Newer TDI

andreigbs said:

Doubtful. And remember Oilhammer’s advice about steering clear of the newer 4cyl gassers.
For longevity, power, and economy in the long run nothing beats a diesel.

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The gasser wouldn't be a vw.

The EPA has killed diesels I'm afraid.

I'll keep the TDI in mind as I search around though !

These deals on the emission fixed TDIs are pretty tempting....am I buying a money pit? What’s the catch?

2014 Passat TDI 30k miles CPO for $11k at a local vw dealer.

There are a few catches:

• Although mileage may be low, you're still buying a 5-10 model year old car with features and tech of that period.
• The car sat in storage, sometimes outside, sometimes on wet ground, sometimes for years. Inspect carefully before buying
• Because of above the car may need some items replaced that the selling dealer didn't want to spend money on: tires, brakes, battery, wipers, brake fluid and DPF flush (if applicable).
• Sadly, some of these cars were neglected by the owners before buyback since they knew they were getting rid of the cars, especially items like DSG service or fluid flushes. Lower mileage is better.
• Resale values on these cars have fallen steadily as more have come on the market. I don't know if that trend has subsided or not.

If there's a TDI you like and you can find a good one, then it's a great deal. And the warranty is excellent. But repair costs post-warranty are likely to be much higher. And DIY repairs will be more difficult.

Negotiate with the dealer to bring all services up to date, at a VW dealership if you are not there already. This one is coming up on its 40k service which is a costly one due to the DSG service required. Unless you do your own maintenance. They aren't that difficult but dealers seem to want $400 to $1k to do them for some reason. The oil change is usually under $100 so not too bad for a dealer and the right oil. Fuel filter about the same. Cabin and engine air filters are easy to do yourself. Just make sure you check the car out well as some were left out rusting and neglected as stated above. If in good shape that is a screaming deal on that car. Good luck! The Passats are good highway cars. Comfortable and roomy and get good fuel economy.

I don't know if you want a DSG or a 6spd. I'd say look for a '15, even though it is the only year for that engine model. '15 Passats also have 6spd available, and I think the '15's have a little more generous warranty 11yr/162k mile, I'm not sure if that goes over to the next owner or if it was for original owners only. I can get mid-40's most of the time with my DSG, winter and winter tires decrease it some.

So according to the carfax that 2014 Passat was only driven 70 miles from June 2017 until now. Also shows title issued to manufacture in Michigan at that time. So was the car taken back and put on a lot in Michigan for 2 1/2 years?

No not necessarily. All titles for buy back cars will show that. The actual car was more than likely parked somewhere else generally closer to where it was turned in. There were huge holding lots across the US for this purpose. They didn't haul 500k cars to Michigan and then haul them back again. All titles were processed in Michigan.

Lightflyer1 said:

No not necessarily. All titles for buy back cars will show that. The actual car was more than likely parked somewhere else generally closer to where it was turned in. There were huge holding lots across the US for this purpose. They didn't haul 500k cars to Michigan and then haul them back again. All titles were processed in Michigan.

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Makes sense. Shows being a North Carolina car until the Michigan title.

Another option....2013 Jetta sportswagon 9k miles CPO from vw dealer....$13k

So what's the realistic lifespan of these TDIs? I'm not expecting the old days of 250k+....is 200k reasonable even with all the emissions crap on them?

Yes. We have a lot of customers with over 200K on MKVI TDIs. They may need more repairs than the earlier cars, but they'll get there.

so a passat or jetta sportswagon for cruising up and down I-95...that is the question....which has more cargo space? better ride?

greenskeeper said:

so a passat or jetta sportswagon for cruising up and down I-95...that is the question....which has more cargo space? better ride?

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IMO: Passat. No question.


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If you want a manual that will be much, much easier to find in a sportwagen.

greenskeeper said:

Another option....2013 Jetta sportswagon 9k miles CPO from vw dealer....$13k

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carfax shows bought back from vw 8/19/19 offered for sale 11/16/19 so only sat for 3 months, although driven very little for the first 6 years.

Going to look tomorrow....dealer has passats and jettas for comparison.

Buybacks ended Jan 31, 2019, if I recall correctly. Paperwork may not have been processed in any hurry. Car probably sat for at least 10 months. Still not terribly long.

The HPFP failures scare the hell outta me,more so than the emissions crap (delete when it fails).... no way to put a filter after the HPFP to mitigate metal debris when it fails (after warranty is up)?

While I know it has happened plenty of times, it does not seem to be nearly as common as the internet might make it out to be. Plus, the cost to repair it is not nearly as high as you may have been led to think. Also the CKRA seems to be much less likely to have it happen, and the 2015s so far have been fine.

