www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You

Order your TDIClub merchandise and help support TDIClub


Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 12th, 2018, 20:55   #31
KERMA
 
KERMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: here
Default

the P2002 fault relates to the dynamic exhaust temperature behavior. More precisely, it relates to the dynamic temperature behavior before and after the DPF.

Supposedly the dynamic temperature drop or temperature change based on pressure and so forth (delta T) should follow the internal modeling within a tolerance band. (1st order lowpass PT1 filter characteristics for the geeks) For example if the transient delta t is lower than expected based on a number of things, supposedly that indicates a dpf delete pipe or you knocked out the contents of the filter so it's an "empty pipe". If the correlation with transient delta T is way way too low, then that indicates a failed sensor ("implausible" sensor), which sets a different fault.

P2002 is the "low correlation for delta T but not low enough so that we know for sure it's a bad sensor" fault.

So it could indicate an exhaust temp sensor (or pressure sensor) that is "kinda bad" but not completely failed. This is usually what it is. Sensor "going bad" but not quite "failed" yet.

However, the calculation depends on the internal airflow model to tell it What the dynamic delta T should be. One of the inputs to this model is.... wait for it.... the MAF of course.

So yes, the K&N could have caused the fault.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT (lol) the DPF likely HAS NOT FAILED

Replace the maf and or pressure/ temperature sensors, you will be fine. A multimeter and or logging could tell you where it hurts

edit: also check for boost leaks, very common to have a leaking o-ring in a boost hose in those cars
__________________
HP is for show, TQ is for go.
celebrating http://www.kermatdi.com since 2002
kermatdi on facebook
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. - Neils Bohr

Last edited by KERMA; September 13th, 2018 at 05:59.
KERMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2018, 05:57   #32
740GLE
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NH
Default

If the DPF isn't cracked what would explain the soot on the tail pipe and soot in the EGR filter, dealer FUD?

Maybe a P0401 is around the corner.
__________________
Hers: 2015 Passat SEL (NOS) w/ VW fix and Malone Stage 2.
His: 2017 Alltrack SE, waiting for TSI to TDI conversion kits to be released.
Bought back 2010 Sedan, cog swapper, build date 07/09, BB 6/7/16. 2012 Passat, Roof+Nav, build date 05/12, BB 7/11
740GLE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2018, 06:19   #33
KERMA
 
KERMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: here
Default

I say just find the sketchy sensor and replace it and no more problems. Or at least the P2002 will go away.

But IMO the dealer blaming the K&N is not totally out to lunch even if it might be something of a stretch. Over the years I've seen too many failed maf sensors with a K&N to ignore that possibility, regardless.

and check for the boost leak at the o-rings
__________________
HP is for show, TQ is for go.
celebrating http://www.kermatdi.com since 2002
kermatdi on facebook
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. - Neils Bohr
KERMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2018, 07:40   #34
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut Vendor
 
oilhammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: St Louis
Fuel Economy: fantastic
Default

If there is soot post DPF, it is a textbook cracked DPF. Common.
__________________
oilhammer
www.cardocautomotive.com
oilhammer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2018, 07:53   #35
Dannyboy
Veteran Member
 
Dannyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Winnipeg,MB
Fuel Economy: All good on the motion lotion
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
I say just find the sketchy sensor and replace it and no more problems. Or at least the P2002 will go away.

But IMO the dealer blaming the K&N is not totally out to lunch even if it might be something of a stretch. Over the years I've seen too many failed maf sensors with a K&N to ignore that possibility, regardless.

and check for the boost leak at the o-rings
I've had two MAF sensors and one compressor wheel eroded because of K&N filters in my earlier days with my 1.8t. I even bought the 'XD' version as it was supposed to have better filtration and even bought 2 of them as I thought first one was faulty. I only bought them because engine transplant didn't have room for proper airbox.
Yep K&N are one of them companies that claim the world but have yet to deliver a proper product. I biased because the damage their product caused to my personal vehicle
Dannyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2018, 08:29   #36
KERMA
 
KERMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: here
Default

probably beating a dead horse here, but might be worth repeating.

