Tires: Michelin Primacy MXV4 or Energy MXV4 S8?

ducatipaso said:

a single case does not "prove" anything. you have not provided any empirical data to support your claims.

furthermore, if Michelins are the "best tires for a Jetta"... what are the best tires for a Golf? What about a Passat?

you also fail to define "performance"
performance is a subjective term as well

longevity?
lateral grip?
linear grip (as in snow/ice traction)?
noise/comfort (doubly subjective)?
appearance?
price?

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And neither is a host of information that really might not apply to/for me. Good to know? Absolutely. An easy example would be, fuel mileage, longevity, price per mile. Each is an objective measure, given a data set. Why are we starting with Michelin MXV4, why did I mentioned GY LS-H's? They were selected by the oem as 2/3 OE equipment. We already know some of the reasons: CHEAP (to them) Fuel mileage (probably most important), Lasts a min of 50,000 miles (4 year/50,000 miles warranty) Essentially your analysis, point of view has addressed NONE of those measures. Most every one said getting 50,000 miles our of a set of GY LS-H's is about pushing it. Getting over that, RARE!! Indeed I ordered a set of tires app 50,000 miles ago anticipating the GY LS-H's to have been toast. The set I have is at 100,000 and will probably be good to go till 120,000 miles. Now does this mean that I think GY LS-H's are the BEST!? FAR from it!! However, it does meet the above three parameters for starters.

If you are looking for a tire to be all things to all people, then perhaps you have unrealistic standards and like to phrase situations in such a way as to be unknowable. So if it is your thesis that it is untimately unknowable , I would say be careful about what you wish for for it is probably what you are finding. Indeed it is a wonder you put any tires on your car at all, given your supposed "standards". The other side is just as soon as this information is more common knowledge, they come out with new tires.

So if I can get 100k out of the worst of the three oem tires with a UTOQ of 360 compared to Michelin MXV4 UTOQ of 400, can I reasonably swag better wear out of the Michelin Primacy MVX4 UTOQ of 620 (35% better?) How much better? I don't know. If I get them, I will tell you in app 100k miles or sooner, if the reality doesn't pan out.

and herein lies the difference in opinion, and why I say that "performance" can be subjective. I equate performance to lateral and linear grip, and am not interested in a set of tires lasting 100K miles. 30K or more is perfectly satisfactory to me.

there is no "best" tire, unless it's the "best" tire for your needs... so declaring the Exalto or whatnot to be the "best tire for a jetta" is a completely opinion based statement, and is not fact.

ruking said:

And neither is a host of information that really might not apply to/for me. Good to know? Absolutely. An easy example would be, fuel mileage, longevity, price per mile. Each is an objective measure, given a data set. Why are we starting with Michelin MXV4, why did I mentioned GY LS-H's? They were selected by the oem as 2/3 OE equipment. We already know some of the reasons: CHEAP (to them) Fuel mileage (probably most important), Lasts a min of 50,000 miles (4 year/50,000 miles warranty) Essentially your analysis, point of view has addressed NONE of those measures. Most every one said getting 50,000 miles our of a set of GY LS-H's is about pushing it. Getting over that, RARE!! Indeed I ordered a set of tires app 50,000 miles ago anticipating the GY LS-H's to have been toast. The set I have is at 100,000 and will probably be good to go till 120,000 miles. Now does this mean that I think GY LS-H's are the BEST!? FAR from it!! However, it does meet the above three parameters for starters.

If you are looking for a tire to be all things to all people, then perhaps you have unrealistic standards and like to phrase situations in such a way as to be unknowable. So if it is your thesis that it is untimately unknowable , I would say be careful about what you wish for for it is probably what you are finding. Indeed it is a wonder you put any tires on your car at all, given your supposed "standards". The other side is just as soon as this information is more common knowledge, they come out with new tires.

