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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014)

VW MKVI-A6 Golf family including Jetta SportWagen (~ 2010-2014) Discussions area for A6/MkVI (2010-2014) Golf and Golf Wagons (Jetta Sportwagon in the USA).

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Old December 9th, 2012, 07:37   #1
busandcamper
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Location: Cambridge UK
Default Help diagnosing a P0087

So our 2009 UK spec started displaying some classic symptons you guys have seen before..

I purchased the car from a used car dealer and within days we had a 'would not start issue' even though the engine was warm, however, it starts fine next day. Our local main VW dealer diagnosed fuel contamination, said they could smell it, and then cleaned everything, flushed and put half a tank of diesel in it. I do not have the receipt for this as this was paid for by the used car dealer as a peace offering and to try and get to me accept the car. Thinking this is all good now, I agreed and took delivery back from the dealer, I also checked and there were no codes in the engine.

Just 3 days later my wife gets a limp home condition and flashing glow plug, she also described an audible buzzing sound from the engine bay, she drove home and parked. When I get to the car it starts and runs fine with no limp home displayed or other permanent message but VCDS shows
1 Fault Found:
000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure
P0087 - 000 - Too Low

I then drive 5 miles and I too get the limp home condition and as I have the laptop and VCDS with me I plug in, the pressures looked ok-ish, with the actual following the specified quite well. Logging the data I see the odd sample where the difference is -88 bar but on the whole the differences are seldom more than 20 bar. The buzzing sound is there and sounds like a fast whirring coming from the back left hand side of the engine as you look in.

I parked up for 5 days to read about what all this could mean - this forum has a LOT of technical info that has been great. I want to get the car to my local VW guy (an independant). The car starts perfect, all pressures looked good, the buzzing sound is gone too, so I then elect to drive 10 miles to the independant VW dealer - I logged the journey on VCDS to try and capture the limp home trigger point. Did not happen, nor did the buzzing sound, and my local guy is puzzled as the car behaves perfectly but has 2 limp home codes.

We're in diagnosis mode so they inspect the main filter to be perfect clean, the quantity regulator on the HPFP also spotless, the fuel tank lift pump is also super clean. So we have ruled out HPFP failure as there is no contamination/particles/debris etc. And besides it sounds like when they go - they go.

What could it be? The quantity regulator or the pressure regulator - to me the pressure regulator is on the right hand side on the end of the rail (correct?) and the quantity regulator is on the left front on the pump. Neither of these match the approximate location that time when we heard the noise.

What next? Gamble the pressure regulator at about $300 or the quantity regualtor (price unknown as yet)?

Anyone had one of these fail or a similar buzzing sound / failed component?

Appreciate some thoughts on this, and thank you for reading this far into a new guys first post - I normally hang out on the air cooled forums on other sites being a die hard VW guy. Regards.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:23   #2
2micron
 
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Welcome busandcamper! Another aircooled enthusiast, great news.
Another member here has recently experienced very similar conditions to your description. He is currently diagnosing the problem on his own, with input from others here.
Have a read through this, and hope it may help:


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=369958

You are right on at your descriptions and locations of the items you mention.
Sorry to hear about these issues, especially as you just got the car and haven't found out how wonderfull it really is!!
All the best,
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:39   #3
dweisel
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Just for a quick check. Look under the backseat to make sure the supply (black) and return (blue) fuel lines are on the proper connections on the fuel sending unit. If somehow,someway these lines get reversed. The car will still run but experience the problem you are having. Who knows what the past history is on a used car. Its worth a check just to verify that the fuel lines are installed correctly. This same condition has happened before when a careless VW Tech has reversed the fuel lines on the sending unit. If the lines are reversed at the lift pump it will cause the aux fuel pump under the hood to buzz.

