04 PD with smoke, misfire and low power

Hi everyone,
I have a 2004 Jetta Wagon TDI, automatic, with 264k miles. I've only had the car 3 years, but I believe it's been maintained ok. New timing belt was installed 7k miles ago, less than a year.
A couple months ago I had a brief no-start that cleared itself up after sitting a few minutes and cranking, and thereafter I felt like it was running a bit rough and slow and shifting badly. Then on a long trip while heavily loaded the car became totally gutless and vibrated, sometimes violently, when the rpms were in the 1500-2500 range. A bit after that I noticed that it was blowing black smoke, particularly right after downshifting to accelerate or going up a hill with the rpms in that medium-low range. I got a CEL and read the code: P0101.
I replaced the air filter, fuel filter, and the MAF. Car still had the same problems, but the code didn't come back.
I took it to a shop, where they discovered that the intake was clogged with "about a pinky finger diameter" left clear. The shop cleaned the intake manifold, the air openings in the head, the anti-shudder valve and the EGR cooler. Now they report that it is running "better," but still gutless, blowing smoke and "misfiring," by which I think they mean the strong shaking under load.
They've verified that the cam looks good, checked that the turbo is building boost (reached 2.2 bar, they said) and they measured the correct amount of back pressure, I think by putting a gauge where the O2 sensor is, so it seems like not a stuck turbo, boost leak or plugged cat. They checked that the EGR works correctly with vacuum, out of the car on a bench.
The shop says I could probably use a new glowplug harness and the O2 sensor in the exhaust was toast, but neither they nor me think that could cause these symptoms.
Does anyone have an idea where to go from here? The shop seems a bit stumped by a car that drives this badly without throwing any codes. Could it be a worn out injector harness?

Sounds like a boost leak to me. I had the same P0101 DTC when my lower hose popped off the intercooler. Lots of black smoke and no power until the short hose was replaced by me.

But could it have a boost leak that made it really slow without causing low MAP readings or a code? The P0101 code has not come back since I replaced the MAF and cleared it, and the MAP readings seem ok.

You need to get it fully scanned with VCDS before throwing any more parts or services at it.


While VCDS is hooked up you can log boost, MAF/MAP sensors, injector deviation, timing, etc...

Block 13 shows cylinders 1 and 4 too high, about 2.4, while middle two are bouncing around in the negatives never more extreme than -1. That seems bad. Could it still be the harness? It has the right resistance but I cling to the hope that it could be the connections. What value should be seen in Block 13 if the harness loses contact with the injector?

Could injectors 1 and 4 be plugged or dirty? It's crazy, the car idles and revs in neutral really smoothly now since the intake cleaning. You can't tell anything is wrong until you get it above 1300 rpm with a load.

Also, it may be my imagination but it seems like the exhaust is heating up a lot more than it used to from a short drive.

The mechanic thinks maybe the next step should be to run it off a jug of 50/50 lube moly and diesel and see if that helps, but I've already filled the tank once since these symptoms started, so I don't think the current fuel is the problem and I'm worried about running that high a concentration of cleaner through the fuel pump. What should I do? I've got the car back in my driveway now and have a little time to think about it this week.

I've been reading as much as I can on these forums and I can't find any case quite like this. Should I pull out the injectors and bring them to a specialist diesel shop to be tested? Should I order a new harness and try it because that's only about $140? What are the chances this can be the harness, vs. dirty nozzles vs. faulty injectors? I'm feeling stumped and trying to avoid just throwing parts at it or making it worse by trying questionable cleaning procedures.

I have always appreciated this site for it's wealth of knowledge and I can't wait to write up and post when I finally get a resolution. For now though I really need help.

Before you go out and spend obese amounts of dollars. Check your boost hoses. The top hose that goes into the egr is a know problem area. Is that hose sitting square or is it angled downward? If it’s angled it’s loose, a common fix is called the dog collar.

Next check down behind the passenger side tire the clip system of connections that the Pd engine employs while I can see why they were used they do wear out. After they wear out the clips don’t hold the pipes tight and they come loose. Examine both sides of your intercooler behind the headlight and behind the fender liner.

