HPFP Failures-State by State List

Failure rate

If there are 60,000 TDIs sold. 09 and 10 models and we know about 40 HPFP failures, the failure percent is 0.0006666667. This is a small percent if you think about it but the vehicles have only been in circulation for 3 years. That is about 13.3 failures per year. Out of 20,000 vehicles 13.3 will fail. These calculations are based on the data I have. Given the facts that repair times are about 1.5 months for HPFP do to parts shortage. I assume there are more failures out there then we think. Let's just say for every 5 HPFP failure only 1 is reported. We have about 0.00333 chance of failure, about 66.7 failures per year.

Why do we hear news of food poisoning from time to time? Is it because of parents all of a sudden gave birth to a batch of ill health children with genetic digestive defect? Or is it more likely due to careless preperation of food from farm down to the resturant level? Did you wash your hand before you eat? How clean is the food factory? Is the kitchen well maintained? Some parent even feed their kids alien food, no wonder their kids are sick, oh I forgot, my children can't eat alien food, now the poor baby is sick... but I won't tell the doctor.

This diesel fuel is food for the new CR TDI engine. This new TDI engine is designed for top quality modern diesel fuel. When some fuel suppliers started to cut corner to save money, thinking they can get away with it, you have TDI food poisoning (HFPF failure).

It is great that the US government is checking into the TDI stall issue. Time to fix up holes in the US diesel supply chain.

fastalan said:

Why do we hear news of food poisoning from time to time? Is it because of parents all of a sudden gave birth to a batch of ill health children with genetic digestive defect? Or is it more likely due to careless preperation of food from farm down to the resturant level? Did you wash your hand before you eat? How clean is the food factory? Is the kitchen well maintained? Some parent even feed their kids alien food, no wonder their kids are sick, oh I forgot, my children can't eat alien food, now the poor baby is sick... but I won't tell the doctor.

This diesel fuel is food for the new CR TDI engine. This new TDI engine is designed for top quality modern diesel fuel. When some fuel suppliers started to cut corner to save money, thinking they can get away with it, you have TDI food poisoning (HFPF failure).

It is great that the US government is checking into the TDI stall issue. Time to fix up holes in the US diesel supply chain.

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Good food for thought,BUT how do you explain that 2 other tdi's ate the same food (fuel) and didn't almost die. One of these tdi's was older and it didn't get sick. The other tdi was the twin of the tdi that got sick. Bad food should make all 3 sick and not just one and especially the twin.

dweisel

Hector0501 said:

If there are 60,000 TDIs sold. 09 and 10 models and we know about 40 HPFP failures, the failure percent is 0.0006666667. This is a small percent if you think about it but the vehicles have only been in circulation for 3 years. That is about 13.3 failures per year. Out of 20,000 vehicles 13.3 will fail. These calculations are based on the data I have. Given the facts that repair times are about 1.5 months for HPFP do to parts shortage. I assume there are more failures out there then we think. Let's just say for every 5 HPFP failure only 1 is reported. We have about 0.00333 chance of failure, about 66.7 failures per year.

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No use straining your brain crunching numbers that mean nothing. Your formula is based on way too little known info.

dweisel

dweisel said:

There will be all kinds of assumptions made from this list. Too many unknown factors to consider to draw anykind of conclusions.

dweisel

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dweisel said:

No use straining your brain crunching numbers that mean nothing. Your formula is based on way too little known info.

dweisel

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If it's useless to try and use this data as an overall failure rate, and useless to try and use this data to determine what states may have poor fuel quality, and as you state yourself above in the first quote "too many unknown factors to consider to draw any kind of conclusion.."Why compile the data at all?