Of all the CBEA/CJAA TDIs I have had through here over the years, I have only ever seen five HPFP failures, three of which were covered under warranty no questions asked, the other two had over 160k miles on them and I am 90% sure they had both been misfueled a time or two (fleet cars).

and covered by the court ordered warranty. Yes there "was" a kit for mitigating this damage but is no longer being produced. I bought one of the last setups for my car for after warranty use, just in case. As said this was more of an issue with the earlier year cars than the later but still not a widespread issue. Much more rare with the later year cars. You are more likely to have emissions related problems than HPFP. Use fuel with a little bio in it if possible or a lubricity additive if it makes you feel better.

Thanks for all the replies. Going to the dealer later today.

Car seemed nice. Can’t decide to go for it or just get a Toyota/lexus with under 100k for the same coin. I keep thinking this TDI will bring a world of hurt sooner or later.

Oh I can show you plenty of Toyota products that give their owners worlds of hurt too, LOL.

I think you already would have a leg up on a newer TDI anyway than some regular schmuck on the street would.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Fixed '15s seem to get significantly better FE than the fixed 09-14s. And 12-14 Passats seem to be have a lot of heater core failures. Some theorize the new emissions profiles are causing coolant to boil and block the heater cores. If I bought a '12-14 Passat I'd have it reflashed back to pre-fix condition, even if it does jeopardize the warranty.

Of the buyback cars available my favorite is the '15 Golf or Golf Sportwagen. I like the MK7 platform better than the earlier cars, including the MKVI Golfs. However, my MK7 tends to sit, as I still mostly drive my MKIV. And it's been on a lot of long trips. Works fine for me, and once you've gotten used to getting over 700 miles on a fill it's hard to give it up, especially on long drives.

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The NMS Passats were clogging heater cores before the emissions scandal.

What I HAVE seen is many more Gen 1s being reported as having "clogged heater cores" within a week or two of the fix. Not that some just suddenly clogged, but I think the "EGR Cooling efficiency" code threshhold became more sensitive in the software with the emissions fix.

NMS Passats weren't even setting codes half the time, but there was a tech tip I remember coming out maybe in 2014, a year before the scandal, about the passenger side vents being cool while the driver's side is hot and that was due to the heatercore clogging.

Suppose it's nothing that new, though. Plenty of longi mount Audis and B5 Passats did the same too, though possible for different reasons.

At least with the NMS Passat, it's not anywhere near the core to replace that it is on Mk4 era stuff. The whole dashboard doesn't need to come apart and out to do it.

The 12-14 Passats are great because they seem to be able to get similar fuel economy to the 2015 engines without the added complexity of the 2015s, and it fixes many of the common maladies the gen 1 engines have (intercooler icing, there's no intake manifold runner flaps to go bad, no intermediate fuel pump, injectors are cheaper and easier to replace if needed and I'm pretty sure the fuel injection strategy is different for LNT cars vs. SCR w/DEF cars, DPF failures seem to be much less frequent on gen 2 and 3 vs. gen 1).

I just wish that CKRA engine came in a wagon bodystyle.

The CKRA has a known weak turbocharger, though.

I agree that the heater core clogging is not limited to those. I had a 2010 Tiguan in here recently with one.

I am pretty good and getting them cleaned out, though. That Permatex flush stuff isolated in the core itself soaking for a bit and then some vigorous garden hose flushing usually works.

oilhammer said:

The CKRA has a known weak turbocharger, though.
I agree that the heater core clogging is not limited to those. I had a 2010 Tiguan in here recently with one.
I am pretty good and getting them cleaned out, though. That Permatex flush stuff isolated in the core itself soaking for a bit and then some vigorous garden hose flushing usually works.

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Yeah, the turbo is smaller, spins up super fast, but definitely not as good for abusive driving.

I did replace one for a customer semi-recently, original turbo, had 290,000 miles on it. Mostly long distance highway and not driving aggressively, which of course helps prolong the life of just about everything. Lifetime average fuel economy above 46 MPG (keeps religious track of it on Fuelly). Also is one of the rare manual versions that don't have an approved fix. He kept it, no compensation from the lawsuit. Has over 300,000 on it now.

oilhammer said:

Oh I can show you plenty of Toyota products that give their owners worlds of hurt too, LOL.

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ok I'll play...what common problems are on a T/L 3.5 v6 engine 2007-present?

greenskeeper said:

ok I'll play...what common problems are on a T/L 3.5 v6 engine 2007-present?

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You're kidding, right?



Well start with the oil leaks. The timing case goes over the front of the block and both heads, and the heads and block are not machined properly so the surfaces do not line up, so the wads of gray sealant they put in under the timing case (there is no gasket) eventually pushes out and they start leaking oil all over. Bad. And on all the GR engines, there is no fixing anything on them inside the car, the engine has to come out.

The oil pipes leak (some had recalls for these), but they can spontaneously, with no warning, split open and spew oil out all over the place. Even on cars that were not under the recall, and even on some that WERE recalled but AFTER they were "fixed".

