates the need for cool down idiling. The less you idle these cars the better off you will be.

Your sticking with the 2500/3000 rule will serve you VERY well for the life of your car! It will reward you with low maintenance and less probability of driver induced problems.

Practice makes better, get out and just get used to the downshift. I know when my wife would transition from our old honda to the Jetta that she struggled with the downshifting, so no big deal.

DB

Thanks- this helps on the downshifting

Thanks- this helps. So when I'm in traffic.. in the city at lights and stuff I shouldnt worry too much about downshifting up to a light? Just put it into neutral and then into first... but I shouldnt be sitting at a long light with my foot on the clutch right? That would be bad for the clutch... maybe you mean if I'm coming up to a stop sign to do the shift into first at 10mph. So on an offramp it helps to coast and then downshift say from 5th to 3rd, cooling off the turbo?

Another Q: when starting off from a stop I've noticed that these TDI's have so much torque at low rpms that I can start letting out the clutch slowly (and all the way) in first without even giving the car any gas... I found this is the easiest way for me to be smooth getting into first or when I'm in reverse... is this ok to do? Any suggestion for hills? I know this is a lot of newbie manual shifting questions- sorry I'm trying to remember how to ride the bike again.

heel and toe downshifting

My understanding is that double clutching is completly unneccesary since 'syncro' transmissions came about.

Heel and toe downshifting can be hard, but the reward is the smoothest downshift you can imagine. What you do is called 'rev matching'. Your goal is to get the engine speed to the speed it will be at AFTER the downshift. Thus when the clutch is engaged during a downshift, the engine is already running at the approximate rpm's it would be after the downshift. The clutch engages so smoothly it cannot be felt engaging. There is no sudden slow-down either.

HOW TO: Note: I started doing this last fall and still haven't mastered it. It requires a good knowledge of your transmissions gearing so you know how much to blip the throttle. Also, I have size 13 feet, this helps!

- You are coming to a left hand turn off main street in your town. You are in 3rd gear cruising at 35 mph. You need to be in second gear to make the turn. This is an excellent place to heel and toe downshift.
- As you come to the turn, flip your turn signal, and start to brake.
- When you reach 25-30 mph begin your downshift (Note that (in an A4 jetta) this will cause your revs to bounce way up to 2,200 rpm, this would be a rough downshift)
- Engage the clutch with your left foot, while continuing to brake with your right foot
- Using your right hand, shift into 2nd
- NOW THE HARD PART: With your left foot still engaging the clutch, slide the upper half of your foot off the brake pedal (but don't stop braking), and blip the throttle with your toe. Thus, your heel continues to brake while the upper half of your foot slides over to the 'accelerate pedal.'
- After bliping the engine and causing the revs to shoot up, engage the clutch.
-If all is done correctly, the engine will be spinning at 2,200 rpms when the clutch is engaged.

Most common problem- foot slips off the brake when trying to slide your toes onto the trottle. THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS, PRACTICE WITHOUT ANYBODY AROUND FOR THE FIRST FEW WEEKS.

Benefits- Smoothness, and the ability to accelerate around a corner or during a turn, NOT after the turn. If done correctly, it increases saftey as you will be able to use your engines acceleration to avoid problems. Increases clutch life.

DBW's advice is good, I never downshift through all the gears when coming to a stop sign. Just coast from 3rd gear down. Remember, it is the brakes job to stop the car, not the transmission's. (YOUR NOT DRIVING A BIG RIG)

Also, you can just rev match without braking (your right foot ONLY blips the throttle), then apply the brakes, but this can only be done in some circumstances. It is best to know how to do both and use them accordingly.


Google search "heel and toe downshifting" or "rev matching" and there are hundreds of hits that explain clearer than I can how to do this. There are also sites with video tutorials!

i'm down with FlyTDIGuy when me mentiones "becoming one with the engine." i find it easy to tell how the engine is running, and and when i need to shift. i've also been driving stick all my life.
DBW also has indispensible advice - the 2500 when cold 3000+ when warm rule.
also, italian tune-up is a good part of any driver's drive. these cars were designed to run fast.
coasting in gear is a good idea - saves fuel; provides safety, control. fuel economy forum discuses this often.

the rest, i think is a matter of preference.

I am new to this form and very new to owning a tdi...picking it up today i am really learning a lot from reading your posts and glad i see that there is a good sense of humor here...anxiously awaiting 4 pm to pick up my new new beetle looking forward to reading more

eb2143, with a TDI if your holding the clutch and brake in you actually have to blip the throttle twice since they have a safety feature that limits rpms to 1200 with the clutch and brake held down at the same time. I noticed this on this corner on the way into my work that I always rev match going down into 3rd.

hmm, Doesn't seem that way on mine. Maybe I do it without thining about it.