If we are going to keep this list around, I'm going to clean this thread up as once again another fuel system related thread has gotten off the main topic into various tangents. I've been away for a week and only had limited time and access to the forums or I would have taken care of this earlier. If we are going to keep a list like this, the list should be maintained as Silver02s list is - a list and not a list followed by pages upon pages of discussion unlrelated to the topic. I will also add a link to this to the FAQ at the top of the page.

dzcad90 said:

If it's useless to try and use this data as an overall failure rate, and useless to try and use this data to determine what states may have poor fuel quality, and as you state yourself above in the first quote "too many unknown factors to consider to draw any kind of conclusion.."Why compile the data at all?

If we are going to keep this list around, I'm going to clean this thread up as once again another fuel system related thread has gotten off the main topic into various tangents. I've been away for a week and only had limited time and access to the forums or I would have taken care of this earlier. If we are going to keep a list like this, the list should be maintained as Silver02s list is - a list and not a list followed by pages upon pages of discussion unlrelated to the topic. I will also add a link to this to the FAQ at the top of the page.

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The list was never meant to be used to draw any conclusions about hpfp failures and therefore is useless for this kind percentage of failure formulas. Thats all I was stating. The list was only meant to be a list and thats it. I'm sure members are interested in how many reported failures are in the different states. As far as keeping a list a clean uncluttered list, only you have the power to separate out the chaff. People find it necessary to make comments even though they are told not to do so. I guess its just human nature.

dweisel

I have a question-I don't own one of the CR's, but I haven't ever seen anything about which tranny was in the car that had a HPFP failure-anyone know if they are split between DSG's and manuals,or does one type have more failures than the other?

tdidieselbobny said:

I have a question-I don't own one of the CR's, but I haven't ever seen anything about which tranny was in the car that had a HPFP failure-anyone know if they are split between DSG's and manuals,or does one type have more failures than the other?

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Transmission type woud hae no bearing on whether the hpfp fails or not.

dweisel

Only reason I thought is maybe w/manuals a person has a better chance to over rev the engine when shifting up or down-maybe causing more stress on the pump internals-

tdidieselbobny said:

Only reason I thought is maybe w/manuals a person has a better chance to over rev the engine when shifting up or down-maybe causing more stress on the pump internals-

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I doubt high revs is a factor. My wife's 09 Sedan that had a hpfp failure was probably never reved above 3000 rpm's.

dweisel

No failures in PA yet? They mandate 2-5% BD in all of the diesel sold in that state. Might lend some credence to lubricity being a culprit of the failures. Any other states have similar BD requirements?

Absolute Diesel said:

No failures in PA yet? They mandate 2-5% BD in all of the diesel sold in that state. Might lend some credence to lubricity being a culprit of the failures. Any other states have similar BD requirements?

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Illinois doesn't require it, but there is a financial incentive to using B5-B20. The pumps state that the diesel could contain up to 20% bio.

Absolute Diesel said:

No failures in PA yet? They mandate 2-5% BD in all of the diesel sold in that state. Might lend some credence to lubricity being a culprit of the failures. Any other states have similar BD requirements?

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No reported failures yet on this site. The dealer in PA that repaired my wifes Sedan after the hpfp failure had already done one before her's and that was over a year ago last Sept of 2009. Bio was mandated in PA starting in Jan 15,2009,BUT it has 1 year to take implimentation. So,PA can't be used as a guide as to the affects of BioD on hpfps yet as some stations have it some don't.

Although I am leaning more and more towards lack of lubrication as the cause of the hpfps that I've taken apart.

So, LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY!
dweisel

dweisel said:

No reported failures yet on this site. The dealer that repaired my wifes Sedan after the hpfp failure had already done one before her's and that was Sept of 2009. Bio was mandated in PA starting in Jan 15,2009,BUT it has 1 year to take implimentation. So,PA can't be used as a guide as to the affects of BioD on hpfps yet as some stations have it some don't.

Although I am leaning more and more towards lack of lubrication as the cause of the hpfps that I've taken apart.

So, LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY!
dweisel

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US VW total sales from 8/9/09 through 8/10/10.
http://media.vw.com/press_releases/v...-to-date-sales

VW claims 27 percent of total sales are TDIs so...........