So if I can get 100k out of the worst of the three oem tires with a UTOQ of 360 compared to Michelin MXV4 UTOQ of 400, can I reasonably swag better wear out of the Michelin Primacy MVX4 UTOQ of 620 (35% better?) How much better? I don't know, if I get them I will tell you in app 100k miles or sooner if it doesn't pan out.

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I couldn't have said it better myself. Michelins aren't on top for no reason, they give you good fuel economy, long wear, look and handle good. Michelin also has one of the best warranty programs where if something happens to the tire, lets say premature wear, they will replace your tire where other companies like Bridgestone might not do. Don't like Michelin Tires, thats your perference but for me and my family they have always been dependable even in Snow.

michelin isn't on top, they're taking you from behind

ducatipaso said:

michelin isn't on top, they're taking you from behind

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LOL !

ducatipaso said:

and herein lies the difference in opinion, and why I say that "performance" can be subjective. I equate performance to lateral and linear grip, and am not interested in a set of tires lasting 100K miles. 30K or more is perfectly satisfactory to me.

there is no "best" tire, unless it's the "best" tire for your needs... so declaring the Exalto or whatnot to be the "best tire for a jetta" is a completely opinion based statement, and is not fact.

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Again, I differ with you. Again this is ALSO objective!! Lateral grip, for example can indeed be measured. What test proceedures/protocols that used to be within the purview of lofty (or not so lofty) car rags; have been able to be done by anyone (for a long time actually) with money to spend for stick to the windshield measuring devices (under $2k)

Free tires or gobs of money to purchase them by consumers like YOU (and me when I have to) (in the case of a rag like consumer reports) never hurts either. If one just likes to change tires at 30k or less, hey, I am sure the tire companies LOVE that!! So the best is to look for the satisfaction guaranteed, slap the measuring devices on the vehicle and do your own SOTP evaluation and save the data to a excel or PDF file!! Got a laptop? Publish the data hot off the press from STARBUCKS WI FI!! Bring back the tires and get something else.

you are missing my point.

PERFORMANCE has many facets. if YOUR definition of performance holds true, then they'd be running Exalto's or whatnot in F1 and Le Mans, etc.

GRIP is my facet of performance. It comes at a cost of longevity
LONGEVITY is your facet of performance. It comes at a cost of grip

This is why I am saying that declaring that a tire that lasts 100K miles as the BEST TIRE FOR A JETTA is a subjective opinion based upon YOUR needs in a tire.

Longevity does not equal performance for all persons, therefore stating that it makes a tire BEST is purely a subjective opinion.

Get it now?

Indeed, you are missing mine!! What you are saying is not subjective at all. You just think that it is. This is not to say there are not subjective measures, there are a plethora.

..."GRIP is my facet of performance"... LONGEVITY is your facet of performance. It comes at a cost of grip


I just told you how grip is not only measurable, but how even folks like us can measure it!! Longevity? Again, I said farther back how it can easily be measured.

ruking said:

(snip) Indeed I ordered a set of tires app 50,000 miles ago anticipating the GY LS-H's to have been toast. The set I have is at 100,000 and will probably be good to go till 120,000 miles. (snip)

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__. Oh, man, that's *sweet*! I got OEM Michelins on my '02 sedan - they were still in pretty good shape approaching 90K but I got nervous about thunderstorm season and swapped them out for a set of +4's. I prolly could have gotten some more miles out of them safely -- they were worn very evenly and were still about perfect; no bumps or out or round, no worn spots, no balance problems. Man, you're going to love your Michelin's but (as I stated earlier in this thread) I don't recommend that you buy the 205's. I think that the 195's are the best compromise for our car and the performance parameters that we consider important.

For sure I am staying with the OEM sized tires. Most of the reasoning is as you have said.

ruking said:

Indeed, you are missing mine!! What you are saying is not subjective at all. You just think that it is. This is not to say there are not subjective measures, there are a plethora.

..."GRIP is my facet of performance"... LONGEVITY is your facet of performance. It comes at a cost of grip


I just told you how grip is not only measurable, but how even folks like us can measure it!! Longevity? Again, I said farther back how it can easily be measured.