Good luck,
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Last edited by dweisel; December 9th, 2012 at 10:42.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 13:22   #4
lt313
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Fuel Economy: 34 Ave per tank
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Hello busandcamper,
The buzzing noise could very well be the electric aux pump mounted near the engine. It would be great if you could post your logs so others can review. dweisel is correct about fuel lines being reversed. Once bought a diesel Ford Escort for $100.00 because the it would not stay running after a head gasket replacement. Turned out they had the supply and return lines reversed on the fuel pump causing the fuel to be aerated. Aerated fuel on a CR engine will take out the HPFP in no time due to lack of lubrication. On another post, a VW mech stated during his CR training it was noted that the P0087 code would be logged anytime there was a 150 bar diff between requested and actual. You can manually activate the fuel psi reg on the rail by quickly applying and removeing 12v. The reg will make a slight clicking sound. You shouldn't be able to hear the click sitting in the cab without the engine running and definitely not with the engine running. I do not have a repair manual at this time so I'm not sure if the aux fuel pump is powered through a relay. Relays can make alot of clicking/buzzing noise if shorted, bad connection or sometimes when failing.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 13:33   #5
lt313
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Fuel Economy: 34 Ave per tank
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Quick thought. Since you have vagcom have you manually turned on the elec fuel pumps to check for the noise? ---Basic Settings. Go to block 35 and select run fuel pump, press ON and it will run both the in tank and axillary fuel pumps.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 13:41   #6
2micron
 
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Hello IT313, glad you are back at it after a tough few weeks. Lift pump should be close to 12psi
Aux boost pump should be 62psi
Here is a link to some pressure numbers and testing from last spring.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=30

All the best,
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Old December 9th, 2012, 13:55   #7
lt313
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Fuel Economy: 34 Ave per tank
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Awesome write up!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your fuel filter system is first class. Now I understand the name 2micron.

I have been contemplating a small filter/screen for the return system in case of HPFP failure, but your setup blows anything I've thought up out of the water!

Thanks for leading the way.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 14:00   #8
busandcamper
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You mean post the log of the error code or the file or screen shot of the log. Is there a way to attach files to this forum or do I use my own hosting? Anyway this is the P0087 - I found it odd the date got reported as waaay in the future;

Address 01: Engine (CBA) Labels: 03L-906-022-CBA.clb
Part No SW: 03L 906 022 LA HW: 03L 906 022 G
Component: R4 2,0L EDC G000SG 6172
Revision: 13H01--- Serial number:
Coding: 0001072
Shop #: WSC 01357 011 00200
VCID: 6FED6F877E641660C8F

1 Fault Found:
000135 - Fuel Rail/System Pressure
P0087 - 000 - Too Low
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 93207 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2104.14.03
Time: 15:57:33

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 2093 /min
Inj. Quantity: 44.2 mg/str
(no units): 5.0
Pressure: 1272.0 bar
Pressure: 976.0 bar
Temperature: 45.0C
Tank Cont.: 24.4 l

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0

So we checked the fuel lines and they look correctly attached at both the tank end and the aux fuel pump end. We have not checked the lines are correct inside the tank lift pump assembly - cold these be wrong?

We're looking at putting a replacement aux fuel pump in, and are going on the following part number 5N0 906 129 B, runs to about 100 GBP new. We'll clean through the screen at the temp sensor too which is in the line connecting the aux pump to the HPFP.

Thank you for your help thus far.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 13:42   #9
busandcamper
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As an update, we replaced the aux fuel pump at a cost of 240 + 1 hour and we didn't afford the time to measure the fuel pressures before the change and after. We've only done a few 10's of miles on the car since the changeout but so far so good - no codes or repeats so far.

Does the ECU have any spare inputs that are hooked up enough that we could use them for logging through VCDS? I realise diverting one of the main pressure sensors to this line would trigger all sorts of codes but if there was only a way to log while driving without going to the trouble of hooking up my innovate motorsports logger as I dont have an OBD11 cable or a 0-100psi range pressure sensor..

AL
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Old December 30th, 2012, 13:29   #10
busandcamper
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Another update, all a little frustrating really.

Driving the car today I notice the buzzing sound again, but no limp home (yet) so we pull onto the drive and pop the hood. The buzz is quite loud and is coming from the vibration in the fuel line that connects the output of the aux pump to the HPFP and as you move the line the sound can be affected.

To me the vibration feels quite excessive and is harsh enough to transmit into the frame of the aux pump causing the noise. You can hold the fuel line but it will fatigue your fingers after a while - about 3-5mm of movement suggesting a lot of energy is going into creating this vibration.

Being a brand new pump with less than 50 miles on it I dont suspect it, but to rule it out I ran the block 35 pumps and there was no noise / vibration - just a nice genlte whir.

We were low on fuel so we drove to the nearest garage (about 4 miles) and put 3/4 tank of Shell v power just in case its level related. We logged some channels during a full throttle blast on the way home but to be honest the high pressure side all looks ok to me. Thoughts or suggestions?