What year is your car? I bet the non drive-by-wire ones dont do it if you have an older one that has a throttle cable. If you have a drive by wire one try doing it while your sitting still in the driveway or whatever. If you hold all 3 pedals down it should only go to 1200 rpms.

TooRoundTDI said:

What year is your car? I bet the non drive-by-wire ones.....

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All TDIs, at least in NA, are drive by wire.

Ok, I ve been reading all of these posts about shifting, break in period, loading the turbo ect, and all is well and good. Well it's good for my 2002 Jetta that I've been driving as recomended since I got it. NOW comes my question. I bought a 2004 Passat Wagon w/Triptonic & 45K on it. I drive it in manual mode and shift it, but it's my wifes car and she drives with the Auto. I took it out tonight and drove it in Auto to see at what RPM's it shifted at and it was around 1800. DBW says that ECU unit "learns" when to shift, so is there any way I can teach it, other than getting my wife to "drive like she stole it"? This car is Beautiful, I just hope that the original owner didn't baby it too much. Also, the milage, ALL city driving is around 25. I know this car should do better than that. Any suggestions?

rdean, I have the tiptronic in my 2005 Golf PD TDI.
The owner's manual mentions a "self adapting" feature in section 3.1 page 90. I too have been experimenting with the shift points.
Hope this helps.
John

Drivbiwire said:

Your freakin nuts! Driving a TDI with a VNT15 Turbo like that will jam the guide vanes, doubt me? Keep doing that and you will be replacing your turbo at about 40-50,000 miles along with the rest of the engine! Why you say? Jammed rings since you never allow the engine to get on boost.

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DB, he was talking about downshift. The turbo is not on boost when going into a downshift. Is it?

Starting from the start

jcrissey said:

Another Q: when starting off from a stop I've noticed that these TDI's have so much torque at low rpms that I can start letting out the clutch slowly (and all the way) in first without even giving the car any gas... I found this is the easiest way for me to be smooth getting into first or when I'm in reverse... is this ok to do? Any suggestion for hills? I know this is a lot of newbie manual shifting questions- sorry I'm trying to remember how to ride the bike again.

Click to expand...

Now this is the part I don't get... I am new to the TDI (not even one week yet!) and fairly new to manual transmissions. As such I fear two things more than anything... unnecessary clutch wear and stalling! The two actually combine with starting the car... I feel my fear of stalling is increasing my clutch wear. While I don't give the car too much gas while letting out the clutch I do try and keep it around 1200rpm while letting the clutch out perhaps too slowly. This may be bad.

I would love clarification on the above quote as I'd like to try it but am not interested in stalling the car and restarting over and over.

Also, I would love to know what I should be or could be doing while "creeping" around, like in very slow moving traffic or inching up to a stop sign in a line of cars. Again more fear of stalling and unnecessary clutch wear!

I guess clutch wear will happen but after a decade of driving I'm in a whole new world and am just trying to discover limits and best practices (and hopefully find a nice comfort zone in them!)

cheers

o

space versus tdi said:

Now this is the part I don't get... I am new to the TDI (not even one week yet!) and fairly new to manual transmissions. As such I fear two things more than anything... unnecessary clutch wear and stalling! The two actually combine with starting the car... I feel my fear of stalling is increasing my clutch wear. While I don't give the car too much gas while letting out the clutch I do try and keep it around 1200rpm while letting the clutch out perhaps too slowly. This may be bad.

I would love clarification on the above quote as I'd like to try it but am not interested in stalling the car and restarting over and over.

Also, I would love to know what I should be or could be doing while "creeping" around, like in very slow moving traffic or inching up to a stop sign in a line of cars. Again more fear of stalling and unnecessary clutch wear!

I guess clutch wear will happen but after a decade of driving I'm in a whole new world and am just trying to discover limits and best practices (and hopefully find a nice comfort zone in them!)

cheers

o

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there is nothing you can do about clutch wear, sooner or later it will wear out. fact of life, deal with it. as per stalling, its not life threatening, but i wouldnt do it more than 20 times in a row. happens to all of us, you just have to get used to the pedals and not burn the clutch as you become more proficient with your left-right foot coordination.

if you like being an a-hole like me, you will let your car idle in gear while in traffic. 1st~7mph, 2nd~13mph, 3rd~20mph (not sure, its been a while)
and with that you can just leave it in gear an putt along while everyone else is going from 0 to 50 and back.
also, your engine doesent care at what RPMS its spinning, so if you time it right, you dont have to use your brakes at all while in traffic. just make sure to give enough room to the guy in front of you, so hes starting off just as you are coming up behind him. meanwhile shifting isnt lethal, you dont wanna over do it, just as you dont want lame fuel economy. sometimes you gotta shift, sometimes you dont.

listen to your senses, keep an eye out for the road, be aware of the conditions. driving isnt that hard, just make sure no harm comes to you, your car, or anyone else on the same road from your actions.

