Now that the Gen 1 fix is out: Contemplating the Gen 3 for Gen 1 swap

toneman

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Location
norcal
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2011 JSW
This is to hear folks' thinking about keeping their Gen 1's vs picking up a 2015 2.0 TDI from the warranty standpoint and other considerations. For me, the emissions warranty is a big factor for staying in a TDI. Here's my situation:

My Gen 1:
2011 JSW (manual) with 47k miles
Fix warranty would extend to 2021.5 & 126k miles or 2021 & 111k miles
(plus I get the restitution $ to play with)

Compared to if I got a 2015 with a real example. There's a local S with a manual transmission with 29k miles going for $18,500, certified used (well below my buyback amount).
Fix warranty for the 2015 would extend to 2026 & 162k miles.

I flip/flop but lean toward shorter warranty and the cash. But I might continue the waiting game to see how prices on the 2015s go over the next year.

So the calculus in my head is about 5 years of additional warranty vs. ~$6k in restitution money.

Other considerations is that with the 2015 I would need to lay out cash for window tint, lowered suspension, a new oem roof rack, factory nav, fog lights, and Ed's replica lights to bring it up to spec with my 2011. And then there's the lack of heated seats.
 

conejo_a_cuatro

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TDI
2001 Golf GLS Silver, 2011 JSW Manual - Bought Back. Now 328d Wagon.
That's sort of odd advice, isn't it, since the HPFP is covered under the new warranty?
 

showdown 42

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naples,FL
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2016 TDI touareg
Check out the news on the gen1 fix. Now it is suppose to be happening. Don't do anything until you check out that info.
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
That's sort of odd advice, isn't it, since the HPFP is covered under the new warranty?
1. A new Gen 3 will have a longer warranty on it (measured from today/near future) than the extension of the warranty on a "fixed" Gen 1.

2. The Gen 3 uses solenoid injectors with a slightly lower operating pressure (same as Gen 2 - Passat) and the Passat's rate of HPFP self-destructions seems to be lower than that of Gen 1.

3. The original poster's Gen 1 - if the HPFP hasn't already been replaced - is one of the early ones before Bosch started making unannounced/undocumented design changes to them.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Drive a Gen 3 and see what you prefer. I like my MKVII GSW much more than my MKVI Golf, but that's me. You may feel different. Given the relatively low miles on your current car you probably should just keep (or buy) the one you like better.
 

turbobrick240

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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I like IBW' s advice best. A test drive should give a good idea of what you prefer. If it's a draw after the test drive, I'd stick with the one you have.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
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Location
Gresham, OR
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2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
A couple things to ponder with this particular decision:

If you're long in the torso like myself, the mk6 has more head room. I kind of like the interior layout a bit better on the mk6 for a couple other minor reasons as well.

The Gen 1 engine is also far simpler with far less potential failure points than the mk7. The exhaust system is even more complicated on the Gen 3, the cooling system is immensely complex with multiple computer controlled flaps as well as an electrically operated sheath to cover the water pump impeller during warm up to help aid making warm up faster--dealer guys have already seen that sheath fail and cause the engine to overheat.

It also has a computer duty cycle controlled variable displacement oil pump, vane style. The intake manifold has an air-water intercooler integrated into it, which is great for preventing intercooler icing like the gen 1s experience, but it makes it far more of a task to service anything under the intake. But hey, at least it no longer has the failure-prone runner flaps the gen 1 does.

The bonus on the Gen 3 is the longer warranty, as you stated, a smidge more power, flatter torque curve that extends higher into the RPM range. It also is not insignificantly more efficient at highway speeds. Where gen 1 engines might average 42-45 MPG, the Gen 3 will knock on the door and even exceed 50 MPG. All that trick cooling system stuff and duty cycle controlled oil pump do help significantly.

The solenoid injectors are also easier to deal with and cheaper than the piezos the gen 1s came with, not that it should matter if you never experience a failure...

