Installed 3.0 TDI Turbo in 2.7 TDI

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Went for a more or less final Insoric Power Measurement today after bumping up fuel to max ~90mg/str and 2.1bar boost. Weight about 2007Kg with 2 people in the car.

With good cold dry weather today hit 343.4HP and 622.7NM. :D :D The power was probably a bit more wider to 5000rpm but I did not take it all the way to the rev limiter.

The clutch is sort of at the limit, especially with the cold weather. But car is running great. I will upgrade the clutch.

I also did a 100-200kmh measurement with VCDS and got another second less going to 90mg/str from 86mg/str. You really feel a difference between 86mg/str and 90mg/str. 90mg/str really feels solid. If you consider 13.xx secs for 100-200kmh and losing almost 1 sec shifting from 4th to 5th and the car being almost 2 tons. Then upper 12s is not bad.

I upgraded the boost gauge to Raid HP digital and to 3 bar since I am maxing out at 2.2bar. Much, much better to have digital gauges.

GTB2260VK what a turbo!!! :D









 
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eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
How accurate is this method of measuring compared to well calibrated non optimistic dyno?
I am not an expert on Dynos and with all the endless dyno fudge factor discussions I am very glad there is a straight forward, transparent and uniform method that can be used anywhere and the evaluation is done in real world on the road measurement. Potentially you could end dyno discussions. Of course you can cheat with this device also, but there is no unintentional error. Essentially you need a reasonable flat road section (can drive both ways to check accuracy and use for correction), accurate weight of the vehicle. I checked 100Kg off gives 20HP error. Basically you floor it to rev limiter and let it roll. The sensor on the wheel very very very accurately at a high rate of sampling captures the vehicle speed vs time using an accurate measurement of the tire diameter. When we checked the log, it even showed up the speedo error at low speeds - rpm vs speed. After acceleration the roll down calculates the losses including wind resistance etc. The rest is in the physics formulas. It is a simple but great idea that a Prof in Switzerland came up with for precision. It is now widespread in Germany. The consensus is if it is done correctly it is very accurate. The key is to record the speed accurately at high sampling. There is a youtube video on the method (Insoric) from the Prof but is in German. The only time I can see it being an issue is if you have traction loss due to too much power - it will mess up the signature, whereas on the dyno you strap down etc. and prevent slip but in reality you would have traction loss anyway on the road - i.e. it is the power being transferred to the pavement - real world power. Unfortunately the price is quite high else i would buy the device. It is a fairly inexpensive device but like all the tuning stuff, they ask for a lot of money ~4000-5000€.

Mac, now i need a clutch upgrade. :D Any recommendations?
 

Macradiators.com

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Location
Romania
TDI
2.0 CR 360hp
I hear the perfexpert also gives good results when calibrated well. Weight of the car, frontal section area and CX play an important role.
Dynomet is another similar tool to Insoric, a guy in poland tested it different time VS Vtech dyno and he got pretty similar results.
Price about 3000€
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
I hear the perfexpert also gives good results when calibrated well. Weight of the car, frontal section area and CX play an important role.
Dynomet is another similar tool to Insoric, a guy in poland tested it different time VS Vtech dyno and he got pretty similar results.
Price about 3000€
Interesting. Thanks for the info!
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Got the clutch upgrade done. Used the Sachs Race Engineering (SRE) Pressure Plate and the SRE Organic Disc without springs. I decided not to go with an SMF at this point - figured a bit smoother with the DMF, less noises and not going totally crazy on power. Goal is to hold 650NM-700NM. Also the SMFs are quite pricey. This setup is officially rated at 550NM but holding fine.

A bit grabby initially taking off in 1st and reverse is worse, also engine braking into 2nd some chatter, but even after 3 days it has gotten a lot better. As posts in the internet say after 500miles equivalent town running should be fine. The biting point is higher up on the pedal, extemely short travel distance, so shifts are quicker.

This time I got some local guys to do the job. I felt the tranny is too heavy to bench press or do in the 'driveway' as I have done in the past with the 4cyl. Young Serbian German chap opened up his own garage couple of years ago. Really knowledgeable, nice guy gave me a good price. One journeyman and one apprentice took 5 hours together.

Parts removed were: piece of the exhaust, axle joints, transmission crossbar, gear cables and connectors.

In summary I really want to thank all the eastern europeans (Poland, Estonia, Finland (not quite 'east' but kind of - lol), CZ, Bulgaria) who helped with this project giving tips on the tuning. Could not have come this far without their tips out of sheer generosity and solidarity.






