This is the log file
http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...olf6issue.xlsx

This is the autoscan results from the last 2 months.
http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...KZ9W470687.txt

And in case thats not allowed some screenshots;
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Old December 30th, 2012, 15:06   #11
2micron
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busandcamper View Post
Another update, all a little frustrating really.

Driving the car today I notice the buzzing sound again, but no limp home (yet) so we pull onto the drive and pop the hood. The buzz is quite loud and is coming from the vibration in the fuel line that connects the output of the aux pump to the HPFP and as you move the line the sound can be affected.

To me the vibration feels quite excessive and is harsh enough to transmit into the frame of the aux pump causing the noise. You can hold the fuel line but it will fatigue your fingers after a while - about 3-5mm of movement suggesting a lot of energy is going into creating this vibration.

Being a brand new pump with less than 50 miles on it I dont suspect it, but to rule it out I ran the block 35 pumps and there was no noise / vibration - just a nice genlte whir.

We were low on fuel so we drove to the nearest garage (about 4 miles) and put 3/4 tank of Shell v power just in case its level related. We logged some channels during a full throttle blast on the way home but to be honest the high pressure side all looks ok to me. Thoughts or suggestions?

This is the log file
http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...olf6issue.xlsx

This is the autoscan results from the last 2 months.
http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...KZ9W470687.txt

And in case thats not allowed some screenshots;
Hello bus/camper! We all understand your frustrations! So far, you and IT313 have diagnosed and helped us all understand this system better, cheers to bot of you!
The crazy experiments I have been up to with extra long lines, flow meters and gauges sometimes a produce very loud "pig squeal" sound and quite a vibration, similar to your description. For me, this is air in the lines. I literally have to beat the rubber lines with a wrench - (spanner for you!) to purge and bleed the air out, while the pumps are running. Then let it sit for a couple of minutes, then do it again.
Takes a couple of cycles, but it does clear.
Possible this may be your noise and vibration?
Hope this helps!
Cheers! Updated- the air in my lines does not come back again after a thorough bleed/purge.

Last edited by 2micron; December 30th, 2012 at 15:11. Reason: Add - last line.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 10:21   #12
busandcamper
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So we have another clue.

This morning with renewed enthusiasm I re-checked the electronic valve on top of the pump but all was clean - no debris or contamination. Ok so back together and ran the 0035 pumps twice in their cycle and really worked that feed hose - tapping and bending etc. On startup of the engine there is no buzz/whine sound and the feed pipe to the HPFP is smooth and not bussing like crazy. Okaaay but I don't get the feeling I fixed anything.

A quick drive around the local town to get some heat into the car - took laptop with me logging the high pressure side again. Drove for about 20 minutes tops and on return nothing, no noise or buzz and the feed pipe smooth. Nothing noteworthy in the log file either.

I'm dreading the next long journey - we've made 2 long journeys since purchase and both times have led to a buzz - the 1st long journey led to the P0087 and the second journey was long enough to make a buzz but only in the last 5 minutes of the trip.

So how about a diagnosis that says when on a drive for longer than say 40 minutes the HPFP goes into some sort of state whereby it vibrates that feed line like crazy leading to the buzzing sound. After cool down all is well.

I'm contemplating a pre-emptive change of the HPFP - I'm assuming its not timed so would it be possible for a competent mechanic - is there a 'how to' somewhere on this or do i need an array of tools like belt locks and pins etc. I have pullers and an array of Hazet tools but nothing specialised - i normally work on air cooled cars.

Thoughts / suggestions? Thank chaps you for your help thus far in this issue,

And Happy New Year to y'all.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 10:49   #13
2micron
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by busandcamper View Post
So we have another clue.

This morning with renewed enthusiasm I re-checked the electronic valve on top of the pump but all was clean - no debris or contamination. Ok so back together and ran the 0035 pumps twice in their cycle and really worked that feed hose - tapping and bending etc. On startup of the engine there is no buzz/whine sound and the feed pipe to the HPFP is smooth and not bussing like crazy. Okaaay but I don't get the feeling I fixed anything.

A quick drive around the local town to get some heat into the car - took laptop with me logging the high pressure side again. Drove for about 20 minutes tops and on return nothing, no noise or buzz and the feed pipe smooth. Nothing noteworthy in the log file either.