My Passat is the easiest stick shift car to start from a stop. As suggested, just let out the clutch slowly (not tooooooo slow) and it will get you going pretty nicely. Then push the accellerator pedal. It takes about a second to get moving, but less wear on the clutch than gunning it and letting it out. Practice it in an empty parking lot.

The "running on idle" is great in traffic. The less you have to touch your brakes, the betten economy you get. Just a fact of life.

Drivbiwire said:

Your freakin nuts! Driving a TDI with a VNT15 Turbo like that will jam the guide vanes, doubt me? Keep doing that and you will be replacing your turbo at about 40-50,000 miles along with the rest of the engine! Why you say? Jammed rings since you never allow the engine to get on boost.

NEVER I repeat NEVER shift ANY A4 TDI like that.

When do you shift a TDI you ask? Here is your answer:
-When cold at 2,500 rpm minimum
-When the engine is warm 3,000 rpm minimum

Trying to lug a TDI that is designed to operate in the 2,000-5,100 rpm range below 2,000 rpm is suicide for your turbo and intake tract.

DB

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How would you respond to Audi5000TDI's post to my thread Poor fuel economy on 2003 jetta TDI (in Fuel Economy Forum):

FYI, Clogged manifolds are a thing of the past with ULSD. Harvieux can confirm California cars he's bought used that have 80 to 120 kmiles on them that don't need the manifold cleaned. There is no reason to drive the car like you stole it. What you should do is drive it like a diesel, not like a gasser, and lets the engine and the torque accelerate the car, not the rpms.

Ernie kicks everyones butts in the MPG contest, he short shifts at low rpm, his turbos vanes aren't stuck and his manifold isn't clogged. If you are blowing black smoke out your tail pipe, you are clogging the intake manifold. It's that black soot that sticks to the oil film in the intake manifold that causes the buildup. The folks that have been driving diesels for 25 years or more know how to maximize the mpg, the kids on TDI that don't have the experience are the ones promoting "drive it like you stole it" to justify driving like hot rodders.
__________________

Interested to get your opnion on this beceause I've been sticking to the 2500/3000 rule.... what are your thoughts Drivbiwire?

Driving like a little old lady

I drove my car like a little old lady. I shifted around 1800 or 1900 rpm's. My jetta left me on the road at 40k with a clogged intake. I recently took it to the dealership with 110k on it. The intake was clogged again and the egr was gummed up along with the vnt15 actuator. I now waiting to see what the dealership can do for me. It is your car and since there are two schools of thought on this drive it the way you want to.

jcrissey said:

How would you respond to Audi5000TDI's post to my thread Poor fuel economy on 2003 jetta TDI (in Fuel Economy Forum):

FYI, Clogged manifolds are a thing of the past with ULSD. Harvieux can confirm California cars he's bought used that have 80 to 120 kmiles on them that don't need the manifold cleaned. There is no reason to drive the car like you stole it. What you should do is drive it like a diesel, not like a gasser, and lets the engine and the torque accelerate the car, not the rpms.

Ernie kicks everyones butts in the MPG contest, he short shifts at low rpm, his turbos vanes aren't stuck and his manifold isn't clogged. If you are blowing black smoke out your tail pipe, you are clogging the intake manifold. It's that black soot that sticks to the oil film in the intake manifold that causes the buildup. The folks that have been driving diesels for 25 years or more know how to maximize the mpg, the kids on TDI that don't have the experience are the ones promoting "drive it like you stole it" to justify driving like hot rodders.
__________________

Interested to get your opnion on this beceause I've been sticking to the 2500/3000 rule.... what are your thoughts Drivbiwire?

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I'd like an explanation of how Ernie has 123k miles on his 2003 NB, drives it like an Old Man (he is past 65 in age) and has never had a clogged intake manifold, stuck vanes or anything of that nature, yet gets 63 to 78 mpg putting his car around across the nation? Last time I had him look at his scan gauge, the manifold air pressure at 2000 rpm in 5th gear when he floored it went to 31 psi then stabilized at 28 psi. He did this 4 times, about 60 mph going to 70 mph. Obviously his vanes were adjusting the pitch to control the overboost situation.