27 percent of 172,747 total sales = 46,641 TDIs JUST in 2010..........lets see 42 failures (your count). I'll add 156 more just for fun = 200 or .00428 %. Yep, I'm frickin scared to death........whoa, build a bomb shelter their coming for me. Hey, keep lookin those WMDs (HPFP failures) must be somewhere.

Right now I'm more concerned with filling my tank as the nozzle seems to be hanging up ......... something new for me. I'll taken suggestions on this topic. Thanks

GTIDan said:

US VW total sales from 8/9/09 through 8/10/10.
http://media.vw.com/press_releases/v...-to-date-sales

VW claims 27 percent of total sales are TDIs so...........

27 percent of 172,747 total sales = 46,641 TDIs JUST in 2010..........lets see 42 failures (your count). I'll add 156 more just for fun = 200 or .00428 %. Yep, I'm frickin scared to death........whoa, build a bomb shelter their coming for me. Hey, keep lookin those WMDs (HPFP failures) must be somewhere.

Right now I'm more concerned with filling my tank as the nozzle seems to be hanging up ......... something new for me. I'll taken suggestions on this topic. Thanks

Click to expand...

Your a real trip and completly blind to reality as a lot of people are today. My wife says "Quit shov'en the frick'en nozzle in so HARD!" Just as with the hpfp failures you're just as blind with the fuel nozzle filler hole. Ease it in instead of jamm'in it in! Thats my advice to you.

LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY!
dweisel

GTIDan said:

US VW total sales from 8/9/09 through 8/10/10.
http://media.vw.com/press_releases/v...-to-date-sales

VW claims 27 percent of total sales are TDIs so...........

27 percent of 172,747 total sales = 46,641 TDIs JUST in 2010..........lets see 42 failures (your count). I'll add 156 more just for fun = 200 or .00428 %. Yep, I'm frickin scared to death........whoa, build a bomb shelter their coming for me. Hey, keep lookin those WMDs (HPFP failures) must be somewhere.

Right now I'm more concerned with filling my tank as the nozzle seems to be hanging up ......... something new for me. I'll taken suggestions on this topic. Thanks

Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess it is no big deal, unless it is YOURS that takes one for the group! Just put aside 10 Large......

updated list. I neglected to list people who had multiple failures on the same car. There is one more member that had two failures. Anyone know who that was?

dweisel

GTIDan said:

US VW total sales from 8/9/09 through 8/10/10.
http://media.vw.com/press_releases/v...-to-date-sales

VW claims 27 percent of total sales are TDIs so...........

27 percent of 172,747 total sales = 46,641 TDIs JUST in 2010..........lets see 42 failures (your count). I'll add 156 more just for fun = 200 or .00428 %. Yep, I'm frickin scared to death........whoa, build a bomb shelter their coming for me. Hey, keep lookin those WMDs (HPFP failures) must be somewhere.

Right now I'm more concerned with filling my tank as the nozzle seems to be hanging up ......... something new for me. I'll taken suggestions on this topic. Thanks

Click to expand...

It may be one in a million currently to experience this failure, but most of these cars just don't have the miles piled on them yet. I can definitely read the bosch chart though.

Lubricity Rating ------------- Comparable Hours
HFRR 675 (untreated fuel) --- about 150 hours
HFRR 575 ------------------- 500 hours
HFRR 520 (ULSD min. lubricity) Extrapolated 1000
HFRR 450 (acceptable) ------ 2000 hours



1000 hours at an average 50 mph is 50,000 miles
2000 hours at the same is 100,000 miles

so take your average speed and establish your range (30mph = 30k - 60k, 40mph=40k - 80k)


A majority of these cars are just approaching this benchmark range. The real story will be told in the next 2-3 years (and within these hour meter ranges) depending if it's a 09 or a 10. For the sake of all of us financially invested I am hoping for no failures, but if they fail that they fail before the 60k mark.