 
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adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
Eddie, i can see you’re still on original brakes, are 320mm big enough to stop you ? I had same brakes on a c5 a6 before and 335mm on a c5 allroad and they were scary sometimes ! I moved to 8pot calipers after as the brakes did not inspire me with confidence after getting brake fade a couple of times !
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Eddie, i can see you’re still on original brakes, are 320mm big enough to stop you ? I had same brakes on a c5 a6 before and 335mm on a c5 allroad and they were scary sometimes ! I moved to 8pot calipers after as the brakes did not inspire me with confidence after getting brake fade a couple of times !
You are right. I am on 321mm brakes and there is a 347mm system from gasser 3.0T etc which can be used. However a while ago I switched to Zimmermann Discs with holes and the braking improved alot. Before that as soon as I did high speed hard braking on the autobahn >200kmh the brake discs warped immediately. These ones are not bad actually, but something maybe to do when the weather gets better.
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Well 3 months later, the clutch hasn't been the best. It took a long time to break in, still has a little shudder in 1st and more in reverse due to lack of springs in the disc. Currently with the 90mg tune it slips in 5th gear. But in a strange way. For the 1st, 2nd WOT runs in 5th it slips but then after that it grips. Not sure why, sort of opposite to regular clutch which gets glazed. So it may get better with time. At the beginning after some break in time when I tried to test it, it was slipping even more. But now it has gotten less with time.

I might go back to an upgraded stock clutch. May have been better in the end.


The other option is the B8 dual clutch would be neat, but needs someone to adapt it to my BPP. Any recommendations for someone who could adapt this clutch or offers custom builds? I believe the hub needs to be changed out on the B8.
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Ended up putting a new stock clutch and new stock DMF on the advice of Jens at CCC Motorsport. He said the original LUK was a great clutch and no one has improved on it in this config. as seen through his testing.

Well, what do you know, the new stock combo is holding great without any issues and back to stock feel too. Jens had warned me that the SRE stiff disc and SRE pressure plate were useless. When SRE said 550NM max this time, they really meant it. Various people said the SRE would be better than stock including DLI etc. (Maybe in the past). Jens always maintained a new stock LUK clutch was the best around after testing. His analysis is on fb here.

The used stock clutch I had earlier was better than the SRE solution. Wasted a grand.

See Force Numbers in Red:


 
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ben0069

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Location
wales
TDI
allroad 2.5 tdi v6
Hey Eddie,
Just thought it was worth mentioning about the issues you had with the sre clutch, I have experienced exactly the same, 1st is bad, reverse is even worse, changing down and the pedal is so hard, I'm sure my left leg is bigger than my right:)
I was thinking it was my driving style. I have the 2.5 tdi v6 which is around 280hp at the moment and am desperate to go back to stock feel.
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Hey Eddie,
Just thought it was worth mentioning about the issues you had with the sre clutch, I have experienced exactly the same, 1st is bad, reverse is even worse, changing down and the pedal is so hard, I'm sure my left leg is bigger than my right:)
I was thinking it was my driving style. I have the 2.5 tdi v6 which is around 280hp at the moment and am desperate to go back to stock feel.

Hi Ben, Thanks for the feedback. Right, I had the same shuddering as you except I think yours might be actually holding the higher torque because your stiff pedal indicates the pressure plate is probably clamping better. I think they tried to reduce the stiff pedal effect and ended up making the pressure plate weaker. From what time frame was your clutch?

Now they have a ridiculous product:
1) Costs double the stock clutch.
2) Does not hold as much as the stock clutch.
3) Shuddering with no performance benefit.
4) Made their pressure plate incompatible with the stock clutch disc for business reasons, whilst the stock disc with springs would give the stock feel.

According to Jens what they are doing is basically using their Sachs Performance name to show market presence although the product is actually sub-par. If vendors like DLI are also supporting these sub-par products you kind of wonder what is going on.
 

ben0069

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Location
wales
TDI
allroad 2.5 tdi v6
Time scale was 2012/13.
I recently bought a new flywheel in preparation for the new clutch, I already have a sachs clutch disc that I bought a few years ago and am looking to buy a new pressure plate next, will definitely go oem for that.
This is the combination I was going to try next, not sure if the disc will make any difference or not...
 

adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
Time scale was 2012/13.
I recently bought a new flywheel in preparation for the new clutch, I already have a sachs clutch disc that I bought a few years ago and am looking to buy a new pressure plate next, will definitely go oem for that.
This is the combination I by as going to try next, not sure if the disc will make any difference or not...
Ben, i sold my black allroad with a gtb2260vk turbo to one of my mates, the stock brand nee Luk clutch has stood well to a hybrid like yours for nearly 3 years however it started slupping after the gtb2260vk 6 months after new ownership... The luk clutch will not last long to a tuned v6 tdi with race 683 nozzles however might hold ok to your cars spec. i have a few friends with larger turbos than yours and their sachs sre clutches hold ok even with heavy abuse!
 

