gpshumway
Veteran Member
And you've succeeded. 
CR engine HPFP analysis
- Thread starter oilhammer
- Start date
silversx80
Veteran Member
Another thing I've been thinking about: what break-in procedures were used with the HPFPs/fuel-systems that failed? There may not be a correlation at all, and I'm still leaning toward the contaminated fuel explanation (combined with low lubricity), but I think there are many variables that are not accounted for.
Was the break-in procedure done according to the Owner's Manual, VW and the engineers who designed the thing from the ground up, or was it done according to the witch-doctor approach?
Was the break-in procedure done according to the Owner's Manual, VW and the engineers who designed the thing from the ground up, or was it done according to the witch-doctor approach?
Derrel H Green
Top Post Dawg
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- Jun 2, 2002
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- Murrieta, California
- TDI
- An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Not at All
IMHO, we can dismiss that idea!
D
IMHO, we can dismiss that idea!
D
silversx80
Veteran Member
My take is always that the higher the amount of precision in equipment, the lower the margin of error. It's possible that break-in procedure, combined with low-lubricity and a high-precision part could have a correlation with the failure rate.Do you think this could be a problem.
dweisel
Case in point: Bosch recommends a wear scar rating of 460 microns or less, US fuel is 520 or less by regulation. That's just under 15% greater. If lubricity is the cause of the issue, that means that the part was designed with a factor of safety below 1.15. That's a pretty high precision part to teeter on the edge like that.
tdiatlast
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- Jan 21, 2009
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- Fort Worth, Texas
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- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
...like the Energizer bunny, this discussion "just goes on and on."...
I speculate, with others, I'm sure, that a load of un-additized ULSD of >520 occasionally gets into the marketplace.
Plus, don't fall into the trap of assuming(!) that any of these numbers we're throwing around are absolute. The range of numbers probably is wider than we might imagine.
I speculate, with others, I'm sure, that a load of un-additized ULSD of >520 occasionally gets into the marketplace.
Plus, don't fall into the trap of assuming(!) that any of these numbers we're throwing around are absolute. The range of numbers probably is wider than we might imagine.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
LMFAO, I hope the battery dies soo..n.
I waste too much time reading (and responding to) the SOS.
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
I'm spending too much time reading this and I don't even own one of these cars..LMFAO, I hope the battery dies soo..n.
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
Yes, I guess it's my engineering background and never-satisfied quest for more and more knowledge that keeps me interested.
(actually, my wife thinks I am getting psychologically dependent on these forums...)
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TonyJetta
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- Sep 15, 2005
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- Tucson, Az
- TDI
- '15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
I have the same issue...and she call it "car porn"Yes, I guess it's my engineering background and never-satisfied quest for more and more knowledge that keeps me interested.
Tony
Derrel H Green
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2002
- Location
- Murrieta, California
- TDI
- An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Good One
Sometimes our wives are smarter than we give 'em credit for being!
D
I have the same issue . . . and she calls it "car porn"
Tony
Sometimes our wives are smarter than we give 'em credit for being!
D
torqueit
Veteran Member
Somehow I just figured no one in here was getting any action anyway
Derrel H Green
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2002
- Location
- Murrieta, California
- TDI
- An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
Correct
You could say that and be correct with the amount of time some people spend here!
(Guilty as charged!)
D
You could say that and be correct with the amount of time some people spend here!
(Guilty as charged!)
D
TonyJetta
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2005
- Location
- Tucson, Az
- TDI
- '15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
I let the TDIclub assist in the pursuit of happiness! Keping the cars running well, efficient, and NEVER breaking down!
Tony
silversx80
Veteran Member
Good thing the JSW seats fold flat, right?
St.Hubbins
Veteran Member
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- '10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
Teacher's gonna be mad when she gets back and sees what's going on in here!Good thing the JSW seats fold flat, right?
pretty impressed that it took twenty-some odd pages for the conversation to regress into schoolboy innuendo... i was getting tired of learning stuff anyway.
Derrel H Green
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2002
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- Murrieta, California
- TDI
- An '05 MBZ E-320 CDI (W-211) replaced the '10 TDI JSW
St.Hubbins
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- Nashville
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- '10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
hey, don't get me wrong - i prefer to keep humor involved at all cost... 'cept maybe the cost of a new fuel system!
torqueit
Veteran Member
OK. I was the guilty party.
I will punish myself by making myself drive a Prius. OK, technically I won't because I traded it in for the TDI.
I will punish myself by making myself drive a Prius. OK, technically I won't because I traded it in for the TDI.
umrpunter
Veteran Member
All, this is what I found when I cracked my fuel filter canister
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.ph...tle=a7&cat=500
this is the shiny specks we are all talking about
But it gets better.