My own ride does have metal flakes in the canister, but no massive failure to date. That metal is coming from somewhere, it is not normal wear and tear (I do have photos posted, especially view the metal shavings on my fuel canister where the diesel I spilled dried, you can see my fingerprints in the silver shavings).

As for the fuel pump shutting off (at the gas station not under the hood), mine does that too! Does yours state have the emission shield on the pump? Is there a better forum for this last bit?

I think 3 years/60k is the minimum that one should look to purchase a vehicle. At this point the issues are largely well known.

umrpunter said:

...I can definitely read the bosch chart though.

Lubricity Rating ------------- Comparable Hours
HFRR 675 (untreated fuel) --- about 150 hours
HFRR 575 ------------------- 500 hours
HFRR 520 (ULSD min. lubricity) Extrapolated 1000
HFRR 450 (acceptable) ------ 2000 hours



1000 hours at an average 50 mph is 50,000 miles
2000 hours at the same is 100,000 miles

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What's the source of this chart? I can't believe that 2000 hours is the design life of the HPFP because that's only like 75K miles for the average driver and would be unacceptably low to expect to shell out $10K to replace the fuel system. I would expect they would shoot for something like 5000 hours operating time as a minimum life.

nhdoc said:

What's the source of this chart? I can't believe that 2000 hours is the design life of the HPFP because that's only like 75K miles for the average driver and would be unacceptably low to expect to shell out $10K to replace the fuel system. I would expect they would shoot for something like 5000 hours operating time as a minimum life.

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The 2000 hours is not the design life.

Bosch's graph stopped at 2000 hours testing with 450 micron fuel. One can extrapolate the graph to a point where Bosch says the lubricity of fuel with a 575 wear scar is insufficient. One gets about 4000 hours on 450 micron fuel. You can also extrapolate to a point where Bosch says that fuel with a wear scar of 680 caused bearing seizure. That point for 450 micron fuel is about 6000 hours.

When one looks at the line graph testing 380 fuel, after the first 1000 hours of wear, the line is very flat with very little slope. One can easily extrapolate to 15,000 hours on 380 micron fuel.

drivbiwire says the design life of all Bosch pumps is 15,000 hours (750,000 miles) on 400 micron fuel. So, the $64 question is: what is the expected life using US 520 spec fuel? 460 spec fuel?

http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/meeting/2003/022003bosch.pdf

Plus 3- cool article from Bosch!

The fuel samples in this Bosch report are from 2002. It would be awesome to find this same set of tests on diesel now in 2010. If 80% of the samples taken in 2002 had a wear scar >460, what would 80% of the fuel samples taken of today's diesel fuel show?? Again, would love to see an updated Bosch report.

Perhaps newer test results could keep us from having to use additives.

MacBuckeye all the additives in the world aren't going to save your engine from crappy fuel...

and still no verified reports from Canada... (knock wood)
but again, I and others here only buy from reliable stations.

I will say I know for a fact that Petro-Canada and Esso have a habit of watering down their fuel, even regular gas. Caused damage to two cars (non-diesel) because of that.
I'll never buy there again

updated list as of 10/28/2010. total of 46 failures. see first post in thread for updates.

dweisel

98% of all statistics are made up.


statistically speaking all humans have one testicle and one large breast.


I think we are panicking this early, but it does bear watching.

Capacitor said:

MacBuckeye all the additives in the world aren't going to save your engine from crappy fuel...

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Eeeek, I agree. The thought of a bad dose of crappy fuel scares the "bleeep" out of me. Getting fuel at the major players is the first step in easing any worries.

oilhammer said:

So, suddenly out of the blue, fuel systems are being tooefed by wrong/bad fuel just in 2009+ cars with the CR fuel system and yet the previous two generations of VAG TDIs sold here continue on untouched by the same fuel? Are you saying that a high percentage of morons buy 2009+ TDIs? What about people who have already owned and driven older TDIs for many hundreds of thousands of miles? Suddenly they decided to accidentally put gasoline in their new TDI? And do you think nobody has ever misfueled a VE or PD TDI?