From a serviceability standpoint (since I do my own work) and for headroom reasons, I'd personally go for the Gen 1 sportwagen. But that gen 3 is still tempting just for the increased efficiency alone.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Oklahoma
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2015 VW Golf S DSG Silver
this is to hear folks' thinking about keeping their gen 1's vs picking up a 2015 2.0 tdi from the warranty standpoint and other considerations.



For me, the emissions warranty is a big factor for staying in a tdi. Here's my situation:


2015 gen 3
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I have a slight preference for the rounder lines of the mk6. They are both great looking cars imo though.
 

toneman

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Joined
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Location
norcal
TDI
2011 JSW
Great points up there -- thanks.

IBW - a test drive makes sense. The trick is finding a manual nearby. The torque curve is probably what I enjoy most about my car, especially paired with its efficiency.

Matt - super info about the relevant technical differences between Mk6 and Mk7. VW TDIs are a case in point that increased complexity can coincide with increased maintenance/reliability problems. I've had zero problems thus far so maybe I got a good Mk6 that will have a long life. That said, I wish I lived closer to your shop.

But a warranty til 2021 is real security.

Other considerations:

Although my car has less than 50k miles on it, I both got rear-ended and received a front-end minor bump while parked in the past year and a half. I got the rear end fixed and just cashed out for the front end damage while I was waiting to hear about the Gen 1 fix. Accidents have a way making your car feel compromised and buyback is an easy way to move a car with a 2 accident record.

Starting from scratch, mod-wise. On the one hand, it's fun to have a new project, on the other, it will be net more $ spent than if dieselgate never happened. I love the way my car is setup now.





Lastly, rather than saving the $6k in restitution dollars in a rainy day TDI fund, I could use it on home repairs or better yet, rebuilding the 327 in my '67 RS.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
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Location
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TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Can't say I ever remember seeing a sportwagen with the xenon lights.

Very nice!
 

mbehensky

Member
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May 28, 2015
Location
Soquel, CA
TDI
2005 Passat TDI wagon. Mercedes 240D, 300D2.5 Turbo, 87 300TD
Gen 3 JSW rear suspension worse?

As I remember back from 2015 when I was deciding if I wanted to buy a 2015 JSW new, the 2015 model went to the cheaper rear suspension used on the Jetta sedan instead of the fully independent rear suspension available on the JSW up to 2014. They kept the fully independent rear on the gasser, so there was speculation that they did this to get room to install the urea tank.

This was a major reason I chose to buy a used 2010 JSW instead in July of 2015. I really LOVED the handling on that car (it might have helped that a previous owner had put GTI wheels and tires on it). Boy was I bummed when the dieselgate scandal broke 2 months after I bought the car. I took the buyback (got lucky and made $5k over my purchase price). I would consider buying a fixed gen1, although I am worried about HPFP problems.

You might want to look into this before you buy the 2015.
 

GoFaster

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Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
I betcha 95+% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in ride and handling between IRS and twist-beam, probably wouldn't even know what to look for, and even in the remaining 5%, it's a non-issue 95+% of the time.

Just take a test drive and see what you think.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
I betcha 95+% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in ride and handling between IRS and twist-beam, probably wouldn't even know what to look for, and even in the remaining 5%, it's a non-issue 95+% of the time.

Just take a test drive and see what you think.
Probably right. Not everyone drives like me :D

I could DEFINITELY tell the difference with the early mk6 Jetta sedans that got the awful straight beam, though. At least the mk7 is a proper twist beam again, which can deflect quite a lot acting somewhat IRS-like. I have no issue with a well designed twist beam, but that straight beam the early sedans and Beetles got weren't too great riding.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I betcha 95+% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in ride and handling between IRS and twist-beam, probably wouldn't even know what to look for, and even in the remaining 5%, it's a non-issue 95+% of the time.
Absolutely agree. I drove my '12 Golf and a then new '15 Golf back to back on the same route and the only time I could tell a difference in steering response was throwing it into a onramp at 70 MPH. And then all I felt was a little rear wheel steering in the '12.

I've never had any problem with the twist beam axle, on the road or the race track.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Twist beam can be pretty decent. The Renault megane has one. I can imagine the outrage if VW tried to refit the gti with one though.
 

