How accurate is group 13?

turbotorq

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My injectors are giving good values at idle and during a cruise, but I'm having similar to injector problems with my bew.

Could your readings in group 13 look good but have a leaking injector or injector 0-ring?

I replaced my injector harness to no avail
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Perhaps context would help, since "similar injector problems" doesn't tell anyone anything as to what problem you think you have.
 

turbotorq

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Perhaps context would help, since "similar injector problems" doesn't tell anyone anything as to what problem you think you have.
Sorry Brian, I should of been more discriptive.

Stumbling/ jerky rough idle ( you can feel it in the seat)
Raw fuel / white bellowing smoke on start up and during warm up
Cold start long cranking 8-10 seconds , but starts right up when warm

I checked under valve cover to find worn lifters and lobes

Replaced with colt cam stage 2 and new Ina lifters.

This upgrade did NOT fix my problem or help my issues at all.

Torsion is current +2 as of yesterday , advanced from the previous -0.5

Injector values look happy on group 13
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
What glow system version does it have? You may just need to update that. Or at the very least make sure the plugs match the software.

Next maybe suspect loss of fuel prime, but that typically would not cause much smoke once the engine is running.
 

turbotorq

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What glow system version does it have? You may just need to update that. Or at the very least make sure the plugs match the software.
Next maybe suspect loss of fuel prime, but that typically would not cause much smoke once the engine is running.
I have the latest glow plug recall done, I think they are the 7V ones. I know VW screwed up and went from 7V to 5V steels back to 7V. Surely glow plugs can't make that big of a difference when its 20 degrees above zero?

Loss of prime, I couldn't agree more, I actually installed a check valve post fuel filter, to no avail. Maybe I have the cv in the wrong spot.

Im thinking, a loss of prime due to air leak in fuel system and also maybe a leaking o ring on a injector. Ive ordered a full injector o ring kit from aarodriguez, I'm hoping this solves the raw fuel white smoke. I also replaced the injector harness, no difference.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I doubt the glow system is the issue either, but I always want to be sure these cars have all that correct, as that can cause some really screwy cold starts.... even when it isn't that "cold", as the afterglow system works pretty much all year round.

You may have a bad injector, too. White smoke that smells like fuel is a tell tale sign of incomplete or NO combustion, yet fuel is getting in somehow. If an injector is unable to stay sealed up, that is what happens. Unfortunately, with the PDs, injector service isn't as easy as on the VEs. Good news is, they are generally pretty good. But there is always that chance. Loss of fuel prime can also do a similar thing, in that there is not enough fuel in the system to allow the injectors to make proper pressure, so they cannot atomize the fuel correctly. This is why diesels put out a start up puff (some more than others), and worse when cold.

You may do this:

BEFORE you start the car cold, but when you know the issue is likely to happen, take the Mickey Mouse clip off the thermo-tee on the fuel filter, and look inside. See if it is still fuel of fuel (it should be, maybe not all the way to the top, but certainly "wet" inside). This will at least give you an indication of if the issue is a loss of fuel prime. You can try multiple key cycles, this will run the lift pump every time, to help reprime the system. You may also have a bad tandem pump that is bleeding over internally causing a loss of prime too.
 

turbotorq

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I checked the thermo tee the fuel filter is almost full, if not full. Tandem pump you say? Is there a way to test it? My performance and fuel economy is great. I heard on a thread awhile ago that a failing tandem pump can make a "squishy" sound when flicking the key to prime the fuel system. Squishy is a perfect way to describe that sound, almost as if primed fuel is forcing air out. Only at the first turn of the key though, second and third etc prime, all you hear is the fuel pump.

Bad injector ? Thats exactly why I started this thread, since my values are great in group 13, I was curious if that completely rules out a bad injector, or if group 13 doesn't accurately represent injector health.

If an injector was leaking would I see evidence of diesel diluting my oil?
 
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jasantos40

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What are you getting at group 13?

Group 13 only shows how much fuel is a injector delivering, above or bellow idle IQ, too keep the idle that the ECU requires. If the last burn was weak and dropped the idle a bit, next time it will increase fuel delivery to help maintain the idle. If it burn stronger that supposed to, it will cut a few mgs of fuel.

You gotta show us the injector deviation readings right from the start, while it's smoking.

8-10 secs cranking to start, I doubt that is just an injector problem, would make sense if it started right away but misfired.

Check tandem pump pressure.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
You really cannot go off cylinder balance numbers if you are dealing with an issue immediately after cold start.
 

turbotorq

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^^^ and let me also add, check your lift pump.
I had some rough idle and fuel/power inconsistencies too, before replacing my lift pump. All solved once replaced and never had to mess with injectors.

Sorry for late reply guys. I recently replaced my lift pump with a VDO unit and I'm pretty sure it's not the problem.

I will get back to you guys with exact numbers from group 13.
 

turbotorq

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You really cannot go off cylinder balance numbers if you are dealing with an issue immediately after cold start.