Something is fishy....

Even if the culprit IS poor fuel, these cars were certified for sale in this country, with our available fuel. They should have been tested as such. Federal law requires it. They cannot get emissions compliance and certifications with some exotic Euro-fuel.

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oilhammer

You have brought up an interesting point. A point I have noticed before, but when I read your post the former idea was more confirmed.

The TDI PDs must inhale a little gasoline mix at times and not fail. Why? IMHO the high pressure pump piston does not fail very often, and evidently the rest of the engine (pistons rods etc) does not fail with a minor dose of mixed fuel.

So what is the difference? The roller part of a PD injection system is oiled by the engine oil, but the roller part of a CR is oiled by the diesel fuel. This issue has been discussed by others, but dropped (some got beat on pretty bad). I do not suggest engine oil for the pump because of the design, but I do see the CR roller element design failing to handle gasoline.

The simple solution is still to seperate the roller element from the ULSD and provide its own oiling source. That or upgrade the exhaust treatment to handle a heck of a lot of lubricant (probably more than dweisel suggests. I have some ideas, but they will have to be suggested after more systems fail.

I only mentined it under your oilhammer post because your question suggests this answer.

eddif

MacBuckeye said:

Eeeek, I agree. The thought of a bad dose of crappy fuel scares the "bleeep" out of me. Getting fuel at the major players is the first step in easing any worries.

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If there is a diesel fuel vendor out there that is selling fuel contaminated enough to result in a delayed failure of the HPFP, then how many other CR TDI's have picked up a sub lethal dose of fuel at the same vendor only to wind up the dealership much later with a good batch of fuel in the tank purchase at a later date from a uncontaminated source.

I can only hope that governments monitor fuel quality that the vendors are selling and enforce the standards. After all, it is government that has mandated the new technology that requires the fuel. Government has at least a moral obligation to ensure that the fuel distribution and delivery systems can match the technology.

Jack Frost said:

I can only hope that governments monitor fuel quality that the vendors are selling and enforce the standards. After all, it is government that has mandated the new technology that requires the fuel. Government has at least a moral obligation to ensure that the fuel distribution and delivery systems can match the technology.

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It would be nice for the Weights & Measures Department in each state nationwide to monitor fuel quality. I don't think they do. All they do is certify the pumps for accurate fuel delivery. And how many of them just slap a state sticker on the pump without performing all the necessary/required "weights & measures"?? Fuel quality would be a logical step in the procedure. I would prefer to get quality fuel all the time then worry about how precise the quantity of fuel I get.

One could only hope that the GOV monitors these things. In many cases, everything stops at the "moral obligation" and the consumer/citizen is hosed by lack of enforcement and control. Look at the oil and gas industry back in the 50's-70's. There was GOV regulation and mandates for the O&G companies to follow. HOWEVER, these companies manipulated the law and abused our natural resources and polluted our land, streams, and ground water. The all-mighty dollar in the front seat. Everything else taking a back seat. Like a lot of things.... A policy or law is put in place. Eveyone does the minimum to not break the law or violate the policy, but does everything else to make a buck and maximize profits. I would guess the gas stations do the same. Follow GOV guidelines, but cut corners or become laxed. End result... we suffer the consequences.

The positive in all of this I guess is that forums like this exist so we can educate each other, share information, and take action to minimize the risks from these companies not providing the utmost service/quality/etc.

Mac, you trying to start a moral argument the day before elections?

Enforcement of regulations requires more money to pay for regulators = bigger government = higher taxes.

Free-enterprise, allowing big corporations to "self-regulate", = smaller governement = lower taxes.

Pick your poison...and vote your choice.