The GRs equipped with oil coolers also have oil hoses that spontaneously split and pump all the oil out of the engines, in about 30 seconds. There is an updated all-metal oil cooler hose replacement for these, assuming the engine is still good.

They break valve springs a lot. Again, some have recalls/TSBs, some don't.

The VVT actuators like to come apart. The little M6 bolts just back out, and grind against the inside of the timing case making some noise... for a short time... before they just shear off and the actuator comes apart. This generally trashes the engine beyond reasonable repair (due to the stratospheric cost of parts... the VVT actuators alone are $350 each, and there are four of them, one for each camshaft). These are so problematic and so expensive, that the aftermarket even makes them (Dorman branded usually).

They sometimes have the steel sleeves for the cylinders slide out of the aluminum block. They just slip down, down, down, until the big end of the rod smashes into it breaking the bottom off and sending shrapnel all over the crankcase. These make a really cool cringeworthy noise if you catch one in the act of shredding itself.



The cartridge oil filters (mounted underneath) are easily overtightened, which causes all sort of fun air-chisel use to get them off, and sometimes ruins the oil pan upper assembly (the bottom of the crankcase, the actual "oil pan" is just a little steel sump down low). This upper part is a huge job, and depending on application requires subframe removal and/or engine removal to fix.

Water pumps are high failure items, many do not make it past about 80k miles, and again depending on application can be a real pain to change.

And also, somewhere in Japan someone must've earned a Ribbon of Shame over the newer Denso alternators' MUCH shorter life than we used to see. Back in the '80s and '90s and early '00s, Denso units were rarely ever seen bad. Today it is a very common occurrence.

To be fair, Toyota HAS done a lot to address much of the weakness and fragile nature of the GR engine family. Many things have been improved, and I would say 2015+ they are likely much better. Also, a lot of the issues never seemed to plague the truck versions (the 4.0L and the later [fake] Atkinson Cycle 3.5L). These engines also seemed to have dodge so many of the other Toyota engines of recent years that are plagued with rampant bad oil consumption problems (primarily the four cylinders). I also think that statistically they are generally pretty good for new cars for that first 100k miles. But after that, I just don't feel they are the legendary Toyotas of years gone by. I'd not bat an eye at a 1990 Camry with 300k miles on it. But a 2010? Doubtful.

I was watching a review of a 2020 Lexus RC something crossover and the reviewers were saying that although they don't usually talk about reliability, this engine had been around for so long that it was OK to say they were reliable. Maybe they should stick with not talking about reliability.

I know the ALH is a good (albeit primitive) engine, but the more I learn the better it looks.

Toyota's MZ engines, the family that the GR replaced, were (are, since there are still loads of them on the road) better. Sturdy, simple, reliable. Granted some of them had the oil sludge problem, but these were largely few and far between and most of these were due to neglect and not some inherent design flaw.

Which is why I forbade my sisters from getting a Sienna newer than 2006, since that was the last year for the 3.3L 3MZ-FE. And, one sister has nearly 200k and the other is almost at 300k and neither of those engines have ever had one hiccup of trouble with the engine proper. And I doubt they ever will. They'll likely still be motivating those minivans until their kids are grown and gone and they decide they do not want or need a minivan any longer.

TSBs fixed a lot of issue mentioned.

So you’d recommend a 3.3 from L/T ? I’d probably look at 2006 models since they would be the “newest”

The 3MZ-FE (the belt-driven all-aluminum VVT 3.3L V6) is a good engine, yes. Very good in fact. They may need an ignition coil once in a while, and sometimes the valve covers need to be resealed. Catalysts are common, as they are on most newer cars, but those are not hard to do and since there is one for each bank that halves the repair costs since they generally do not both fail together.

The switch from the MZ to GR is not model year specific, and the trucks (longitudinal) never had an MZ. They went straight from the old iron-block VZ family which was a 24v 3.4L straight to the 4.0L GR.

The Avalon was the first to get the GR, in 2005. RAV4 got it in 2006. The Sienna and Camry got it in 2007, the 2006 Camry actually had both the 3MZ and the 1MZ (3.0L) available in 2006, but the later 1MZ-FEs were all the updated design like the 3MZ (plastic intake, etc.). Highlander didn't make the switch during the 2008 model year.

Lexus is a bit easier to track, because both the ES and RX changed names from '330' to '350' when they made the switch, the ES also coincided with a body change. The GS got the GR engine with the 2006 body change, as did the IS.

I would also through out that the Avalon Hybrid gets a 4cyl engine, not the standard V6, so it is the only Avalon to be so equipped and is a pretty nice package. The Avalon, Camry, and Windom (Lexus ES here) all roll on the same platform, but the Avalon is longer and slightly wider but is closer in cost to the Lexus. While not popular, and it may not even be available anymore, the Avalon also got the 6 passenger package, which is a split bench front seat with a third seat belt, no center console, and a column mounted gear selector. It is like a Buick inside, but less crappy. They are comfy, though.