K&N may help on an old carbureted gasser or any gasser where the power output is directly affected by airflow. You can practically dyno a gasser by the maf reading. BUT our TDI's are NOT airflow limited. They are a lean burn by their very nature and adding slightly more air (as these filters claim) will NOT add power. repeat after me.... FUEL THROTTLE

In fact the air charge is regulated in a closed loop in the 2015 USA market cars, so any additional airflow will be cut back by the ecu anyway making any potential gains a moot point.

of course these statements are a vast oversimplification but hopefully convey the applicable concepts in a general way

from a practical point of view, the OP will need to pass the california emissions inspection. I don't think they allow any CEL. So he may be able to get by for the time being by finding the errant sensor and or boost leak and get that CEL tooken care of without having to go thru the whole dpf replacement thing.
__________________
HP is for show, TQ is for go.
celebrating http://www.kermatdi.com since 2002
kermatdi on facebook
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. - Neils Bohr
KERMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2018, 10:06   #37
740GLE
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NH
Default

Well said!
__________________
Hers: 2015 Passat SEL (NOS) w/ VW fix and Malone Stage 2.
His: 2017 Alltrack SE, waiting for TSI to TDI conversion kits to be released.
Bought back 2010 Sedan, cog swapper, build date 07/09, BB 6/7/16. 2012 Passat, Roof+Nav, build date 05/12, BB 7/11
740GLE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2018, 19:33   #38
NorCalTDI79
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Folsom, CA
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMA View Post
probably beating a dead horse here, but might be worth repeating.

K&N may help on an old carbureted gasser or any gasser where the power output is directly affected by airflow. You can practically dyno a gasser by the maf reading. BUT our TDI's are NOT airflow limited. They are a lean burn by their very nature and adding slightly more air (as these filters claim) will NOT add power. repeat after me.... FUEL THROTTLE

In fact the air charge is regulated in a closed loop in the 2015 USA market cars, so any additional airflow will be cut back by the ecu anyway making any potential gains a moot point.

of course these statements are a vast oversimplification but hopefully convey the applicable concepts in a general way

from a practical point of view, the OP will need to pass the california emissions inspection. I don't think they allow any CEL. So he may be able to get by for the time being by finding the errant sensor and or boost leak and get that CEL tooken care of without having to go thru the whole dpf replacement thing.
Thank you!! Appreciate this. May have to go to my independent as I'm sure the dealer will not do this
NorCalTDI79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2018, 10:18   #39
NorCalTDI79
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Folsom, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalTDI79 View Post
Thank you!! Appreciate this. May have to go to my independent as I'm sure the dealer will not do this
Funny thing, over the weekend after not driving the car for three days the CEL was off upon startup in the morning.

I am going to see about properly diagnosing it as the dealer is pretty useless at this point.

Still working with K&N at getting a claim going.
NorCalTDI79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2018, 09:18   #40
Kevinski4
 
Kevinski4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Nebraska
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer View Post
It has always been puzzling to me why anyone would bother to use these air filters in the first place, as they do NOTHING positive, and you cannot force feed a tiny little turbocharger by installing one anyway.
However, given the all-too-common issue of the DPF cracking (Volkswagen has a TSB about this, nothing new), and the fact that there is pretty much zero chances of an aftermarket air filter causing this*, I don't know what to say. Besides, no idea why the dealer would really care one way or the other, Volkswagen is the one footing the bill, and it isn't likely they are requesting the old air filter from the car. That is just dumb.
*now, increased cylinder bore wear, turbine blade wear, and yes MAF values being off as well as outright failure, can and does happen with these subpar air filters. It has been proven in labs outside those of K&N, but the marketing folks are still making money. So, I'd say let K&N fight for you... I still think they'll do nothing.
I've seen a lot of cars with cracked DPFs later on in their life. I've also seen a handful that cracked VERY early (25-35k miles). Every single one of those cars that had very early (and in two cases, repeated) DPF failures (cracked) had aftermarket "high flow" air filters or air intakes on them. So from what I have seen, there is definitely a direct correlation between the accuracy of the MAF scaling and the life of the DPF. Which shouldn't be that much of a surprise, really.