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I understand completely your point. Both GRIP and LONGEVITY can be measured OBJECTIVELY.

However, stating that one of these uniquely different, objectively measurable performance characteristics makes something the BEST is SUBJECTIVE, because what's best for YOU is not best for everyone else.

It's no different than saying Cokers are better than Firestones because the whitewalls are whiter.

That is why (given the original posters post) he said up front what factors are/were important. From that, you can get more into the ball park as to which is "BEST."

Given your factors, it would be a no brainer to say either of the two Michelins, he mentioned would not be to your liking.

I do like the Primacys better. They sure grip better and handle better. Ride is a little rougher and I do notice than the car does not roll quite as far when coasting (slows a little quicker). But added safety will pay off big time, I think.

--Nate

added safety? huh? what?

PDJetta said:

I do like the Primacys better. They sure grip better and handle better. Ride is a little rougher and I do notice than the car does not roll quite as far when coasting (slows a little quicker). But added safety will pay off big time, I think.

--Nate

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Tell me how the Primacy's work out for you in the long run, I might get those tires to when my go out. For some reason, I have always felt safe with a Michelin Tire.

Will Do. I feel that they are safer than the Energys I had because the Primacys grip the road better and the car stops faster when the road is wet. I tried it one night by stomping on the brakes on a wet road. I figure swerves would be safer, as well, especially when the road is wet.

--Nate

PDJetta said:

Will Do. I feel that they are safer than the Energys I had because the Primacys grip the road better and the car stops faster when the road is wet. I tried it one night by stomping on the brakes on a wet road. I figure swerves would be safer, as well, especially when the road is wet.

--Nate

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My Exalto's spin when I Push the gas, but in all other aspects a good tire. It's rated at 60,000km, how about the Primacy's?

VOLKSWAGEN_JETTA_TDI said:

My Exalto's spin when I Push the gas, but in all other aspects a good tire. It's rated at 60,000km, how about the Primacy's?

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The Primacys are rated/warrantied for 60,000 miles. I believe the Exalto is a bit lower, at about 40,000 miles.

--Nate

PDJetta said:

I feel that they are safer than the Energys I had because the Primacys grip the road better and the car stops faster when the road is wet. I tried it one night by stomping on the brakes on a wet road. I figure swerves would be safer, as well, especially when the road is wet.

--Nate

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OMFG...

WDM said:

OMFG...

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ditto

PDJetta said:

The Primacys are rated/warrantied for 60,000 miles. I believe the Exalto is a bit lower, at about 40,000 miles.

--Nate

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Are these the Primacy MXV4's?

Yes. Here are the specs:

http://www.michelinman.com/tires/luxury-performance-touring/primacy-mxv4/23279/#sizes-and-specifications

By "Swerving" I meant if someone pulls out in front of me and I have to take evasive action. I normally drive quite safely. I just feel the margin of safety is greater w/ the Primacys over the Energys.

--Nate

PD -how are you jugding this 'safety' difference?

PDJetta said:

Yes. Here are the specs:

http://www.michelinman.com/tires/luxury-performance-touring/primacy-mxv4/23279/#sizes-and-specifications

By "Swerving" I meant if someone pulls out in front of me and I have to take evasive action. I normally drive quite safely. I just feel the margin of safety is greater w/ the Primacys over the Energys.

--Nate

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WWW.TireRack.com really has this nailed. As I have said in past posts and Ducatipaso has come to agree, (don't want to put words in your mouth) Tire rack conducts tests in the metrics that over the years have shown to be practical. Some examples are Lateral grip .91 G's dry/89 G's /wet, 50-0 stopping distance, dry/wet, etc etc.

So all one has to do to compare tires is to look at the objective test results: for example: Michelin MXV4, Primary MXV4, Exalto A/S. If one wants to check, surprisingly while there are differences between the Primacy MXV4 and the Exalto, they are (dare I say) small, and it might take an extremely well developed SOTP to detect the subtle differences.