I'm dreading the next long journey - we've made 2 long journeys since purchase and both times have led to a buzz - the 1st long journey led to the P0087 and the second journey was long enough to make a buzz but only in the last 5 minutes of the trip.

So how about a diagnosis that says when on a drive for longer than say 40 minutes the HPFP goes into some sort of state whereby it vibrates that feed line like crazy leading to the buzzing sound. After cool down all is well.

I'm contemplating a pre-emptive change of the HPFP - I'm assuming its not timed so would it be possible for a competent mechanic - is there a 'how to' somewhere on this or do i need an array of tools like belt locks and pins etc. I have pullers and an array of Hazet tools but nothing specialised - i normally work on air cooled cars.

Thoughts / suggestions? Thank chaps you for your help thus far in this issue,

And Happy New Year to y'all.
Happy New Year and your work this this morning is very encouraging! No visual contamination in the Metering valve on top of the HPFP is always good news.
After you removed the air in the hose by a longer then normal bleed and vigorously working the hose, the noise and vibration is gone. Good news!
Drive on and monitor the noise.
If it comes back, try one more vigorous bleed, even when the car is idling.
If it comes back again, air must be generating somehow between the feed pump and boost pump.
Try it again, go on your drive, enjoy it!
I have had the same noise and vibrations before, (but with much longer hoses, gauges and flow meters installed) but always perform a longer than normal bleed cycle and work the hose, to get the air out, same noise is gone.
Good work, don't get frustrated!
All the best!
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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:43   #14
busandcamper
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Ok, good news and bad news.

The bad news is the problem is not fixed - I'm getting P0087 almost on demand now. It only takes a long journey to get it to trigger.

The good news, if you can call it that, I was able to capture these events on VCDS.

Armed with laptop I went on a long drive, waiting for the buzz, sure enough after about 40 minutes I could hear it. So pull over and boot up the VCDS and log HPFP values. More driving, maybe 10 minutes more, and I got a limp home condition, so i pulled over stopped logging, clear the code then drive 500 yards trigger again, choose a different group of logging, clear codes and drive 500 yards to trigger it. There has to be more clues in this data - this is where I need another pair of eyes on the data. Please help me analyse the log files.

What I have observed so far, my fuel temperature seems high, the first CEL was at 58 deg C and the last one at 85 deg C. Once in this temperature zone I get regular control pressure deviations, the 2 miles home I counted 4 in the data.

The next observation is this is now the same as lt313 with drops in actual fuel pressure in the 1-2 second region that triggers the CEL/MIL.

Reading his post, and then a few by specsalot I'm heading towards either a pump on the way out OR a compromised fuel overflow valve as suggested by dwiesel to lt313.

I loaded the excel files, and a screen shot - these should appear in this post next;

There are 4 log files each with a different set of logged channels. Error codes were cleared after each occurence as I did not turn off the engine.
In chronological order;

http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...8-20F-218.xlsx

http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...OG-01-21F.xlsx

http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...F-208-218.xlsx

http://www.busandcamper.com/images/t...E-071-193.xlsx


This excel graph shows the P0087 low fuel trigger event, the data at 7 Hz or so, quite detailed, just one of the analysis graphs in the excel files above;



Where I need the help is in locating this (curtesy dwiesel);



As my engine bay looks like this (curtesy specsalot), now I see where the purple line comes out of the HPFP but I dont see the valve that dwiesel is talking about? Help..


Last edited by busandcamper; January 5th, 2013 at 10:46.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 08:30   #15
busandcamper
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OK, so I did a little tear down investigation work this morning.
The roller looks ok



The top valve was clean


But the diesel in the pump looks cloudy - is this water contamination? The quantity valve also had this cloudiness - I thought maybe its extreme aeration following the hot fuel and multiple loss of pressures yesterday. What do you guys think?


And on closer inspection there is a slight scuff mark on the piston;


And maybe the corresponding mark on the inside of the body;



I could not safely get to the overflow valve that I wanted to, I challenge anyone to actually take that out with the pump in the car.

So I have some unanswered questions;

1. Is my fuel temperature a clue?
2. Does that look like the piston siezing and could this be my loss of pressure?
3. Is that fuel correct with the cloudy nature to it?
4. What do I do next?
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