Pittdawg

Veteran Member
Joined
May 28, 2018
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
2014 Audi Q5 TDI
Finally got around to upgrading to the BiTDI MAF. Used the BiTDI plastic tube and a 45deg elbow silicone reducer from ~78mm ~57mm. Cut the silicone reducer to get the right length. The CCV is venting through a hose at the moment, but need to couple it into the plastic BiTDI tube section. Plot included of the BiTDI MAF linearization map which is 37point while my stock BPP MAP is 57 point. Adapted the BiTDI MAF to 57 point.

Still need to try it out on the highway. Not 100% sure if this was the limitation. My IQ was being limited fairly linearly above ~4000rpm. Could be other limiters as well.
Do you happen to have the part number for the BITDI plastic intake to turbo inlet pipe? Is it the same part across the B8 platform, i.e. it should work on my 2014 Q5?
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Do you happen to have the part number for the BITDI plastic intake to turbo inlet pipe? Is it the same part across the B8 platform, i.e. it should work on my 2014 Q5?
Hi, the plastic intake part number is: 059129629B. This part was from a SQ5 in Europe which also has the BiTurbo engine CGQB.
I used this part and cut it to fit into a reducer silicon hose for the GTB2260VK attachment.
This piece wont fit on your car if it is not a BiTurbo. It needs the matching MAF housing as well to fit on one end and the other end will need some kind of hose adapter like I have shown above. The matching MAF housing is given in this discussion.
 

Xmc_Boss

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Location
France
TDI
A6 C6 2.7 tdi
hello,

i read all ! very insteresting. i have a6 2,7 tdi and i start remap.
So, with 2,6 bar (real 1,6b), 68mg, and rail 1600/1650 is a good starting point.

great stage with the 3.0 tdi turbo
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
hello,
i read all ! very insteresting. i have a6 2,7 tdi and i start remap.
So, with 2,6 bar (real 1,6b), 68mg, and rail 1600/1650 is a good starting point.
great stage with the 3.0 tdi turbo
Je vous en prie. Si vous avez besoin d'aide avec le map vous pouvez m'envoyer un message prive. Maintenant j'ai presque 90mg et 2,1bar.
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Upgraded the front brakes from 321mm to 360mm from A8/Phaeton/A6 armoured vehicle.
Was pretty straightforward. Used some brake hoses from ebay so called Panamera TRW hoses to avoid using the exepensive dealer item hose/brakeline/holder that was hard to find used. The calipers and carriers are easy to get used for regular price. Tied the ABS/Wear cable to the brake hose for now. The old holder I think can be modified to work with new caliper. Apart from the Calipers, all the hardware was TRW - Discs, Pads, Hoses.











 

adamss24

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Location
Great Britain
TDI
audi a4 2.5 tdi 98 quatrro 6speed
Looks like a good upgrade however i wonder how much unsprung weight they added to the car compared with the old setup ! I went wit the 380mm rs4/rs6 setup on my last car and they felt ok- great stopping power.
On the c5 allroad i sold with over 300 bhp i had a s4 b6 setup- 345mm discs and ATE pads- the brakes were not man enough and pedal would fade after a few hard braking from high speed on motorway ! It was scary at times to put your foot down and realize the brakes dont bite as they should !
 

eddie_1

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Location
Hannover, Germany formerly Toronto & NY
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 TDI tuned to 170HP, A6 Wagon 2008 TDI 2.7L tuned to 340HP
Well the 360mm on the front makes quite an aggressive difference. Really impressed, especially on the Autobahn.

Since I was on a roll, decided to upgrade the rear as well. :D Due to diesel scare used parts are cheap. Caliper/Handbrake motor 40€ per side. Went from 300mm to 330mm.











 

AirShoxEU

New member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Location
Bulgaria, Sofia
TDI
3.0TDI BMK
Great upgrade indeed. I have made it a long ago and results are GREAT. Due to rear being massive as well as vented, there is no more overheating when breaking smoothly from 180+
 
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