All it takes to get the vanes moving is stepping deeply into the throttle, but always make a point of doing it above 2000rpm when you hammer it down. I prefer to roll my foot into the throttle deep over a 3/4 to 1 second period if I'm going to do this. It creates less soot and smoke out the back end. You can do one of three things to minimize clogged intake manifolds.

1. If you can get it, run ULSD every chance you get instead of LSD 500ppm sulfur fuel. Don't buy cheap crappy fuel that smokes when you hammer it. Take your business elsewhere if you can. That smoke is you generating particulate matter, which is the crap that your EGR circulates over a thin film of oil from your turbo seal in the intake manifold. That particulate matter sticks to the oil, and you get the crud build up. No soot = no crud to stick to the oil film to create the build up.
2. Install a Mann Provent inline with your CCV system to trap most of the oil, so it doesnt coat the inside of your intake manifold.
3. Adjust with VagCom your EGR duty cycle to the minimum allowed. This allow less soot/particulate matter into your intake manifold to stick.

Driving it like you stole it is not one of them. It's fine for doing it a few times a week driving to work when the engine is new and you have 2 or 3 k miles on an engine, to help seat the rings until about 5 k miles.

After that, once or twice per tankful of hard hammering for a few minute is sufficient. Beyond that is abusive of your equipment.

If you want to unstick your vanes, do a search on "Block 11" get VAGCOM, go in to BLOCK 11 with your motor idling and have VAgcom cycle your vanes for you to loosen things up and check the full cycle range on your laptop.

In Europe, they have completly diferent expectations and duty cycles for their cars engines than here in America. 10-15k km per year, due to $6 a gallon fuel is normal, over 10 years means a motor has to make it 150k to 200k kilometers tops in it's lifetime. You can tweak tune a motor a lot hotter if you expect it to last less miles before the car gets junked in Europe. The life cycle is shorter and harder worked.

In America and the Wild Wild West, we drive 20 to 30k miles a year in wide open spaces in TDI's. We think in terms of 300 to 400 k miles, over 500k kilometers as the useful life of a diesel sedan. Thats 3 times what the Eurpeans expect. The only way to do this and get the longevity is to moderate the tuning so the motor and drive train will be less stressed and go the distance.

As for shifting up or down, if it's smooth and you can't feel it in terms of change of rate of aceleration or deceleration, you are doing it right. Strive to shift smooth.

Drivbiwire said:

Your freakin nuts! Driving a TDI with a VNT15 Turbo like that will jam the guide vanes, doubt me? Keep doing that and you will be replacing your turbo at about 40-50,000 miles along with the rest of the engine! Why you say? Jammed rings since you never allow the engine to get on boost.

NEVER I repeat NEVER shift ANY A4 TDI like that.

When do you shift a TDI you ask? Here is your answer:
-When cold at 2,500 rpm minimum
-When the engine is warm 3,000 rpm minimum

Trying to lug a TDI that is designed to operate in the 2,000-5,100 rpm range below 2,000 rpm is suicide for your turbo and intake tract.

DB

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5100 RPM is way out to lunch on a PD, no? The PD engine redlines at 4500 or so.
Is your shifting recommendation valid for PD engines?

Serveral people have said something to the effect of "let the car teach you". This makes a lot of sense to me. Thankfully in this age of automatics I learned to drive on a stick (thanks Mom!). I've only had my TDI for a week, but the first time I got in it shifting was a no-brainer. I could tell when to shift, almost without thinking about it. A couple days laterr I found this thread, and started worrying that I had it all wrong, and was going to damage my car, blow the turbo, so some such horrible thing. After reading through the whole thread, I think I had it right to start with. Just listening to the engine and it doesn't seem really any different from a manual gasoline car...

wny_pat said:

Drive it like it's a Detroit 318! But that is only for the guys who remember them.

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Now thats going back a while the old SCREAM 18's had one of them in a Kentucky Cadillac with a 13 over hockey puck shifter.The harder ya drove em the better they run just like the ole 238's.

You know you just never know how the other fellow thinks. If I stole a car I would be very moderate in how I drove the car. I would not want to attract attention, so it would have to be moderate speeds and acceleration. It would be a cross between the racer and grand paw. Now if I were running from the law after having stolen a vehicle, that would be different, and include high speeds.

I do understand what you mean though. Accelerate very briskly up to speed using higher RPMs, then drive the speed limit with a poke at the accelerator once in a while to cause the VNT to move. I know it violates several old rules, but those vanes need the exercise to stay free of rust.

Too bad they don't have a wire hooked up that says jiggle this 20 times a week to keep your vanes free. Or a switch, that in conjunction with the computer, cycles the vanes while you drive in a safe area. Give them a few more years some stainless steel and a little thought and stuck vanes will be something old school folks talk about.