Last edited by Kevinski4; October 29th, 2018 at 13:55.
Kevinski4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18th, 2018, 04:25   #41
06bluebeetletdi
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Middlesex, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalTDI79 View Post
I have a small battle on my hands between VW of America and the local dealer (Folsom Lake VW) after it has been determined that CEL & code P2002 that the DPF IS bad. Soot in the tailpipe and build up in the DPF filter that the DPF/catalytic converter assembly need to be replaced on my 2012 VW Golf TDI The dealer and VW of America is refusing to help after their Master Tech noted that my car had a replacement K&N Filter element in the factory airbox. Nobody at the dealer has ever made mention in the past that this could potentially void the warranty.
How many TDIs do dealers see now? Next, how many have k&n filters? Then, how many have had warranty denied for this reason? The dealer probably didn't know about this unlikely situation, and wouldn't have thought anything about it, other than the usual recommendation to stick with the stock filter as that is what the engine was designed for.
06bluebeetletdi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2018, 05:20   #42
740GLE
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NH
Default

Agreed, with dealers not knowing majority of the failure modes for TDIs, they certainly won't know X part or Y thingy will void warranty until VWoA tells them it's voided.
__________________
Hers: 2015 Passat SEL (NOS) w/ VW fix and Malone Stage 2.
His: 2017 Alltrack SE, waiting for TSI to TDI conversion kits to be released.
Bought back 2010 Sedan, cog swapper, build date 07/09, BB 6/7/16. 2012 Passat, Roof+Nav, build date 05/12, BB 7/11
740GLE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2018, 12:03   #43
Cheapskatepilot
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pennsylvania
Default

OP.....if im not mistaken doesnt the magnusson moss act require dealers or manufacturers to PROVE that (in this case) the K&N filter DIRECTLY CAUSED the failure of the equipment to be fixed under the warranty? Your response from the volkswagen rep stated that the filter you used "may" or "could" have attributed to your issue......but i bet they would have an uphill battle convincing a judge that your air filter IS the direct cause of the failure.

Maybe im wrong....just my opinion.....which is worth exactly what you paid for it
Cheapskatepilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2018, 12:13   #44
flargabarg
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default

Long but useful read about MM and modifications.

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7492

K&N is much less of a modification, but can still be ground for the dealer to stand on to deny coverage.
flargabarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2018, 13:30   #45
bizzle
Veteran Member
 
bizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Southern California
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flargabarg View Post
Long but useful read about MM and modifications.

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7492

K&N is much less of a modification, but can still be ground for the dealer to stand on to deny coverage.
While it's important to not believe in the myth of a "golden ticket" for mods, it's also equally important not to swing entirely the other way and believe that nothing is allowed.

The person in this thread stated the filter was a standard replacement for the stock filter and installed in the stock housing. A drop in filter, regardless of manufacturer, is going to qualify as general maintenance in a way that a *cone* filter fitted to an aftermarket CAI would not.

Regardless, the issue is realistically moot since, for hopefully obvious reasons, this specific case doesn't have much chance of making it in front of a judge (and not because the client is wrong).
bizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2012 Mk6 VW Golf TDI egr/dpf delete questions Luddite1811 TDI Power Enhancements 11 February 21st, 2017 14:48
WOW NEW 2012 VW Golf TDI offered by VW of Langhorne 3193 TDI Cars for Sale/Wanted 4 October 9th, 2013 15:37
2012 VW Golf TDI 4dr w/ Tech offered by VW of Langhorne 3193 TDI Cars for Sale/Wanted 0 September 4th, 2013 23:14


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.19325 seconds with 11 queries
[Output: 133.86 Kb. compressed to 112.43 Kb. by saving 21.43 Kb. (16.01%)]