If those connections are tight follow the pipe to your turbo, making certain that all the clips are seated and the pipes are tight.

What does your ultragauge show for boost when you’re in 5th gear cruising on flat level highway at about 60?

Good point, sorry my post last night got deleted while I was writing it and I accidemtallynleft out details from my last conversation with the mechanic. MAP seems normal (gets up to 2.2 bars when accelerating) and he smoke-tested for boost leaks. Do you know what the block 13 would read if that injector just wasn't making contact with the harness?

I've now had the injectors restored by KermaTDI, with new nozzles and calibration. The mechanic called me today to report that it runs worse now, on three cylinders at idle. What is wrong with this car?

I have read that on a PD engine if the injectors are replaced the injector harness is often damaged. Not because of poor practice but because it just gets brittle and can’t take any movement. This is the harness inside the cam cover that goes to the big connector by the tandem pump on the transmission end of the engine.

If the mechanic really meant the glowplugs harness was bad I think that is a red herring. 30 seconds after the car is started the glowplugs have nothing to do with the way it runs and in Seattle you don’t really need glowplugs at all. I’ve had a bad harness for years and when it’s cold, 0 F or so, it starts a bit rough and smoky.

Irrespective, I think your initial description could be of an engine with not enough and maybe uneven airflow into the cylinders. I know the mechanic said the cam is ok but maybe double check. Those off kilter group 13 values often are reported to be caused by a bad cam.

How was the engine running at full power and 3500 to 4000 rpm after the intake was cleaned? You only describe what was happening at pretty low revs, the turbo won’t really get to full boost until near 3000 rpm, at least mine doesn’t when accelerating. It doesn’t really start making boost until 1500, so if there was a problem at 1300 I’m not sure what that information means.

When I had a small boost leak the engine was a little rough 1500 to 2500 then smoothed out at higher revs. It wasn’t bad though, I drove that way for months before realizing something was wrong. I guess I’m saying your description doesn’t sound like a boost leak to me.

Did anyone check your snow screen? Was a Bosch MAF used when that was replaced?

For the benefit of those following along at home (all two of you!)...

The snow screen was checked at the start of this fiasco, and the MAF I put in was from idparts.com, Huco brand. The injector wiring harness has been checked and rechecked.

The symptoms are quite different now than what they were before I had the injectors rebuilt, and until they are resolved it's not possible to tell if the original problem has been fixed. Just to recap, before the injectors were removed it started and idled fine, but ran poorly under load, misfiring in the 1500-2500 rpm range. Cylinders 1 and 4 showed super high Block 13 values, but there was no CEL.

Now, after the injector work, it is running on 3 cylinders, i.e. idling horribly, and has a code showing that Cylinder 4 is doing nothing. Block 13 values show Cylinder 4 requesting really high numbers. It is running so rough that the other numbers just jump around a lot.

Through the glow plug opening it was apparent that no fuel at all was being injected. Switching the suspected injector from cylinder 4 to 3 moved the problem, ruling out the wiring harness. So the solenoid on a freshly rebuilt injector now doesn't work. Do I have great luck or what?

edited to add: I'm holding onto a faint hope that that injector just needs its connector cleaned, but I'm probably (obviously?) not that lucky.

Post the solution when you find it. The injector obviously doesn’t work, sometimes these cars can be frustrating.

You have over 700 views so more than two are wondering what the solution is.

Any solution to your problem/s?
Been watching this thread, wish I had some ideas for you.

logos said:

Block 13 shows cylinders 1 and 4 too high, about 2.4, while middle two are bouncing around in the negatives never more extreme than -1. That seems bad. Could it still be the harness? It has the right resistance but I cling to the hope that it could be the connections. What value should be seen in Block 13 if the harness loses contact with the injector?

Click to expand...

If the plug on each injector is stretched open a bit it could cause a loose connection.
Throw in engine heat and vibration and it could be the problem.

Can you log block 13 at 1800 RPM for several seconds with the motor hot?

