ALH Water Pump Failure

Ah, sharing this event that occurred this morning.

This is the ALH engine in my 84 Vanagon with about 50k miles on the TB job and a total of 201k miles on the engine (about 72k miles in the Vanagon).

So, to commence the story I must back up about two months ago when I heard a squeak/chirp and thought it was the top small roller between the Cam and IP Sprockets. So, I changed that roller and still had a squeak/chirp. Considering my bad hearing, I just assumed the noise was the back of the belt chirping on that small roller. And, for what it's worth, I've only driven this Van about 1500 miles since last July after completing a 12k mile trip to Alaska and return.

Now, fast forward to this morning. I was heading into town about 15 miles away to pickup a few items at the local hardware. A friend that lives nearby needed a ride to pick-up his car at a local shop. So, when I hit the main road I blew-out the soot for about 9 miles cruising at 70 mph and more. As I slowed for the drop-off place for my friend I heard this horrible sound from the engine and began to smell anti-freeze.

After quickly observing gauges, I immediately shut-down the engine. I had it towed to my uncle's garage which fortunately was close by.

It appears the TB "did not" jump time ....... thus, I dodged the bullet. However, this is still sort of preliminary as I have not 100% confirmed everything.

So, below are a few pics of the results (comments are at the top)

Below, you are looking down at the shredded TB at the Tensioner...



Below, is a close-up of the shredded TB at the Tensioner..



Below, you are looking at all the shredded TB bits soaked with the pink anti-freeze.



Below, the crankshaft locking device appears to be in the "normal" postion based on obvious wear where the two bolts go thru the slots... Thus, with the Lobes of the Cam on #1 in the proper up position (10 and 2) and the Pin in the IP, it appears to be in Time. (read more at the next pic)...




Below, from the files, is a pic of the G60 Fly Wheel showing the TDC mark which I made. This G60 Fly Wheel was installed before the TB job. The TDC mark on the OE 1.6 Diesel Fly Wheel was very visible. My added TDC mark on the G60 Fly Wheel doesn't show in the observation hole. But, the pointer is aligned between two teeth and adjacent to the bolt you can see. So, I do believe the TB did not jump time. (I have removed the Valve Cover but not the Vacuum Pump to install the lock plate.)



...............

The Water Pump is locked solid. It was very difficult to rotate the engine to set-up TDC. I could see and feel the TB jumping the teeth across the locked-up Water Pump cog.

This really sucks because, as I stated above, the TB job has just a little over 50k miles on. Also, if I had not been dropping my friend off, the next mile or less would have been the demise of the engine!

I'll get back to the job Monday morning...

I've seen this once before. Buy a lottery ticket.

Ah man that sucks,you are fortunate though.
Always hear that diesels are bomb proof and last forever,true,
it's the little parts that don't.

My son had a similar experience with his '00 Golf. Water pump seized at 70 MPH, stripped all the teeth off the timing belt. Remarkably the engine did not lose time and after a belt kit replacement ran fine.

His car sat for six months when he was away at school. I wonder if the bearings in water pumps don't take kindly to that.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

My son had a similar experience with his '00 Golf. Water pump seized at 70 MPH, stripped all the teeth off the timing belt. Remarkably the engine did not lose time and after a belt kit replacement ran fine.

His car sat for six months when he was away at school. I wonder if the bearings in water pumps don't take kindly to that.

Click to expand...

Over the last many years I have always let one of my ALH TDIs sit over the winter (over six months) and have never had a WP issue due to lack of use. I'm not sure what brand of WP for sure I've been using but I've bought all the TB kits from Dennis at MetalMan. Perhaps not always the same brand supplied/used, not sure.
Hope you dodged the bullet Andy, but certainly better for this to happen when/where it did rather than on the Alaska road trip.

Same thing happened to our '01 Golf last summer. It was an OEM quality Geba metal impeller pump with only 35K miles on it. We lucked out too as the timing didn't skip.

Yep! I am pretty sure the WP is a Geba.

The previous job only had about 50k miles on it. But, since the engine had been sitting for almost 7 years, I did the change at about 151k miles on the engine in late 2013 anticipating the 2014 trip to Alaska. I saved that WP and stuck it in the Geba box with a note on the outside that it come off the Vanagon engine at X miles... Not that I would use it again!

This engine come from Jimbote via MrGutWrench.... his rear-end wreck!