Could this be a compression issue? My power and fuel economy is great but my exhaust does smell oily. Could be a raw fuel smell? I'm using a bit of oil but it also could be a small leak.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Compression test wouldn't hurt, but it would need to be pretty bad to get the cold start results you are getting and I doubt it would improve that much so that it ran perfectly fine once warmed a bit.

I think you just have a flaky injector. I have had good luck with BG products, there are others too. Certainly worth a try.
 

jasantos40

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Again, show us the results of group 13 on start.

And you could do a cold compression test too.
 

turbotorq

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Again, show us the results of group 13 on start.

And you could do a cold compression test too.
Group 13

cyl 1 -0.35 mg/str
cyl 2 0.21 mg/str
cyl 3 0.24 mg/str
cyl 4 -0.09 mg/str

these readings were taken just seconds after the car started (after 6-8 seconds of cranking)
 

turbotorq

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Compression test wouldn't hurt, but it would need to be pretty bad to get the cold start results you are getting and I doubt it would improve that much so that it ran perfectly fine once warmed a bit.

I think you just have a flaky injector. I have had good luck with BG products, there are others too. Certainly worth a try.

I currently have pd150 injectors. But I also have 2 sets of PD100 injectors, one is the original set with about 140k miles on them and the other has about 110k. If your certain its the injectors I will swap them once I get my new seals from AA.

I also have another tandem pump with a lot less miles on it I could swap just to be sure. Could a fault lift pump give me these issues? My lift pump failed on me in a parking lot 20k ago. Replaced with a barely used VDO. After this I started running into hard start issues. I assumed one of my fuel lines was leaking air and letting the fuel run back to the tank. But I've checked and replaced & re clamped many connections to no avail.
 
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oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Just know that TDI injectors go bad if they sit, unless they were stored immersed in some type of oil or fuel. So you may be swapping one problem for another.
 

turbotorq

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Nothing really. The fuel injectors are still very much a mechanical device.

Well I'm going to go swap my tandem pump to see if that helps since group 13 claims my injectors are mint. If that doesn't work, Ill swap back my pd100 injectors. If that doesn't work I'm selling my PD.

But then again maybe not.
 

jasantos40

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Group 13
cyl 1 -0.35 mg/str
cyl 2 0.21 mg/str
cyl 3 0.24 mg/str
cyl 4 -0.09 mg/str
these readings were taken just seconds after the car started (after 6-8 seconds of cranking)
Those readngs prove that each injector doesn't have to adjust fuel delivery to keep the idle as requested.

Those 6-8 seconds of cranking must be, lift pump or tandem pump.

Lift pump has to deliver 3lts/min.

Tandem pump has a side port to connect a pressure gauge.
 

turbotorq

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Those readngs prove that each injector doesn't have to adjust fuel delivery to keep the idle as requested.
Those 6-8 seconds of cranking must be, lift pump or tandem pump.
Lift pump has to deliver 3lts/min.
Tandem pump has a side port to connect a pressure gauge.
So the lift pump has a VCDS test to check flow. How is this performed? I know the lift pump must be partially working because with a flick of the key the system primes and shoots out its 2 oz of diesel fuel.
 

jasantos40

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So the lift pump has a VCDS test to check flow. How is this performed? I know the lift pump must be partially working because with a flick of the key the system primes and shoots out its 2 oz of diesel fuel.
You could feed 12v to the pump, Or you could use that option on VCDS.
 

turbotorq

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I have a feeling its partially compression. I aimed my tdi down on a steep hill today. In first gear I could not get the engine to turn over. In second it would turn, one cylinder much easier then the other 3.
 

BobnOH

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Well I'm going to go swap my tandem pump to see if that helps since group 13 claims my injectors are mint. If that doesn't work, Ill swap back my pd100 injectors. If that doesn't work I'm selling my PD.

But then again maybe not.
Group 13 simply reports the amount the ECU adjusts fueling at each injector. It is not a complete diagnosis of their condition. That requires further, more complicated tests.
 

jasantos40

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If there was a compression problem in one cylinder, group 13 would show a high fuel delivery in the cylinder with low compression.

On an issue in just one cylinder, the engine starts but misfires.
 

turbotorq

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If there was a compression problem in one cylinder, group 13 would show a high fuel delivery in the cylinder with low compression.

On an issue in just one cylinder, the engine starts but misfires.

I have no misfiring codes. I actually don’t have any codes. So the tandem pump test, it had great return line fuel flow. Does this rule out the tandem pump for the starting issue or could it still have a loss of prime leak ? I have a spare LUK I could throw on but I don’t have the gasket for the opposite to camshaft side.
 

jasantos40

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I have no misfiring codes. I actually don’t have any codes. So the tandem pump test, it had great return line fuel flow. Does this rule out the tandem pump for the starting issue or could it still have a loss of prime leak ? I have a spare LUK I could throw on but I don’t have the gasket for the opposite to camshaft side.
You need to pressure test the tandem pump, theres a port on the side to connect a pressure gauge.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/PD_fuel_delivery_check.pdf
 
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