You can even compare apples to oranges so to speak. This can have utility as to actually qualify and quantify some of those SOTP .( ok, ok, SUBJECTIVE) issues.

Michelins hands down are the best tires. If anyone can afford them, get them ! No tire is perfect but the Michelins, especially mine the Exalto's come very close. Some people might not like Michelin, thats their choice. Im sure Falken, Kumho, and Hankook make good tires too. LOL !

VOLKSWAGEN_JETTA_TDI said:

Michelins hands down are the best tires. If anyone can afford them, get them ! No tire is perfect but the Michelins, especially mine the Exalto's come very close. Some people might not like Michelin, thats their choice. Im sure Falken, Kumho, and Hankook make good tires too. LOL !

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Well indeed there is a certain amount of truth to Ducatipaso's postings.

Again for example, that is why the miles are an important metric and as I have said an important performance parameter. Now Ducatipaso is content to change tires in the 30-50k mile range. As I understand him, his important parameters are grip (lateral and straight) So he needs to look for tires that have similar to better performance (objective) charateristics (i.e.,) to the Michelin Exalto. While this might appear consumptive, he has the option to get the cheaper to cheapest tire in his performance parameters.

Basically if the Michelin's costs 100 per and lasts 50k miles and another costs 40-50 and lasts 25 k miles, essentially the cost per mile driven is the same. Indeed he can come pretty close (or even cheaper) to the per mile cost (for the more expensive Michelins) for his driving style. Another advantage is he gets more variety.

ruking said:

Well indeed there is a certain amount of truth to Ducatipaso's postings.

Again for example, that is why the miles are an important metric and as I have said an important performance parameter. Now Ducatipaso is content to change tires in the 30-50k mile range. As I understand him, his important parameters are grip (lateral and straight) So he needs to look for tires that have similar to better performance (objective) charateristics (i.e.,) to the Michelin Exalto. While this might appear consumptive, he has the option to get the cheaper to cheapest tire in his performance parameters.

Basically if the Michelin's costs 100 per and lasts 50k miles and another costs 40-50 and lasts 50 k miles, essentially the cost per mile driven is the same. Indeed he can come pretty close (or even cheaper) to the per mile cost (for the more expensive Michelins) for his driving style. Another advantage is he gets more variety.

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Cool, I understand your point, but still im the type who has to have everything premium. I don't like driving with cheap tires. I like everything brand-name, and I am willing to pay the premium price.

Yay! Someone gets it!

Now, to cast another line:

Here are the tires that I have narrowed my next purchase to:

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I'm shying from the Pirellis due to horrible tramlining on the set I had on my Audi A4, but then again those were 245s on an AWD car...

I like the Bridgestone for the price, but...

The Eagle F1 is in the lead due to the amazing grip I got out of the non All Season set of F1s I had on my silver TDI. They were like GLUE but only lasted 35K whereas the Bridgestones will probably go 40K.

Notice that the performance I demand doesn't come cheap, so yes, I am consumptive at 2x the rate of other folks here but I have a 2x larger grin on my face when I buzz down skyline at a spirited pace.

VOLKSWAGEN_JETTA_TDI said:

Michelins hands down are the best tires. If anyone can afford them, get them ! No tire is perfect but the Michelins, especially mine the Exalto's come very close.

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That is trolling, blind brand loyalty and/or ignorance of the highest order. It would seem that PDJetta isn't confident of the capability of his tires on anything but dry road and you don't care what your tires' capabilities or weaknesses are as long as they're branded to your liking. Great for a laugh though...

WDM said:

That is trolling, blind brand loyalty and/or ignorance of the highest order. It would seem that PDJetta isn't confident of the capability of his tires on anything but dry road and you don't care what your tires' capabilities or weaknesses are as long as they're branded to your liking. Great for a laugh though...

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I bet he's French Canadian and victim of teh brainwash