Smoke, misfire, injectors, hard start

Hi,

Black smoke, miss:
Our BEW had a intake cam lobe fail on first run of Amsoil European blend. They claim 505.01 spec, however not a single Amsoil product on the VW list. The car started, ran fine, push the diesel peddle down and black smoke, a miss like you pulled one plug wire on a gas 4 cylinder. Replaced cam with Franko Cam. Running Schaeffer 9000 5W40 for 150k miles, oil tests, least amount of wear that I have seen in many UOA reports. Running for 20k miles with filter change at 10k, with 1 quart.

No start, hard start:
Multiple PD cars, crank sensor failure. I could move the wires and cause a miss. Had a new one with VW/Audi label from Autozone $73, failed in a few weeks. Order less expensive $18 from Rockauto from Europe and still running strong! Order 2, keep an extra in the car. 9 mm, 12 point socket needed. Easy to change.

Injectors:
New injectors installed through Kerma may be performed by DBW, I had issues with mine directed by DBW. Replaced with Bosch rebuilt units. Note a X in the VW part number means rebuilt.

Sorry that I dropped off the thread briefly, I really appreciate everyone's help. Believe it or not the saga is still ongoing. Kerma eventually got a 4th injector to me here (Anchorage, not Seattle anymore. I didn't get around to changing my profile since we just moved in July.)

As of last Wednesday, with 4 newly rebuilt injectors, brand new nozzles on them and a cleaned intake, the car ran... just like it did in July. Good start and good idle, bad misfire under load that shakes the whole car, black smoke. Another delay ensued.

Today, the mechanic sent me a picture of wear on the intake lobe #3 on the camshaft. So congratulations to Wilkins and FastEddie10 for predicting that. I wish you had been working on my car.

I can only speak for the 3 years we've had it, but I think we've always used the right spec oil. Last oil change a year ago was Pentosin 5w40 HP2. 267k miles on a camshaft seems ok for an '04 BEW, based on a quick search of the forums.

But as I wrote in my first post, I was told in July that they had checked the cam right at the start, and I wouldn't have sent the injectors off to be rebuilt if I hadn't been under the impression that the camshaft looked fine. It seems there was a misunderstanding and probably in July they had only checked the cam lobes that operate the injectors, not the intake cams. Whatever the cause of the misunderstanding, I think they are embarrassed that they didn't get this earlier and are going to try and make it right and drop some of the labor charges. Of course they can't get a replacement camshaft until next week. I'm told it will be an OEM VW one.

So that's where things stand now. Stay tuned to see if that finally produces a working car again. I don't like that the camshaft job and the timing reset, with only about 7k miles since the last belt replacement, will now be done by a shop that is probably losing money on me and frustrated to be still working on this car, but hopefully they feel like it's a chance to rescue their reputation and they take some pains to get it right.

I also wonder how fast the camshaft wear happened. Did the shop that did my timing belt a year ago in WA miss a chance to nip this in the bud, or is it possible it looked fine then and wore through into the softer metal in less than 10k miles?

logos said:

They checked that the EGR works correctly with vacuum, out of the car on a bench.

Click to expand...

On a BEW engine?
It is not operated with vacuum...totally electrical.
Do you mean the the valve will seal well enough to hold a vacuum?

Care to elaborate?

When changing a BEW belt the valve cover does not need to come off, so maybe it didn’t.

My cam had 5 of 8 lobes at various stages of wear at 282k. I bought the cat at 141k and I always used the right oil, I think ultimately it was just a weak design.

JETaah said:

On a BEW engine?
It is not operated with vacuum...totally electrical.
Do you mean the the valve will seal well enough to hold a vacuum?

Care to elaborate?

Click to expand...

That is what the mechanic I was speaking with told me in July. I took it to mean making the valve switch with vacuum, like the ALH, because I didn't know that BEWs use an electrical valve. So I'm afraid I can't elaborate, but I'm guessing it's another case of their communicating mechanic not being the one who actually did the work.