When I was putting the cap back on I splashed some fuel out of the container onto the canister. When it dried it left nothing but fine metal shavings ALL OVER THE CANISTER. You can see the distinct outline of my fingerprints in these shavings on the following picuter
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.ph...tle=b2&cat=500
Notice the gray tint of the canister outside of my fingerprints.....
this is bad bad news
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.ph...tle=a7&cat=500
this is the shiny specks we are all talking about
But it gets better.
When I was putting the cap back on I splashed some fuel out of the container onto the canister. When it dried it left nothing but fine metal shavings ALL OVER THE CANISTER. You can see the distinct outline of my fingerprints in these shavings on the following picuter
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.ph...tle=b2&cat=500
Notice the gray tint of the canister outside of my fingerprints.....
this is bad bad news
Sbeghan
Veteran Member
Time to start playing CYA for the imminent failure?
Pity that you can't point this out to VWOA and see if they'll just change the pump instead of the entire fuel system.
Pity that you can't point this out to VWOA and see if they'll just change the pump instead of the entire fuel system.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
Syphon some fuel from the tank (I was able to get about a 3/16" semi rigid tube down the filler tube) and see what the fuel in your tank looks like. I would take it to the dealer and let them examine it. See my thread. Your contamination looks significantly worse than mine. How many miles?
One more point, you might want to remove the fuel quantity regulator valve (2 torx screws) and examine it for metal specks. It on top of the HPFP.
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umrpunter
Veteran Member
flakessssss
It has 35,800 miles on it. Nothing but ULSD has been used, and almost all exclusively from texas, with 85% of that being from a shell station (not that it really matters).
I really like the idea of getting some fuel out of the tank, going to do that tonight. I may take two samples and keep one.
It has 35,800 miles on it. Nothing but ULSD has been used, and almost all exclusively from texas, with 85% of that being from a shell station (not that it really matters).
I really like the idea of getting some fuel out of the tank, going to do that tonight. I may take two samples and keep one.
St.Hubbins
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2010
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- Nashville
- TDI
- '10 Golf, DSG / '11 A3, DSG (both went buyback) - '15 GSW SE
phew! if this had been after consistent use of bio/lubricity additives i'd be ready to jump out a window
umrpunter
Veteran Member
phew! if this had been after consistent use of bio/lubricity additives i'd be ready to jump out a window
Agreed.
My luck has it that I didn't find out about this issue until about a month ago.
I wish I had known about the disparity between the fuel and the recommendations from Bosch when i bought the thing. I would have had no issue putting some additives/bio in it every tank. From the looks of it I'm afraid it's too late. I don't want to risk anything that could void warranty (additives).
Gut feeling is you're doing the right thing with the lubrication enhancer of your choice.
Also, I just wanted to say thank you all of you in tdiclub, without this resource I would have never stumbled upon this information.
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Red Rabbit
New member
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- Jan 6, 2008
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- Ottawa Canada
- TDI
- 84 Rabbit diesel L, 2001 Dodge 2500 4x4 24v Cummins, 2009 jetta tdi sportwagen
feeew I just made it through all the pages. That's alot of reading..
So I just wanted to sum up what I feel is going on here to see if this sounds right. I know no one knows for sure, and I don't visit here often but I own a 84 diesel rabbit, and a 01 cummins with the vp44 and we just bought a 09 wagon tdi with 34000 kms on it. I thought it was idling rough.
The hpfp is fed with plenty of fresh filtered fuel at about 63psi. I feed the vp44 with 20 psi and it is fine so lets assume that vw/bosch got this part right.
ulsd has a lubricity that is very close to the minimum recommendation from bosch to keep the hpfp happy. I think I read that a couple pages ago.
The piston on the hpfp is aloud to rotate freely in it's bore and has no design feature to prohibit this save...
the cam roller which rides on the cam without having a fixed position in regards to perfect cam/roller alignment except for when the cam lobe pushes the roller into alignment as it rides up on the compression strokes. The rest of the time the return spring pressure is supposed to do that.
The original pics showed alot of cam wear and since there are two lobes and since the roller shows less wear (but alot of galling) I shall conclude at this time that the vast majority of the metal found in the fuel system is from the cam lobes.
Since the roller can contact the cam at a skewed angle relative to the centerline of the cam the resulting friction between the cam and roller increase as the contact patch decreases with the increase of the skewed roller angle. (This was referred to as slippage in a previous post.)