The intake plugging and vnt seizing is not the fault of the driver(unless a 100% throttle has been requested at speeds well below 1900 rpm), Due to the software in all modern diesels the fuel well ramp up with the boost pressure, taking into account the inadequate control the stock system has, Surging overshots lag etc. the egr mod sounds like a good idea , but comes st the expense of increased nox emissions.best thing to do for a vnt is to let it breathe. Remove the doc(catalyst) , if the intake is plugging then chanses are the the doc is plugging as well. in order for this piece of emissions equipment to work properly the exaust temps must be above 700f 70% of the time or plugging can become an issue.

Eh.

I'm in the "be one with the car" crowd, but always keeping my eyes open.
I'd like to suggest a slight modification for DB's 2500/3000+ shift points. When warm, I've noticed that by happenstance I'm shifting at whatever point gets the next gear in at around 1900-2000. I couldn't possibly say what those shift points are but I know shifting to 2nd is around ~3050, then 3rd is slightly less, 4th less than that, etc. The engine speed drops to the same point, more or less, after each shift. This is for normal driving of course.

Hopefully being all over the place doesn't hurt things when it comes to driving styles. Around my small town I tend to be a granny, sometimes running 35 mph in 5th on flat land... And sometimes on the interstate, traffic permitting, my foot will stay planted to the floor for 20-30 minutes at a stretch. The vast majority of the time though, I drive as described in the first paragraph.

More and more time lately has been spent with me driving around the Miss. Delta, where the roads are flat and straight for long distances. I've had a few 49-50 mpg tanks back to back - we'll see if later on I get clogged.

I'm not the best downshifter, I'll admit. And the article I'm about read will honestly be my first ever insight into heel-toe shifting.

PS: My NYC driving experience has been that even in the right lane you'll get run over if you're taking your time... It took me about 2 minutes to realize I was gonna get myself killed after crossing the Williamsburg Bridge into Manhattan, if I didn't get aggressive. So I put my Atlanta skills to use and began to fit right in.

so is it bad if i drive it like i stole it i kidd... well sometimes

blackout06 said:

so is it bad if i drive it like i stole it i kidd... well sometimes

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Well, there is the whole "autobahn bred" thing. I know this "tiny engine" does pretty well at high speed. I tailed a CR-V most of the way home after sunrise this morn' on the interstate and finally passed her because she couldn't keep above 95 uphill.

I don't think it hurts anything to drive agressively. 'Cept mileage. Sometimes, it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

Tom Servo said:

I don't think it hurts anything to drive agressively. 'Cept mileage. Sometimes, it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

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agreed.

Tom Servo said:

I'm in the "be one with the car" crowd, but always keeping my eyes open.
I'd like to suggest a slight modification for DB's 2500/3000+ shift points. When warm, I've noticed that by happenstance I'm shifting at whatever point gets the next gear in at around 1900-2000. I couldn't possibly say what those shift points are but I know shifting to 2nd is around ~3050, then 3rd is slightly less, 4th less than that, etc. The engine speed drops to the same point, more or less, after each shift. This is for normal driving of course.
Hopefully being all over the place doesn't hurt things when it comes to driving styles. Around my small town I tend to be a granny, sometimes running 35 mph in 5th on flat land... And sometimes on the interstate, traffic permitting, my foot will stay planted to the floor for 20-30 minutes at a stretch. The vast majority of the time though, I drive as described in the first paragraph.
More and more time lately has been spent with me driving around the Miss. Delta, where the roads are flat and straight for long distances. I've had a few 49-50 mpg tanks back to back - we'll see if later on I get clogged.
I'm not the best downshifter, I'll admit. And the article I'm about read will honestly be my first ever insight into heel-toe shifting.
PS: My NYC driving experience has been that even in the right lane you'll get run over if you're taking your time... It took me about 2 minutes to realize I was gonna get myself killed after crossing the Williamsburg Bridge into Manhattan, if I didn't get aggressive. So I put my Atlanta skills to use and began to fit right in.

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Again, Agreed. Yay for heel-toe shifting! I thought i'd figured that one out on my own....

Bora-chiara said:

Again, Agreed. Yay for heel-toe shifting! I thought i'd figured that one out on my own....

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Okay, confession time. That post was from back in March and so far I have yet to master heel/toe shifting. In fact I pretty much gave up on it a while back. I do well enough blipping the throttle before downshifts, so decided to leave it to the pros.

WHIFF said:

5100 RPM is way out to lunch on a PD, no? The PD engine redlines at 4500 or so.
Is your shifting recommendation valid for PD engines?

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Can someone pls answer the original question for PD engines?