I have the car back now and it runs pretty well, so I would say that the cause of the smoke and misfire was indeed a worn camshaft. It turns out that the worn intake lobe also managed to put a hole in the lifter it contacted, which probably accelerated the wear after it had those edges to scrape against. Thanks to everyone for their comments.

I thought with a cleaned out intake, fresh new cam and refurbished injectors with new DLC-800 nozzles the car would feel night-and-day faster than before it developed the misfire in July, but it doesn't. Compared to early summer, it's a bit smoother and free-revving, maybe a bit faster, but just... ok. Perhaps it was in the shop so long that now I don't remember how slow it was before.

I've driven it about 90 miles since getting it back. I got another P0101 code in the first few miles, cleared it, and it hasn't come back yet. The MAF was just replaced before all this work got done. I found a thread where someone commented that they got the P0101 code on a BEW to stop by advancing torsion. I wonder if it would be worthwhile trying that, based on the code and my sense that the car could be zingier. I won't be able to try it until late October, when I will have gotten the laptop I have VCDS on from Seattle. Hopefully the code was just a fluke and won't come back.

I'm curious to also see whether the fuel economy improves after all that work. Since getting the car at the start of 2017 it has averaged 33 mpg in mixed city/highway driving, which seemed a little low.

The p0101 code has caused a CEL about three times in about 150 miles, so it seems to be an enduring problem. In general I don't like how the car is driving - there's a slight shudder when I lift off the accelerator, another one when I step back onto it, and yet it seems weirdly insensitive to the throttle and lacking in torque off the line.

Has anyone else gotten CELS from P0101 immediately after a camshaft replacement? Unfortunately, there's a lot of new parts on the car now, and the timing belt had to come off for the new camshaft. So I'm worried about how the shop left the timing, torsion and the IQ adaptation (I believe the new nozzles can flow more than stock). But I have no VCDS to see for myself!

The plan is now to drop the car off at the mechanics AGAIN, before leaving town for two weeks. Stay tuned, I guess, but please weigh in if you have an idea for what they should check or do first.

As I mentioned a couple times before in this thread, the MAF was replaced in July before the intake cleaning, injector work and camshaft. So I guess, UNLESS that MAF got damaged during the intake cleaning, the remaining possible causes of the CEL are loose hoses, insufficient torsion advance, or... ? Some kind of EGR malfunction? I know that the O2 sensor is probably not working, but I don't think that could throw a code or cause drivability problems.

I have been following this thread as well, and the things I would have suggested were already put on here. The cam was my next thought as well, but now I am still scratching my head. I don't have a lot of experience with the PD engine is all.

P0101- read this
Due to age of car I'd start with wiring/connects/grounds

If you have an OX sensor code, that could cause slight problems. If you do not have an OX code I would assume that its functioning properly. Which goes back to the MAF. Huco brand might just not be good enough. Bosch despite the higher price is always the better choice.


There was also a thread around here for a PD with similar problems a guy from Australia had. His son found the solution by accident. I'll see if I can find it and link to it.


Heres the link, post #152 may help.


http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=487065&page=11&highlight=egr+unplugged

BobnOH said:

P0101- read this
Due to age of car I'd start with wiring/connects/grounds

Click to expand...

I never updated this in the fall, but I have more info to add now. Back in October after I took it back to the shop for the last time, they claimed I had a code for a bad camshaft sensor, which wasn't showing on my ultragauge, and charged me $500 to replace that sensor. That didn't make much of a difference in how the car drove, and the P0101 code came back basically every time the car was up to temperature. Disgusted, I decided to just accept that at least it drove, keep clearing the code, and hope that I never had to take it back to that shop again. It got really freaking cold and the car was a champ all winter. I started thinking "one more year up here in AK and I can hopefully bring it back to my trusted shop in WA."
But recently the car has had trouble starting and I diagnosed a bad lift pump. I revisited the ross-tech link BobnOH posted above and noticed this in the notes at the end (bold type added for emphasis):
Maybe once I replace the lift pump it will stop throwing the P101 code! That would be cool.