EDIT: for those who followed our Road Trip last summer, if you recall, late in the return voyage, I thought a bearing was going out of the Alternator and later determined the sound must have been a gravel inside the ALT. Well, considering my hearing issues, the noise may very well have been the Water Pump .....

Happened to me at 98K. Read this post.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=419669

jokila said:

Happened to me at 98K. Read this post.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=419669

Click to expand...

Wow! The photos are very similar to mine!

So, as for all the Threads we see about TBs possibly jumping time with no apparent reason (no documentation, just speculation) .............. I think our experiences prove otherwise!

My water pump exploded... thankfully the engine died when the injection pump jumped time... but cam and crank stayed in time.

Carnage pics...




Back together now and running good. Just to be certain, pull the valve cover and cam (easy to do) and check the lifters really well for impact marks or cracking. You more then likely dodged a big bullet.

We used to worry about getting metal impellers instead of plastic. Maybe the data points aren't enough, but it worries me about these pumps not lasting long enough. I would gladly pay a little more for reliability.

The OE WP in my 2000 Jetta wasn't changed until it had 167k miles on it (back when I never knew much about TDIs [belt and tensioner change only]).

But, I do agree that reliability should be beyond 100k miles...

Well, I found a service record in the car... My pump had 120k on it when it failed. Really, at 75k, you should be thinking strongly about doing the timing set anyways. Just use quality parts.

Finished doing the TB install this afternoon.

After checking and re-checking numerous times, I was convinced the TB did not jump time. So, after installing everything, I did the two times rotation..... all was good!

It started right up and idled just fine... Timing needs to be set with VCDS which will be done later this week (lot on my plate at the moment).

So, as others have posted, I guess I dodged the bullet. I thank my friend who needed a ride to pick up his car at a local shop. If I had not needed to drop him off, the TB would not have made it the next 3 miles to my destiny !

I'll try to post some additional pics Thursday of this week .....

Thanks for posting this. My timing belt kit that was put in 25,000 miles ago had the metal impeller GEBA. If I hear a bearing chirp it will be replaced.

Mr4btTahoe said:

Well, I found a service record in the car... My pump had 120k on it when it failed. Really, at 75k, you should be thinking strongly about doing the timing set anyways. Just use quality parts.

Click to expand...

I think we have all advocated for high quality parts. The question is how do you tell it's high quality? Sourcing well known OEM manufacturers is important, but is that enough? At this point it's hard to know which brand as a trend is failing this catastrophically.

This happened to my daughter's 2000 Toyota. Luckily, it's a non-interference engine! (still blew the head gasket tho. . . )

The takeaway from that is: I thought the noise was a loose heat-shield or something. Diagnosis never was my strong point. But I bought an automotive stethoscope, and I use it now to pinpoint funny noises, because you never know. . .

My 2003 bug with 30000 miles on the timing belt and 6 years is developing a chirp under the timing cover. Going to diagnose this soon.

If anyone figures they've got a chirping WP could they please record a video and post it?

Have to wonder whether the metal impellers are heavier and thus present more rotational stress on the bearings. What does VAG use these days when they do WPs on these cars?

FWIW
My local vw parts guy, who's opinion I respect, says they've seen numerous Geba pumps failing early.
He/they will only use a vag rebuilt wp..... part# 038121011ax.

I had a Hepu water pump and it started leaking just after 60k miles.. It was only about 3 years old. It didn't lock up but I changed it within a month of it starting to drip. Was a bit disappointed it failed well before the 100k maintenance timeframe.

Well, I've intended to post more pics.... just haven't got around to it.

I did check the timing a few days ago with VCDS. The timing is just a smidge below the graph center line (the blue line) which means it is slightly retarded. That's fine for the time being. After about 1k miles, I'll set the timing slightly above the blue line (advanced).

I also double checked the mechanical timing again based on file photos of the flywheel TDC mark, etc. It's spot on and thus, as I've already stated, the TB did not jump on the crankshaft cog!

Lastly, and probably more important, I checked my inventory of TB kits to confirm that when I did the TB job that, I in fact did a complete job. I have no extra water pumps or idler/rollers but one extra set of bolts (no need for the bolts in my 84 Vanagon). As I may have already stated, the previous TB set only had about 50k miles. So, I thought there was a remote possibility that I might have only changed the TB and tensioner... not so!

So, the Water Pump, in fact, only had slightly over 50k miles on it!