740GLE

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Aug 19, 2009
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NH
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2015 Passat SEL, 2017 Alltrack SE; BB 2010 Sedan Man; 2012 Passat,
I betcha 95+% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in ride and handling between IRS and twist-beam, probably wouldn't even know what to look for, and even in the remaining 5%, it's a non-issue 95+% of the time.

Just take a test drive and see what you think.
Agreed but they will def tell the difference between the sound deadening and regidity of the Mk5/6 vs M7.

Mk7 is miles beyond the Mk5/6 and worth every penny, they did wonders with the MBQ platform.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Agreed but they will def tell the difference between the sound deadening and regidity of the Mk5/6 vs M7.

Mk7 is miles beyond the Mk5/6 and worth every penny, they did wonders with the MBQ platform.
Inches beyond, imo. And not in the golf tdi rear suspension department. I think most of us are biased toward whatever car we own or are most attached to.
 
Last edited:

toneman

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norcal
TDI
2011 JSW
The loss of IRS doesn't bother me as much as the loss of heated seats, as far as everyday driving is concerned (I'd need an S to avoid the pano).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I drove my MKVII 350 miles today (2,200 on the car) and I agree it's miles ahead of the MKVI in sound deadening, body stiffness, and build quality. The MKIV was better than a MKVI. The MKVII is better than the MKIV. There, I said it.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
The only mk7 I've driven is a gti, and it was very nice. I know it's probably heresy to speak badly of the mk4 here, but the ones I have driven are no comparison to my mk6. Way more flex, and much worse build quality, imo. Maybe they were abused , idk. I'm a fan of IRS and also two doors, so the mk6 golf tdi has that going for it. Flame suit on. :)
 

toneman

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norcal
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2011 JSW
I STILL need to drive a Mk7. My Mk4 and B5 Passat were wonderful cars but the interiors didn't hold up like my Mk5/6 JSW is, and unmodified handled much worse.
 

Rico567

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Central IL
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This thread is one of the best examples I've seen of "-different strokes." There's always a tendency in forums for some posters to lump everyone into their situation, and that's rarely true. Money owed on a loan, changing family vehicle requirements, the degree of customization in one's current vehicle that one desires to match in a new one.....the list goes on and on.
What jumps out of this thread for me -as it has for so many other threads- is something I failed to appreciate before we bought our Passat. This is our first diesel, and my desire to try one was based on a friend's long-time ownership of Mercedes diesels, going back to the old 220D. Well, as many people on this forum have pointed out, the virtues of the old-school diesels have been offset by the immense complexity needed to meet current emissions standards— in fact we wouldn't be writing in this thread if it were not for the complexity and fragility of the CR diesel.
Unlike a number of people, we have no affinity for any particular car, whether it runs on D2, gasoline, or rubber bands. So my conclusion, which is valid for me, is to just shrug, mark our five years of diesel ownership as a car we liked, and go back to burning gasoline.
 

RNDDUDE

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Well, I bought my Gen 1 diesel and maintained it with a mind to drive it until maintenance costs got too high. The only mods have been taller 18" wheels/tires to somewhat offset the DSG's final drive ratio, and religious use of Dieselkleen with every fillup. I do scheduled maintenance per the manual. Car has been flawless so far, is paid for, I will be getting it emission fixed and get some $$$'s and a much longer warranty that I never expected when I bought it. Why in the world would I get rid of it?
 

toneman

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norcal
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2011 JSW
Once the fixes start, we're sure to start seeing at least a handful of fixed gen 1's for private sale and it will be interesting to see how well the value holds. I'm guessing it will be looking pretty good, a factor to keep 'em.
 

Mike in Anchorage

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Has anyone gotten the fix done yet to report on any effect? Power, sense of torque, fuel usage, fun of drivability? I haven't even heard yet - will there be an add-on urea tank?
 

DieselMann99

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Westchester County NY
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Just to clarify . . . does the MK VII designation apply to 2015 Jetta's or just Golf's?
 
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