If fuel lubricity is at a close tolerance with the MINIMUM requirements of the hpfp and no one at bosch has allowed for the amount of slippage and resultant increase in friction between the roller and cam then it might be possible (and I'm really going out on a limb here)that the cam can wear sending out bits of metal which foul the roller, foul the injectors causing rough idling, jam the piston causing the roller to stick at a skewed angle and really wearing out the cam which sends out big ol bits of metal that clog the intake valve of the pump and clog the injectors completely stalling the car and costing oh about 10000 bucks to fix.
so bad fuel DOES cause this as it really gacks the lubricity.
Heat DOES cause this as it gacks the lubricity.
poor design leads this pump to be more fragile than it needs to be which is a shame because this fuel system concept is just so DARN COOL compared to the other ones I own
So I just wanted to sum up what I feel is going on here to see if this sounds right. I know no one knows for sure, and I don't visit here often but I own a 84 diesel rabbit, and a 01 cummins with the vp44 and we just bought a 09 wagon tdi with 34000 kms on it. I thought it was idling rough.
The hpfp is fed with plenty of fresh filtered fuel at about 63psi. I feed the vp44 with 20 psi and it is fine so lets assume that vw/bosch got this part right.
ulsd has a lubricity that is very close to the minimum recommendation from bosch to keep the hpfp happy. I think I read that a couple pages ago.
The piston on the hpfp is aloud to rotate freely in it's bore and has no design feature to prohibit this save...
the cam roller which rides on the cam without having a fixed position in regards to perfect cam/roller alignment except for when the cam lobe pushes the roller into alignment as it rides up on the compression strokes. The rest of the time the return spring pressure is supposed to do that.
The original pics showed alot of cam wear and since there are two lobes and since the roller shows less wear (but alot of galling) I shall conclude at this time that the vast majority of the metal found in the fuel system is from the cam lobes.
Since the roller can contact the cam at a skewed angle relative to the centerline of the cam the resulting friction between the cam and roller increase as the contact patch decreases with the increase of the skewed roller angle. (This was referred to as slippage in a previous post.)
If fuel lubricity is at a close tolerance with the MINIMUM requirements of the hpfp and no one at bosch has allowed for the amount of slippage and resultant increase in friction between the roller and cam then it might be possible (and I'm really going out on a limb here
)that the cam can wear sending out bits of metal which foul the roller, foul the injectors causing rough idling, jam the piston causing the roller to stick at a skewed angle and really wearing out the cam which sends out big ol bits of metal that clog the intake valve of the pump and clog the injectors completely stalling the car and costing oh about 10000 bucks to fix.so bad fuel DOES cause this as it really gacks the lubricity.
Heat DOES cause this as it gacks the lubricity.
poor design leads this pump to be more fragile than it needs to be which is a shame because this fuel system concept is just so DARN COOL compared to the other ones I own
umrpunter
Veteran Member
I got an email from VWOA today.
I clipped the rest, it was just about contacting them with further questions etc.
I do read into the article that they are deciding what to do. That is one positive note, all I want to know is are they going to issue a remedy (specify lubricant, recall/replace, etc) or are they going to let it be. That would help all of us get on with our decision making. I have faith that there is serious money already spent on the engineering analysis, and it's up to the accounting dept to decide the most beneficial course of action. Lets hope they count some value towards customer loyalty and satisfaction!
I clipped the rest, it was just about contacting them with further questions etc.
I do read into the article that they are deciding what to do. That is one positive note, all I want to know is are they going to issue a remedy (specify lubricant, recall/replace, etc) or are they going to let it be. That would help all of us get on with our decision making. I have faith that there is serious money already spent on the engineering analysis, and it's up to the accounting dept to decide the most beneficial course of action. Lets hope they count some value towards customer loyalty and satisfaction!
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Lightflyer1
Top Post Dawg
You got a typical non answer.
Jet mech
Member
woofie2
Veteran Member
BMW released the recall-
http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/10/Automotive-BMW-Recalling-150000-Vehicles/
maybe it's only a matter of time.
"BMW said the high-pressure fuel pump could fail on the vehicles and owners could experience long-crank engine starting times or reduced engine performance."
Pelican18TQA4
Veteran Member
I haven't experienced any issues with the HPFP in my car (knock on wood!), but I emailed ABC and mentioned that they might want to look into the VW TDI HPFPs, which are made by the same company that makes the BMW ones. I also mentioned that the VW TDI HPFPs that have failed have actually rendered the car undriveable and without warning, unlike the BMWs supposedly going into limp mode. I think more people should email ABC and perhaps they will expand their investigation to include the '09-up VW TDIs.